Are YOU a business?

OK OK I got it, I'm the big bad beast. Boo!

well said

Honestly folks, do you really care what I do as long as I stay inside the TOS? Why the obsession with me all of a sudden?

We all find things to amuse ourselves, and this happens to be a very profitable way for me to amuse myself. It's not like I'm really attacking anyone, and I try to keep all my posts free of ad hominem. Certainly can't say that about everyone elses.

I think you all need to take Willow's approach and have more of a sense of humour about it all.

I'm not rubbing it in. I'm sorry you misinterpreted me and I will try to be more clear when I speak to you in future. But I would advise you to abandon sweeping labels like "lynch mob" in favor of confronting those who are specifically guilty of what you accuse them of. Here is why...

Take the anti-prokofy lynch mob you make frequent references to. What do we know about this mob? Well, we know it is responsible for the shunning. And we know it accused you being an alt. But we also know that Aimee Weber, a vocal opponent of Prokofy, is a part of this lynch mob. Does all of this work for you?

The truth is, I never accused you of being an alt. I also never participated in the shunning. Even prok's attempt to associate me with the shunning has been downgraded from "Participating" to "not participating but planning it from IRC" to the now vague "emboldening the FIC to shun with her subtle forum posts". But when you throw phrases like Lynch Mob around your accusations have a certain amount of splash damage. Rather than lumping people together with sweeping statements, focus on the individuals who accused you of being an alt, the individuals that did the shunning, etc.

You say your thinking is both sufficient and correct. I feel the same way about mine.

Honestly I don't have a problem with multiple personality alts. It's a virtual world, where possibilities are near endless. Role playing is certainly a fun thing to do. Role playing multiple business' could be fun to (I imagine). You can be bleeding heart socialist, and right wing capitalist all in the same world.

What I do have a problem with, is using those alt's to game the forums and put down a competitor in hopes of profit. I know people do it... I don't think it's widespread... but if I uncover them, I wouldn't take them seriously anymore. So the obsession here is really that we've uncovered one of them, and we'd rather the problem go away. Yes it's a problem. It breaks the foundations of trust we have in one another in this virtual world. TOS or no TOS, one could imagine being banned for behavior detrimental to Second Life and it's community.

<sigh>

I see, so because I argue with myself in these forums so that I can make good with the elite fic, that means I am " gaming the forums and put down a competitor in hopes of profit."

Which logic system did you use to reach that conclusion?

This "FIC" thing really is getting worn out. Why is it ok for certain people to constantly attack a group of people with lies? At the same time if you mention an individuals name it is against the TOS.

OMG FIC!!!

Dude, if anyone should thank you here, its Aimee.

Up until the moment you suggested this was an attempt to advertise *PREEN*, I didnt even think about the connection.

Now thanks to you, I think of *PREEN* whenever I think of Aimee's contest. You have successfuly turned what began as an attempt to help innovators in SecondLife into an advertising campaign by complaining that it is an advertising campaign - and you have done it without her trying to do it. You've done a huge favor for Aimee's business, and for that, I guess one can only thank you.

[sigh]

I'd point out where in your posts you alluded to these things, but in general I never read past page 3 on long threads, and I'm not about to go fishing through this thread to appease someone's alt.

I made an exception to read this long thread up to this point, to get some insight on the shady working of SL's underground.

No one is obsessed with you Blaze. You opened a can of worms *and* a discussion when you admitted to using multiple alts for a variety of purposes both in world and in the forums. Once you put that out there in public, it is not your right to make anyone stop talking about it.

I also do find the practice you are doing as a bit deciteful. And yes, knowing this information will make me take you *blaze* a lot less seriously on the forums. Eventually it may get to the point where I simply ignore what you say without even reading it. And that would be because I will never know if you have an ALTernate agenda behind what you are saying.

I would not dream of gaming the forums with alts. Just because a person CAN do something doesn't mean they should, or that it is right. I prefer to stand behind my own words and let people judge the real me. If they like me, great! If not, that's fine too. Nothing says we all have to like each other.

Since I do not seperate the forums from in-world, personalities on the forums *do* affect how I feel about a person in both places. You could just as easily have gained sales from me or others, as you could have had your businesses boycotted. But how would we know where to go either way?

No. I think I lost a lot of respect for you based on the posts in these threads. And the simple reason for that is that I no longer feel I could trust anything you say. I'm sure that doesn't mean much to you, but these are just my thoughts on this issue.

