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Julian Fate
80's Pop Star
Join date: 19 Oct 2003
Posts: 1,020
09-24-2005 18:52
Whew, I'm glad I only compared people to shit-flinging monkeys instead of agreeing with someone's comparison. It's OK to make that comparison but don't say "haha, good one" or you will get yelled at.

Translation: it's pretty obvious this weekend's weekly flamefest is between a half dozen people who hate each other and not over any real issues. Just think of how ashamed your descendants will be.

Before someone trots out the old "you don't have to read it" argument, yeah, and I don't have to step in dog piles on the sidewalk but it's a pain to step around, or to live in a neighborhood with steaming piles all over the place when the barking mutts could be chained in the backyard.

"Jeska! Julian said I should be kept in chains!"
Cocoanut Koala
Coco's Cottages
Join date: 7 Feb 2005
Posts: 7,903
09-24-2005 18:57
From: Nolan Nash
Yeah, so if I call myself a name, you will give me leeway to call others the same? Cool.

Gonna have to file that for future reference.

Also, you didn't make it apparent you were including yourself in that. After all, you and admissions of any wrongdoing on your part seem to be light years apart.

What? I laughed at his joke! Which was about all of us. You didn't?

coco
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DogSpot Boxer
vortex thruster
Join date: 23 Aug 2005
Posts: 671
09-24-2005 19:00
From: Julian Fate

Translation: it's pretty obvious this weekend's weekly flamefest is between a half dozen people who hate each other and not over any real issues. Just think of how ashamed your descendants will be.


If anybody here really hates someone based on stuff that gets posted to a message board, they need serious RL help*. At the end of the day, it's just a f*cking forum.
Cristiano Midnight
Evil Snapshot Baron
Join date: 17 May 2003
Posts: 8,616
09-24-2005 19:07
From: Julian Fate
Whew, I'm glad I only compared people to shit-flinging monkeys instead of agreeing with someone's comparison. It's OK to make that comparison but don't say "haha, good one" or you will get yelled at.

Translation: it's pretty obvious this weekend's weekly flamefest is between a half dozen people who hate each other and not over any real issues. Just think of how ashamed your descendants will be.

Before someone trots out the old "you don't have to read it" argument, yeah, and I don't have to step in dog piles on the sidewalk but it's a pain to step around, or to live in a neighborhood with steaming piles all over the place when the barking mutts could be chained in the backyard.

"Jeska! Julian said I should be kept in chains!"


Actually, Julian, what you are missing is that it is not about what you said at all, which is why Nolan didn't have a problem with it. He is not running around taking people to task for what they say in the forums. He said something to Cocoanut because she constantly is. In this case however, Cocoanut was laughing at herself too, so it seems to just be a misunderstanding.
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Julian Fate
80's Pop Star
Join date: 19 Oct 2003
Posts: 1,020
09-24-2005 19:26
So this week the uproar is Person X constantly taking Person Y to task for constantly taking people to task, except there are several Persons X and several Persons Y? Ever get the feeling the PM button needs to be about 1280x1280 at the top of every thread? :)
Nolan Nash
Frischer Frosch
Join date: 15 May 2003
Posts: 7,141
09-24-2005 19:31
From: Cocoanut Koala
What? I laughed at his joke! Which was about all of us. You didn't?

coco

My, my. I can just imagine had someone else posted that. Someone from "our side", as you like to put it.

You'd be whining up a storm.
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Nolan Nash
Frischer Frosch
Join date: 15 May 2003
Posts: 7,141
09-24-2005 19:32
From: Julian Fate
Whew, I'm glad I only compared people to shit-flinging monkeys instead of agreeing with someone's comparison. It's OK to make that comparison but don't say "haha, good one" or you will get yelled at.

Translation: it's pretty obvious this weekend's weekly flamefest is between a half dozen people who hate each other and not over any real issues. Just think of how ashamed your descendants will be.

Before someone trots out the old "you don't have to read it" argument, yeah, and I don't have to step in dog piles on the sidewalk but it's a pain to step around, or to live in a neighborhood with steaming piles all over the place when the barking mutts could be chained in the backyard.

"Jeska! Julian said I should be kept in chains!"

Please see Cris's post. He explains it just fine.
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DogSpot Boxer
vortex thruster
Join date: 23 Aug 2005
Posts: 671
09-24-2005 19:35
From: Nolan Nash
My, my. I can just imagine had someone else posted that. Someone from "our side", as you like to put it.

