Leakage from SL -> Teen Grid

I got the impression Hiro was being off-handedly accused. Whether the wordsmithing was sufficient to avoid AR, I neither know nor care. But that was my impression. If Hiro overreacted, I can at least understand why.

I suspect Hiro isn't interested in selling on the Teen Grid, but is aware of the free advertising being provided by Lindens using donated content. Without going back and re-reading, I believe Hiro mentioned that and something about teens graduating to the main grid who are familiar with content (and creator names) bc of this advertising.

Also, if the "Donation Request" thread linked to is not actively discussed, how do newer SL content creators even know of this opportunity to contribute and (selfishly) gain some advertising leverage? I've been on since March and while I recall something about donations, I doubt many others have. So the question in my mind is: should there be a standard policy page outlining the donation program (or whatever it's called)? Something like that might diffuse any issues before they become more than they should... like this thread. Perhaps we could keep things civil and suggest how the Lindens could communicate the donation program (assuming that "whether" one is even appropriate has already been answered since it IS already occurring).

I'm not one for cutting off discussions. I just think it's silly, but go on.

It's amazing how my misunderstanding of an inworld game can turn an already precarious thread into a ludicrous hijack over the semantics of what 'gambling' actually is. I think everyone knew what I meant when I asked if Tringo was a form of gambling.

I posted my concerns about introducing what I thought was gambling to the teen grid because I have seen firsthand a growth in gambling amongst kids. If I was not a father I could really care less, but I have seen it ruin adults just like any other addiction - drugs, food, etc.

That being said I am all for gambling in both the real world and in SL, but only amongst those that are legally regarded to be able to make appropriate choices for themselves. Teenagers do not fit this category.

I gamble a bit, but the entire time I keep in mind that the odds are overwhelmingly against me. People who do not realize this get swept up into gambling; the 'Gambler's Folly' so to speak.

Do I lose sleep over those people? Hell no, let them destroy themselves. It's part of being a member of a free society, adults do what they choose to do. But as a participant in a free society, I feel there is an obligation to protect those that are unaware, such as minors.

Now, where's good place to go play Tringo?

Again, I don't see whats wrong with discussing what is and is not considered gambling. It is true that one of the parties involved in the discussion or myself should have probably started a new thread for this, and I am sorry for the unintended hijack. But that doesn't mean the discussion is ludicrous. I have stated that I have no qualms about gambling either. I was just trying to propose that not everyone may see it the same way.

I like the Ice Dragon resort in Eaton, Tringo 24x7.

Leakage is normal. I have a niece I introduced to Second Life, I certainly intend to share the code of my chess board with her.

What's so strange about it ? People DO comunicate in RL too.

Ack sorry for the misinformation...I did say I had only played the once .

It must be that short term memory loss. Actually it is short, medium and long term memory loss. Keep hoping that my avatar's 25 year old vivacity will rub off on me .
Cali

OMG!! WHY WEREN'T MY KATANAS CHOSEN for the TEEN GRID!!!

Is this true?

That if you admitted (these two players) you violated the SL TOS you were allowed to have a teen grid account?

erm I am a bit confused about the question...I didn't admit anyone...or anything...and if anyone says I did I am phoning my lawyer....

Erm...I think that what I said in my post was true, although if it causes a big furore on the SL adult forums my son will probably want to strangle me for saying it. If you think about it, it is unlikely that getting into SL as a minor would lead to a lifetime ban.
Cali

Aboslute 100% fluff and bluster, yet again. I've actually accused you of nothing - but that's just a minor complication for you, isn't it. But here you go, I'll accuse you of something now - you're a drama queen as we say in the UK. You're all words and no action. You simply seek to create an issue, to surround yourself in attention. You have no intention of actually backing that up.

Please slander me. Say something you feel I might react about. I'm ready, if you think you have something. Or accept that you've gone overboard about a topic and you haven't been willing to back that up, you'd prefer to take some fake moral high road of slander accusations and abuse reports. I won't run to abuse reports and pathetic rumblings about slander. See, there is a difference.

U guys do know that the company Donnerwood Media, that bought the RL rights to Tringo is run by former RealNetworks executives and Philip was the Vice President of RealNetworks for 31/2 years.

Maybe it's just a friend helping a friend

*coughs*

If I may, I'd like to set up an example using your chess board.

Imagine for a moment that chess becomes a major SL activity such that it becomes a centerpiece of attraction just like Tringo; entire malls are built around it. And Stephane's chess program becomes very popular on the Main Grid and becomes a source of revenue. Now along comes someone who wants a piece of that revenue and codes their own chess app and competition ensues.

