Apparent failure of the "new rules"

Okay so this is kind of an "I told you so" thread, and no one likes that but I feel it's a valid observation anyway, so I'm gonna say it.

The "new rules" about not attacking people personally in the forum dont seem to be working at all to me.

Additionaly, the widely accepted idea that the minute "that person" was banned, that things would be all rosy again has also proven to be wrong.
Or at least it seems that way to me.

What I see is that certain members (often referred to as being "FIC" who were always attacking "that person" have not stopped their behaviour now that "that person" is gone. They are just attacking other people instead. The number of threads lately with f*ck this and f*ck that (or f*ck you), on them, and people calling each other *ssholes and *sshats is pretty f*cking high lately! These are all personal attacks.

My theory always was that getting mad is human nature and that no legislation to the contrary would really stop it, but the "new rules" were implemented anyway. I dont think they work that well, although now they are here I would not get rid of them.

What do you think? Do you think things are really different now that "that person" is gone? Do you think that the new rules have stopped anyone attacking anyone else in a personal way? Do you think there is any other soultion?

Yes there is still lots and lots of nastiness on these forums.

Baiting, inflammatory topics, necroposting, crossthreading, and lumping into groups are equally as bad as personal attacks.

Lets have a little consideration what we post, folks.

Something I don't understand is 'that person' is supposedly gone from the forums...yet still posts at times? If someone could explain this...

There was only really one new rule, as far as I could tell, which is elevating the punishment to include banning from the game if you are banned from the forums. I think that is a bad rule.

And yes, I think there is another solution, which I plan to put out as a separate thread in my suggestions for "Forum Reform." I haven't done that yet, because the general forum has been way to unstable since last Friday, which was when I was going to put them out.

In short, however (and not well written yet), they will include these two ideas (plus a couple more):

1. Get rid of the rule that means if you are banned from the forums you will be banned from the game.

2. Remove the sentence from the TOS that says something like, "feel free to call each other liars and trolls, but know we strongly discourage it," and enforce the rule against personal attacks more strictly.

I think both those are what is needed, and without them, the forums won't get better.

coco

P.S. Zsuzanna, he doesn't still post. Some people think that because they think - or did think - that I was posting for him, but that isn't true.

Well I am in the process of re-thinking about this topic so I am not sure but...

I still strongly lean towards this sentence being reworded as:

"Being what they are, people *will* call you a liar and a troll, but don't let it bother you and try not to get mad back."

I think I'll have to wait and see... I think the assumption that 'Things will be fine now that Prokofy doesn't post' is at best silly.. People were being assholes before 'hem' came and will continue to be after 'hem's' gone.

I think that the assumption that the rules implimented were a one-shot against Prokofy is also a bit shortsighted.. and there are some people carrying on like they were.. I think once the pimp hand is laid down a few times things may settle down somewhat.


(I think this 'he who shall not be named' thing is idiotic...)

I agree Dianne.

When I made an effort to reform the forum a few months ago, most of my ideas were drowned out by accusations that I was squashing free speech or simply out to get "one person". Ironically, a review of my forum posts would show the exact opposite was true.

My efforts revolved around allowing everybody to have a shot of free speech while ALSO allowing people to enjoy interesting thread topics to completion without disruption. I was careful not to name the "one person" but NOT because I wanted to evade responsibility for some kind of personal attack. It was because I felt any forum solution should be an abstract one that would inoculate us from all future attacks, not just from the "one person."

History unfolded as it did, my efforts were condemned and then abandoned, the forum fell into ruin, and finally a stopgap solution was found in banning Prokofy. Interestingly, Catherine Cotton just posted a thread suggesting that certain "soapbox" users get their own forum section. The idea of separaing the rants from the rest of the discussion is VERY similar to my original solution (dubbed the "NPR" forum).

Another solution suggested by Catherine Omega was a branching style forum. This would allow the on-topic discussion to continue down one branch, a rant about FIC to move down another branch, and humor pictures down yet another branch. The main objective to preserve free speech AND allow a discussion to continue unharassed would be accomplished!

I am all for forum reform but I certainly wont be the one to lead it. I learned my lesson . But if you have good ideas on the subject I would gladly back you up.

C'mon, the answer's obvious. It's all about drama.

In Second Life, we don't eat, breathe, or need shelter or physical protection. The necessities of life and survival have been eliminated, and so have the basic reasons for human conflict.