Blaze, this might be a good time for you to reveal all your alts. It would be a public service and make it easier for everyone to avoid doing business or associating with you in any way. Thanks in advance.

Wow. I couldn't live with myself if I ever woke up, looked in the mirror, and thought my actions were even remotely similar in principle and morals to any huge corporation. Lying and deceit and greed and corruption SHOULD be considered bad things, not attributes of role models. Damn..I blame the parents. Doesn't anyone get taught about honor and integrity and being true to one's self and others anymore?

Yes

The funny thing , is maybe he doesnt even have any of these "money making Brand" alts.

Maybe he just likes annoying people.

How could you beleive him either way?

If what he says is true he even disagrees with himself.

"Everything I know I learned from watching T.V"... becoming more true maybe?

You make a good point Colette. From now on I'll consider everything he says to be suspect and have an underhanded ulterior motive

"Gee, guys, all I did was claim to be lying to, manipulating, and pretending to be friends with people, and now you want to talk about it? Whatsamatta, you obsessed or something? I mean, even if I really am a top supermodel, really-really! All I did was suggest maybe someone else is manipulating us with alts and stacking a phoney contest . . . or well, my ALT said that, and it's my ALT that's manipulating you with alts and stacking the forums. I'm an ALT, really, and a top supermodel, I swear! Get over your obsession! You people have no sense of humor about hypocricy and manipulative backstabbing. But I'm not doing that, it's my ALT, and I'm only doing it because I'm willing to trade my integrity to get all FIC'ed up. My other ALT's an astronaut, btw, and lives on Mars."

There are so many who participated in the shunning, the alt accusing, etc., that I would have to spend a week of research figuring out who all said what. Aside from a few cases that happen to stick in memory.

Most of the time, it isn't necessary to remember who all said what. I don't even LIKE remembering who all said what, as I prefer to think in terms of ideas, rather than in terms of people. Plus, I don't like to develop grudges against people, which happens if I remember a specific phrase said by a specific person. Such as, "don't feed the troll." Because that person may change in the future, or may have had a bad day, or may be wholely different when not discussing ideas on a message board, etc.

In addition to the fact that I was new when I was busy being called an alt and all that, and didn't know any of you from Adam anyway. And a lynch mob IS a lynch mob; one would be remiss not to point that out, and instead just focus on individuals. I mean give me a break. Anytime you get an organized shunning going on, you got lynch mob behavior.

You, though, do stick in my memory, Aimee. And I do not have you associated with calling me an alt, or with the shunning. I did notice when you made a concerted attempt not to respond to anything to you that might get you going. I noticed restraint on your part there. I made it a point once, in writing on SLHa message board, to say, "Aimee didn't do any of [what I was talking about].

So I do keep things pretty straight, and one way I do that is by keeping things pretty general. Besides, a person shouldn't go about naming names on the boards, imo. In any case, don't get me mixed up with things Prok said. The only thing you did that I objected to was start a thread full of all kinds of new message board rules, all of which seemed designed to rid the boards of certain people.

Now, as for the topic at hand - this award, and your objection to having the conversation moved to contests in classifieds - it seems to me totally apparent that it is a contest and under contests is where it belongs.

Moreover, this business of people griping about where their post got moved to, then encouraging each other to go ahead and post it here again - well, I don't respect that. My post about the Linden bridge got moved to OFF-TOPIC, for god's sake. I don't see how a pointed criticism of a Linden build to possibly be considered off topic, but I'm not back in General complaining about it. That's almost like posting about it AGAIN in General, essentially thumbing one's nose at the moderators. And those suggesting you re-post it here as you did originally are basically inciting rebellion against moderator decisions.

I think everyone should do as I did, and others have done, which is to accept it like a woman and stop complaining about it already. Then again, this whole thread is probably more because you're mad at Blaze for comparing this award to a contest a business would run. Petulance, in any case.

As for the contest, and what it's listed under, I haven't piped in with my views on that, since discretion is often the better part of valor. Blaze's confession drew me out of lurking mode, from basic shock and horror.

As far as your original charge against me goes, I am still engaged in introspection about it, to figure out which areas I may have been blind in. I have always been aware, though, that there are individuals involved in everything, as is evidenced by my pretty good recall of what you have done, and, more importantly, have not done. Another thing you have not done is be unnecessarily unkind to me. That's a thing I don't forget.

coco

"TOS or no TOS, one could imagine being banned for behavior detrimental to Second Life and it's community."