Of course, both of these could be shared with a niece or nephew on the Teen Grid, and I suspect most everyone would understand that "people DO communicate in RL". And if these teens go off and create a business around the code given to them so much the better (they could just as easily be getting it online like so many people lifting logos and whatnot). They still have to overcome all the hurdles of any business - especially that of establishing a reputation for quality product.

However, imagine now the other person donates their code for a few Linden-sponsored games on the Teen Grid... just to show people what can be done. And let's say that the game play is sufficiently unique that by virtue of using that code, it's apparent which version (of the two chess programs mentioned) the Linden's are using.

Does that not constitute a form of endorsement?

I mean, if I were a noob and didn't know, wouldn't I be safe in assuming that this particular game must be at least as good as all the competitors since Lindens are using it? Or is there some big disclaimer that the Lindens post that clearly states the product may or may not function properly and is ONLY a donated item?

Furthermore, if I were setting up a business (e.g. Chess House Retailers) and looking to invest in a game, why waste my time researching options when the Lindens are okay with using that application? Wouldn't they use the Best as an example even if they had to post some legalistic disclaimer?

Now imagine that I'm 17 and have started a nice little franchise on the Teen Grid. When I turn 18 and move to the Main Grid, why would I bother with a different chess application? It worked well on the TG. And the Lindens still used it as an example. I'll just buy the option to use it on the Main Grid and get started building. I wouldn't waste time even looking at the competition.

-

The problem I see and believe is at the heart of Hiro's questions is one of tacit endorsement by the Lindens. Is it a huge issue? No more than any other issue in SL, as far as I'm concerned. But why Lindens need to be involved in any manner is beyond me. Maybe I just have more faith in the teenagers' abilities.

I think what Merwan was asking in his roundabout way was why were two people who admitted to lying about their age rewarded by then being granted access to the teen grid?

Bingo has been adjudicated a "gambling game" in numerous jurisdictions.

What is it about Tringo that makes it so different from Bingo that Bingo is gambling, and Tringo isn't?

If you argue that $L are not money, then slot machines and blackjack tables would also be acceptable on the teen grid?

My children are past their teens, but as a parent of teens, I would not want "games played for money" on the teen grid. If tringo is on the teen grid, then it should be played for "points" and not for convertible-to-US$ Lindens.

Buster

Tringo is a game of skill. While there is a random element, that random element is precisely the same for every player; two theoretical "perfect Tringo players" ought to get the same exact score in a round.

Thus, Tringo is not a gambling game of chance; it is a contest.

Funny how this went from having a game from main sl to gambling....

Actually them using the most known game there isnt so bad, its not giving the creator more money or commercialism...i dont even know who the creator is, just that what great luck and timing for them and great item they did make.

As for gambling- im sorry but your kids gamble all the time, "they take a risk"from a post earlier of definition of gambling)when they ask someone out, learn how to drive, learn how to walk, being on a transplant list, taking chemo...we could go on with the "risks" kids take each day....since "taking a risk" is one of the definitions for gambling.
oh and adults gamble too with same list

Now as to the moral of "gambling".. there was mention of "donations" and such....here is an example : Jane Doe donated lets say 10$ to her church's fundraiser event for a ticket to win a free car wash....i see gambling in this, dont you? she is taking a risk, plus there is a prize at the end....

But the gambling being debated is Casino Gambling ....poker,slots, etc etc....If not ALL players donate to a plot it isnt casino gambling..it is just gambling...

I have 2 teens....one is 16 and one will be 14 soon....what is funny is that to them Second Life looks like a game and is a game....tho they tell me it is a lame one for it dont have quests and not like WOW,Everquest,Giuld Wars, and etc. -they say it looks boring LOL


I did see a post for donations for the teen grid.
there are wayy too many threads to try and find it tho lol
but did see these when i try to find then stop after 15 minutes or so lol

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/3/2b/43484/1.html

Hiro said:

" I don't think Linden Lab should be in the business of promoting specific content creators over others."

I agree completely. Of course.

That anyone should even think that one has to be "jealous" to bring up concerns of fundamental fairness, much less actually accuse the person of being personally "jealous," boggles my mind.

And December - I wasn't here in December. Many were doubtless too busy in December to notice. Another mention of it here and there wouldn't have been amiss. In the interests of fairness. Which is a very good principle.

coco

It's open access now.