Since human beings are instinctually set up over millions of years to pursue survival, and wage conflict in doing so, human beings in SL have invented a virtual necessity of life and survival in SL, and a virtual reason for conflict.

Drama.

The attraction to it is like to food, protection, shelter, and sex. But it's more efficient than the natural necessities, because virtual drama can be manufactured over, well, virtually anything.

Really?

/invalid_link.html

That thread was started a couple of days ago by He Who Must Not Be Named (guess what I'm reading!) I don't care either way, but it does seem a bit odd.

He's allowed to post in classifieds.

I think that #2 might be helpful, but I think keeping #1 is needed. Since SL 'play' extends to the forums, I feel it is a good idea to include forum banning in the punishment. I think that it might appear a little harsh viewing it from the forum side, where one would get banned IW for some infraction on the forums. I think this adds another incentive to keep people from getting out of line on the forums, as there is a lot more to lose by not doing so.

I say keep it.

What is see is that certain members "often reffered to as being "FIC" who were always DEFENDING themselves against "that person" have not been able to stop their behaviour now that "that person" is gone. Because they are now having to defend themselves against a few others who persist in continuing to fight "that person's" agenda.

It really is sad. I look forward to a day when we can get back to talking about what we like and want and even disagree with in SL without having people start threads that are clearly accusatory rather than simply discussions or questions.

Ah so a forum ban, isn't a forum ban then I take it? I'm confused now. Mind you, the whole thing was confusing in the first place.

Yes. And he can still read all the other forum sections, he just can't post in them.

I guess I still don't understand what the problem is. I've been involved with dozens of other boards around the net (still am), and have been for years. And in every case, those forums where the rules are simple but consistently reinforced, flame wars may happen and personalities may clash but I don't see anywhere near the venom that I do here.

I've seen lots of folks banned. I've seen boards where banned people are allowed back in after a decent interval but are required to wear a "reformed flamer" tag for specific time period. And I've seen a number of games where forum behavior could also cost you your subscription/play account -- SL isn't unusual in that respect.

I've also seen active boards where there simply weren't enough admins to stay on top of it all. Those were the worst. It wasn't a plot. It wasn't a matter of poor enforcement or bad policies -- it was simply a matter of not having enough staff to deal with the volume of board traffic.

And I think that's the problem here. If you have enough admins around to stay ahead of the flames, the average user never sees things erupt into full scale warfare. And those are the best user experiences for most of us.

I agree that any name calling should be against the rules in all cases. This is a forum of adults.

As soon as one decides to point at another for any negative reason the forum is degraded, and that thread is derailed. Even if the accusation is true no good is served by airing it on the forums.

Also, using the general forum for posting off-topic threads may seem fun, but it ends up pushing the on-topic threads off the first page.

I don't blame LL for lacking staff to monitor the forums more, prices would have to be increased to afford more staff. I just think we as a group can do better policing ourselves. If we see a thread that is causing strife, don't respond, let it die. Reporting such posted/threads also brings the problem to LL's attention.

Just my opinion, which is worth every penny you paid

Bless, you make them sound like the down-trodden minority bravely fighting the agressor! There was a lot of nast and vitriol from both sides (I'm having trouble with the use of the word "defending", to be honest), from what I saw. That only one person was singled out for a ban was suprising to me. But then, what do I know *shrug*

I guess what we're seeing now is that post cold-war thing. There isn't that single focal point, so it's back to a free for all, with lots of wanna-be tyrants.

The forum had various issues before Prok showed up, and it has them now that Prok is gone. As far as changing the forums, it's up to the mods. Locking threads isn't going to change anything. There is an infinite supply of threads. If there's going to be a change, people have to know it's not worth the price to derail things in the first place.

But it's not like there's even a concensus around here that things should change or how. It's really up to Linden Lab to decide what the forum will be like. It's theirs. And one reasonable decision for them would be that they simply don't want to spend resources babysitting this forum since they already have a large virtual world to babysit.

Well at the end of the day I agree with this statement but the Lindens are receptive to our wants, needs, and suggestions. It's a worthy topic to discuss these things, all the while knowing that it is ultimately the Linden's call.

I agree with this. In thought it would work perfectly. In action, hehe, going to take a lot of self-control. I know I could be better about this myself. I do have a hard time holding my tongue when I see people being attacked or misrepresented. I'm trying to at least be careful that when I state my disagreements I do so rationally and without resulting in name calling or swearing. I have noticed some people though that seem to think if you disagree with them (even in a mature way) that you are attacking them. Disagreeing with a person is *not* the same as attacking them.