You'd be whining up a storm.


Hmm.

Sounds to me like you're whining about someone elses potential whining.

The irony is almost overwhelming.
Chip Midnight
ate my baby!
Join date: 1 May 2003
Posts: 10,231
09-24-2005 20:56
From: Selador Cellardoor
No, I didn't think you were. :) What I meant was that it was out of character in the sense that you are normally one of the more empathetic posters here. And certainly some of the things I have seen have made me feel sick - I would have expected you to be conscious of some of the worst excesses, and the damage they have done to people.


Well here's the funny thing about empathy... it's not just the meek that I have it for. This all reminds me of something that happened to me when I was a kid. I was taking a city bus somewhere and there was this kinda odd kid sitting across from me. He was rubbing a quarter between his fingers very intently. I asked him what he was doing and he explained that he was going to do it until he rubbed a hole through the center. I wished him luck and then laughed my ass off at him as soon as I got off the bus. I just pictured him worn down to nothing but a tiny nub of flesh laying in the dirt still trying to rub against the as yet unaffected quarter. Good luck was the polite thing to say, but in retrospect maybe I could have saved him a pound of flesh by giving a more honest appraisal of his chances. I'm not trying to excuse bad behavior. I'm trying to encourage realism.
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Nolan Nash
Frischer Frosch
Join date: 15 May 2003
Posts: 7,141
09-24-2005 20:59
From: DogSpot Boxer
Hmm.

Sounds to me like you're whining about someone elses potential whining.

The irony is almost overwhelming.

Bye "DogSpot".
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DogSpot Boxer
vortex thruster
Join date: 23 Aug 2005
Posts: 671
09-24-2005 21:03
From: Nolan Nash
Bye "DogSpot".


Bye?

Are you leaving?
Ardith Mifflin
Mecha Fiend
Join date: 5 Jun 2004
Posts: 1,416
09-24-2005 21:13
From: Chip Midnight
Well here's the funny thing about empathy... it's not just the meek that I have it for. This all reminds me of something that happened to me when I was a kid. I was taking a city bus somewhere and there was this kinda odd kid sitting across from me. He was rubbing a quarter between his fingers very intently. I asked him what he was doing and he explained that he was going to do it until he rubbed a hole through the center. I wished him luck and then laughed my ass off at him as soon as I got off the bus. I just pictured him worn down to nothing but a tiny nub of flesh laying in the dirt still trying to rub against the as yet unaffected quarter. Good luck was the polite thing to say, but in retrospect maybe I could have saved him a pound of flesh by giving a more honest appraisal of his chances. I'm not trying to excuse bad behavior. I'm trying to encourage realism.


You know, the salinity of human sweat combined with friction would actually corrode the quarter at a greater than normal rate. Though the copper-nickel alloy which the quarter is minted from is particularly resistant to salt-water corrosion, it still exhibits a corrosion rate as high as 0.025 mm/year in salt fog. The standard American quarter has a thickness of 1.75 mm, which would be completely corroded in 70 years at the stated rate. Add in the mechanical wear from the constant rubbing, and you could conceivably wear a hole in a quarter during your lifetime, especially if you start as a young child.

Honestly, I find the idea oddly appealing. It's almost as if it represents life itself. Subtle, almost imperceptible actions which we consider mundane accumulate over time to produce real, substantial effects in the world. We trod through life working 9 to 5, find love, have kids, and before we know it we've worn a hole in the coin and our lives are complete.

Ayeaaah... that was too sentimental.
Cristiano Midnight
Evil Snapshot Baron
Join date: 17 May 2003
Posts: 8,616
09-24-2005 21:15
From: Ardith Mifflin
You know, the salinity of human sweat combined with friction would actually corrode the quarter at a greater than normal rate. Though the copper-nickel alloy which the quarter is minted from is particularly resistant to salt-water corrosion, it still exhibits a corrosion rate as high as 0.025 mm/year in salt fog. The standard American quarter has a thickness of 1.75 mm, which would be completely corroded in 70 years at the stated rate. Add in the mechanical wear from the constant rubbing, and you could conceivably wear a hole in a quarter during your lifetime, especially if you start as a young child.

Honestly, I find the idea oddly appealing. It's almost as if it represents life itself. Subtle, almost imperceptible actions which we consider mundane accumulate over time to produce real, substantial effects in the world. We trod through life working 9 to 5, find love, have kids, and before we know it we've worn a hole in the coin and our lives are complete.