I have no idea about the detail of it...but lots of kids play on their parents' accounts, and I don't see how you stop that.
Cali

Dear me, the Lindens thought the teen grid would enjoy a game of Tringo, and people shout cries of favouritism! The Lindens will end up being paralysed by having to make available every single thing available, in order to use the thing they want to, to give some enjoyment to those on the teen grid. That's totally unworkable.

Shall I tell you what boggles the mind? People crying foul over the teen grid being allowed to play a game of Tringo and making a mountain out of a mole hill because of it.

And yes, I do believe that part of the issue was spawned through jealousy. That and stamping of feet because mummy's playing favourite in some people's eyes.

I understand that the Lindens wanted the teens to have Tringo. That is a GOOD thing.

That they need to be more careful in making sure everyone has equal access to this sort of thing is clear.

That a person can bring up criticisms of that, and a request that everyone get a chance at it, has nothing to do with jealousy.

One can uphold principles for reasons beyond personal gain.

coco

Yes I know they can. Some people also look out for themselves by pretending that they're looking out for everyone, because it's an easier argument to put forward. Could be either in this case, I guess. But at the core feelings of unfairness do often come from jealousy. And a lot of how you're percieved comes from what you say and how you say it.

But why should the Lindens give equal access to this? This belief in a fundamental right that if one person's products are used on the teen grid, then everybody else should automatically have the same right makes me scratch my head. What really makes you think you're entitled to that? Why is that owed to you?

I don't see "equal access" has any part in this if not for "personal gain". What is there about "equal access" that has to do with donations? The Lindens made a post, an announcement. Many saw it and contributed items. Some saw it and didn't. Others were interested about "making profit" and so asked question about cross-grid transfers for those purposes.

Equal access has nothing, nothing, to do with donating anything. The Teen Grid is no secret. All anyone has to do is ask about it and a Linden can refer that person to someone who can answer.

I cannot believe anyone's nose would get out of joint because their "this or that item" was not provided "equal access" to the teen grid - especially since we are talking donations here -- donations have an elemnt of charity. Charity is usualy for altruistic purposes - not for recognition, profit or self-aggrandizement.

This whole issue is mind-boggling.

Coco,

Linden Lab is under no obligation to provide equal access to anyone to have their game, or their clothing, or their gadget, or anything else be part of the teen grid. They could hand pick the content they want if they so desired. It is their system, and their right to choose who they select.

Furthermore, this all was announced, and discussed. They asked for donations for the teen grid quite ahwile ago. I agree with the main sentiment of those responding to this thread - it is much ado about nothing. One can uphold principles to a fault.

"But why should the Lindens give equal access to this? This belief in a fundamental right that if one person's products are used on the teen grid, then everybody else should automatically have the same right makes me scratch my head. What really makes you think you're entitled to that? Why is that owed to you?"

As it turned out, equal access WAS offered, at least to those who were on the game in December.

I don't see how anyone could take issue with keeping things like this fair to all, even in a game. And especially if said game involves rl money profits.

The charity aspect of it, as well as the fact that it is on the teen grid, are both beside the point in terms of business advantages conferred through this program.

Given there are many good reasons for suggesting that this program be open to all on the main grid, it seems unnecessary, unfair, and a too personal attack to accuse a person who brings up a concern about fairness to be acting out of jealousy.

Moreover, is there some reason NOT to solicit everyone for objects for the teen grid? Apparently not, since that's exactly what they did, back in December.

I'm fairly certain that the Lindens weren't acting out of jealousy when they did this, either.

The fact that a player comes along, notices that Tringo is now in the teen grid, is told that the Lindens put it there, and questions the fairness of that, is hardly indicative of some sort of personal flaw.

That individual was interested in fairness to all; pure and simple, end of story. That the "all" includes him doesn't detract from that.

coco

P.S. Cristiano, I assumed that they WOULD pick and choose among the submissions, if they got enough to be able to do so. That is what one would expect from a privately-held game, as a sort of contest almost, where they would choose the winners based on merit of and need for that item.

What one would NOT expect, even from a privately owned game, is that they would just pick things without first soliciting submissions. Hiro wasn't aware that they had been solicited back in December, although apparently not very visibly so. Thus, Hiro objected to something that appeared unfair to other players.

That is a reasonable way to feel. That doesn't indicate that Hiro is "jealous" or in any way whatsoever out of line to draw attention to what seemed an apparent inequity when he first brought it up.

coco