Sachmo, dangerous thinking there. The reason rules for things are never so vague as, "judged detrimental to the community" is a case can be made for all SORTS of behavior, using that criteria - taken to its extreme, to the point where most of us would no longer be posting.

More dangerous, though, is such criteria would actually in practice work out to "X percentage of posters have decided that this poster is bad for the community." Again - a way to oust someone unpopular. Anyway, I could very easily make a good case that Blaze is, overall, GOOD for the community. (Even though I think his participating in lynch mobs against himself is not.)

The rules have to be more specific than that, and if he hasn't repeatedly and with impunity broken specific rules, then nothing should happen to him.

And this business of banning is worse and more serious now that anyone banned from the forums is banned from the entire game. I don't care if they even break rules with impunity - such as reposting the name-naming that they just received a warning for. No board behavior warrants being ousted from the game itself.

As long as the new punitive rule is in place, we are all in danger of losing our game just for the message boards.

Any vague interpretation of the rules - such as, "Well, he doesn't break any rules, but overall, he's bad for the forums and the game" - sets a horrible precedent, as any unpopular poster would then be ousted. (And from the game itself, too!)

That would leave some very bland boards behind, once all the different thinkers are purged.

coco

I think blake's revelation of his numerous alts kind of scared me.

Now I am paranoid. For no reason.

Point taken. Open mouth, insert foot I guess it would be the responsibility of LL to determine if some actions were detrimental, and to change the rules accordingly.

In full disclosure I have an ALT: His name is Keynes Mechanique, and he exists becomes sometimes I need two people to test scripts.... I also like to put him at the peak of very high mountains, and push him off to watch him fall He's a nice guy and never files abuse reports against me.

I know! He's made me wonder if I'm actually one of his alts.

I sincerely appreciate (no sarcasm or "rubbing in" intended here) that you are seriously considering all of this.

I have been biting my tongue about this for some time but since you bring it up I think maybe it's a good time to reflect on my efforts to reform the forums a few months ago. More importantly, go back and review my actual posts about reforming the forums (the primary source is far more valuable than what I or Prok may say about it after).

What you will find is that *MY* ideas for improvement did not involve "getting prok" in any way. Rather you will find that my efforts involved ADDING a "strict enforcement" area to the forums where people could post under stricter rules while leaving the rest of the forums untouched. Let me say again, my ideas were carefully conceived with the goal of allowing Prok to say anything he wanted in the forums, but ALSO letting other people have a place where they could enjoy a different level of discussion. I called it the "NPR of the forums".

But how did history unfold? People voiced passionate opposition my efforts to change the forums in any way... So I dropped the whole subject and never mentioned it again. Fast forward a few months, and we find the forums in such a miserable state of decay that the Lindens felt they had to act. They turned the ENTIRE forum into a "strict enforcement" zone.

See the difference between my proposal and the actual outcome? Make no mistake, I am saying quite clearly that had my efforts to create a safe zone in the forums succeeded, then your friend may still be here.

Agreed.

Send me a link of my post where I griped. I would like to draw attention to post #1 of this thread where I said: "I am fine either way on this issue, I just thought it was an interesting question. Duscuss!"

/120/85/51610/1.html#post545548

And despite NUMEROUS suggestions to repost my award announcement in the General forum, I did not do it. I agreed with Jeska's judgement. This thread was based on a very interesting assertion by Blaze that *I AM* a business rather than I *OWN* a business.



fin

The key term there is 'taken to its extreme'. Let's not take it to the extreme, let's look at it from how it would appear 'most likely'. It is 'most likely' the forum admins would not have to invoke a general interpretation to oust someone. It is 'most likely' the defined rules already in the TOS would cover the 'most likely' scenarios. Only under extreme circumstances would an extreme course of action need to be taken.



The big problem with trying to write a specific set of rules is that there is inevitably a set of conditions which cannot be anticipated or defined within them. Equally inevitable is that someone who is determined to cause trouble will find a way to exploit that to their advantage. Nothing is black and white; a certain minimum gray area has to be allowed so that the forum admins can handle these extraordinary circumstances.




To many people the forums are a mere extension of the SL world itself. Who a person is on the forums is part and parcel of themselves in-world. Plus, rules mean little without consequences. By tying one's in-world experience to their on-forums experience, it gives them extra incentive to play nice.



'Different' is not necessarily the same as 'controversial'. There will be plenty of 'different' thinkers on these forums. I'd be willing to bet there's even a few that haven't yet posted, because they know they'd be drowned out by the 'controversial' posters. Maybe now they'll get a chance to share their unique viewpoints.


- Newfie