Ayeaaah... that was too sentimental.


He posts all of that, and you only focus on burning the hole through the quarter? Why does he bother? :( :cool:
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Chip Midnight
ate my baby!
Join date: 1 May 2003
Posts: 10,231
09-24-2005 21:21
From: Ardith Mifflin
You know, the salinity of human sweat combined with friction would actually corrode the quarter at a greater than normal rate. Though the copper-nickel alloy which the quarter is minted from is particularly resistant to salt-water corrosion, it still exhibits a corrosion rate as high as 0.025 mm/year in salt fog. The standard American quarter has a thickness of 1.75 mm, which would be completely corroded in 70 years at the stated rate. Add in the mechanical wear from the constant rubbing, and you could conceivably wear a hole in a quarter during your lifetime, especially if you start as a young child.


Don Quixote could have spared a lot of windmills if only he'd had a quarter :)
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April Firefly
Idiosyncratic Poster
Join date: 3 Aug 2004
Posts: 1,253
09-24-2005 21:31
I have a theory. It's not fact. It's just an idea that's been running through my head, so please don't hold me to task for it.

I think we are all a bunch of highly intelligent and expressive people who feel very strongly about issues we are affected by and/or believe in.

Because of this, some of the interactions between us can be somewhat abrasive and the message board as a communication medium lacks certain nuances.

In the end, I find, even with some of the negativity, I still find the Forums useful. I still find them somewhat better than they had been in the past.

I implore anyone who finds themselves caught up in the message boards to such an extent that they find it abusive, to step away. Over the past few weeks, I've taken breaks from posting. I still read, and respond to some cries for help, but leave some of the debating to others. I have found this to be a helpful tactic.

As for more moderators, I would hate for LL to take any resources from needed areas for this. I think we could all police ourselves.

For instance, I made a post earlier this week that I thought would be funny, but someone took offense to it. After trying to explain my rationale for the post, the complaintant was still upset, so I deleted the post. Sometimes people just get upset. I don't have to agree with why they were upset, either way it wouldn't change the fact that they were upset.

Sorry if I'm not making sense.
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Siggy Romulus
DILLIGAF
Join date: 22 Sep 2003
Posts: 5,711
09-24-2005 22:00
From: April Firefly

For instance, I made a post earlier this week that I thought would be funny, but someone took offense to it. After trying to explain my rationale for the post, the complaintant was still upset, so I deleted the post. Sometimes people just get upset. I don't have to agree with why they were upset, either way it wouldn't change the fact that they were upset.

Sorry if I'm not making sense.


I get that fairly often.. in situations like that I tend to just say 'fuck em'

If they don't like what I say they can ignore me, and if it crosses the line the moderator will be sure to give me a spanky on the hand..

I'm not gonna walk on eggshells because I might hurt someones widdle feelings...

Siggy.
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From: Jesse Linden
I, for one, am highly un-helped by this thread
Katja Marlowe
Registered User
Join date: 15 Apr 2005
Posts: 421
09-24-2005 22:09
From: Cocoanut Koala
Thought of something else, Cristiano. You said, "considering that the forums provide no income." Not directly, they don't. But done right, they can be a wonderful service for the players and foster a sense of community. The PR of that is worth it, and provides income indirectly.

I would say the forums as they are, though, actually cost LL money, and more than just the cost of moderating them.

coco


So did the TSO forums provide a place of community? From what you say about them often enough, they didn't. Yet, because many people agreed with you, you seem on the side of them having continued to exist? or am I misunderstanding the difference between tso forums and sl forums? *shrugs* I've met a few neat people through forums, from what you have said, you have too. I've seen a lot of newbies get help in these forums, and only a very few get made fun of. Why not focus on the positive every once in awhile?
Cocoanut Koala
Coco's Cottages
Join date: 7 Feb 2005
Posts: 7,903
09-24-2005 23:38
From: Julian Fate
So this week the uproar is Person X constantly taking Person Y to task for constantly taking people to task, except there are several Persons X and several Persons Y? Ever get the feeling the PM button needs to be about 1280x1280 at the top of every thread? :)

hehe I can't help but love Julian's take on all this.

coco
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Siggy Romulus
DILLIGAF
Join date: 22 Sep 2003
Posts: 5,711
09-24-2005 23:57
From: Cocoanut Koala
(
These moderators should be impartial people and NOT previous or current players under another name.

coco


These people should be Lindens, anyone else can kiss my lily white ass.
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The Second Life forums are living proof as to why it's illegal for people to have sex with farm animals.