As for the state of the SL forums as a whole, from my perspective, these forums have always been 10 times more tame than other online forums I have been in. Espeically ones that centered around a "game". There has *always* been disagreements, ranting, and displeasure voiced on these forums since about day one. I'd say there was a time not so long ago when they were at their worst, but they have gotten back to about their average lately.

As these forums have never really changed, I doubt they will. At least not without making them strictly a Linden announcement read only forum. The only other way I could see it working is possibly Aimee's or Catherine Omega's ideas.

That would be an improvement, but I think the simple solution is just to excise the sentence altogether. Look at the TOS, and you'll see what I mean. It just isn't necessary, and invites abuse.

P.S. Moopf, he is allowed to post in classifieds, but I thought the original poster was referring to the other thing.

P.S. I agree with Cindy Claveau's assessment that there just aren't enough people modding the forums.
I disagree with other's assessment that the nature of the forums will never change, or can't be fixed.
I agree with that the Lindens do listen.
I don't think that these forums are "par for the course" for forums of any kind, or for game forums, and I think that's bad for SL.

When a student, I once worked during vacation on a farm with a huge breeding egg production barn, in which the poor damn things lived their lives without ever coming out, though free to walk about inside. About 30 hens per cockerel if I remember correctly.

I was appalled to find just one poor hen, hiding under the food trough, only half alive, one eye, raw flesh hanging out - in a frightful state. Every passing bird pecked it as it went by. I saw no other bird in an even remotely similar state.

I appealed to the farmer to intervene. He agreed to do so, as part of my education, and gently wrang its neck.

It was only three days before another bird was reduced to the same condition.

In some of my personal relationships I foolishly attempted to take on the role of "healer" to put right all my partner's pain, and make everything right I possibly could, by giving absolute love, trust, and support.

It took me about 5 years to finally perceive, and accept, that my partners distress was nothing to do with her present environment or circumstances, and there was absolutely nothing I could do. His/her childhood had habituated her/him to a certain level of expressible victimhood, and he/she was lost without it.

Each time I succeeded in healing, or solving, or removing a stressor, she/he simply promoted a more trivial one to take its place.

One of my close relatives is now a mental nurse, and through him I am beginning to understand the depth of our impotence in dealing with real personality disorder. To see how widespread is this subconscious need to maintain the stress (and even distress) in one's life at what is (ludicrously) ones habituated "comfort level" which feels familiar, and so in some bizarre sense, "safe".

How is all this relevant? I am obviously not comparing the victim hen (or someone with a personality disorder) to any individual poster. But I have been horrified recently by a sort of insane outburst of insults and namecalling in the forums. As though something temporarily pent up had to break through.

Is it possible that somehow our collective life through the forum has a sort of subconscious "comfort-level" for this behaviour, and that "he-who-was-expelled" was in some strange sense crystallising this need, and concentrating and expressing it on our behalf?

I sometimes come up with this sort of silly over-complex idea. In this case I think it probably is just that. He was actually just a complete and utter b*stard.

And now some others are promoting themselves to take up the slack.
Oh whoops....there's that parallel again.

I also have put foreard the suggestion of a "rant" forum, but I disagreed with Catherines idea on that particular thread.

I took it as more of a suggestion that certain people who post about "inane topics" be forced to do it off by themselves on their own forum or forum thread.

I dont think that is really fair or workable and I really *enjoy* most of that inanity.
(except for the pudding that just went way to far)

Most of the reason for this thread is that I find my opinion changing on the topic and I actually, genuinely want to know what others are thinking about it. I was not in favour of the "new rules" for instance, but now I would not necessarily get rid of them.

I don't remember any new rules other than the linking of forum account to game account, as far as disciplinary measures go. Does anyone have a link?

Also, a person being banned from the SL forums is not new. Prokofy was not the first nor will he be the last to be banned from the general forums.

I think it's also important to not place people under the same umbrella because a few have claimed the forums are now a better place. I certainly don't think they are - as some folks seem hell bent on placing the responsibilty for disciplinary measure taken by LL with regard to one player upon the shoulders of other players.

P.S. - I am going to bump my "Bring back the rants section?" poll. If enough people reply with "yes" votes, I will post it to the hotline.