From: Jesse Linden
I, for one, am highly un-helped by this thread
Cocoanut Koala
Coco's Cottages
Join date: 7 Feb 2005
Posts: 7,903
09-25-2005 00:26
From: Katja Marlowe
So did the TSO forums provide a place of community? From what you say about them often enough, they didn't. Yet, because many people agreed with you, you seem on the side of them having continued to exist? or am I misunderstanding the difference between tso forums and sl forums? *shrugs* I've met a few neat people through forums, from what you have said, you have too. I've seen a lot of newbies get help in these forums, and only a very few get made fun of. Why not focus on the positive every once in awhile?

Interesting you bring that up. Just tonight I was talking with a TSO friend who recently got a warning for making a very mild joke with someone on the forums. I mean, REALLY mild. I'm not going to repeat it, because it was so mild I can't even remember it - I had to ask her twice what it was, lol, and I've forgotten again. Like, an emoticon sort of comment almost, and the person she was saying it to totally understood, cause it was a TOTALLY mild JOKE.

The sort of thing that most people would just have trouble seeing what the problem was with it.

So I was saying to her, surely somewhere in the world there is a happy medium between that and . . . let's see, how did I put it, the ability to basically say to someone here, "You're a complete s***."

Yes, they did build community. (I put this all in the past tense only cause I don't spend time there anymore.) They had their fair share of drama, too, and because the mods were players who "came out" (gave their real names, for the most part) there were always some hollering about favoritism. I am not saying there was not favoritism, cause I don't really know. It SEEMED there wasn't much of that. But that's why I think mods - if they are players - should stay IN the closet (and always thought that), and ideally, they would not be players.

In the past year or so - at least until what I heard tonight - it was probably about as good as things can get in terms of freedom, as weighed against freedom from harrassment, abuse, name-calling, etc.

But yes, they built community. All throughout, there would be people getting together because they met on the forums, which I imagine happens here also. I myself moved to IH just to be next door to Pendari, who I never met, since she left there shortly therafter. We had city-wide parties based on getting together on the boards. I go there nearly every Friday night and have a heck of a lot of fun with people who have converged - via the boards - from all the cities.

Yes, I've seen mostly positive things happening in the other SL forums, and of course, people are helpful. But "only a few get made fun of" - I just can't accept that. People should not be allowed to ridicule others, period, particularly not en masse; the end. Not negotiable.

"Yet, because many people agreed with you, you seem on the side of them having continued to exist?" -- don't know what you mean by that.

During my time on the TSO forums, I chafed horribly at the lack of free speech in the beginning. There, any criticism made was considered basically an attack on EA. And you would be banned from the game if you got too many warnings.

Eventually they eased up, but I STILL got a whole lot of grief from a number of people because I wasn't nice enough. We were expected to beg sweetly for some information from the company, or an answer to anything from the company rep, and then not complain if it never came.

That's why I say the Lindens are terrific at listening and responding. We at TSO never had it nearly as good.

It's not the good parts of the forums that I object to. I doubt there are many forums you can find with people who are so intelligent or downright funny. It's FAR more intellectually engaging to take part in the forums here than in the TSO forums.

But all that's worthless, really, if people are allowed to get away with the personal attacks they are. Funny is good. Funny mean and vicious isn't. After a while, I will just have to do as April suggests, and as many others have done before me, and just disassociate myself entirely from the sorts of things that go on here.

There is a whole huge post right now, calling a number of us fools, socially inept, slavering and dribbling and I don't know what all, it's endless. It's just sitting there, and y'all know it's about me and various others. Worse, there's a whole cheering team, enthusiastically agreeing that we are social inept, totally pathetic, fools, I don't know what all.

I wish that individual would put her considerable talents to something besides that. But it's by far not just that thread, but others, and other posts, that just keep going on and keep going on. It's heavily negative. It's a downer, and it happens over and over and over and over. In fact, it's sick. And it makes me sick whether that sort of thing is about me, or about others, newbies, oldbies, or midbies. It never happens in real life. It wouldn't happen on boards which were reasonably moderated.

If that sort of thing is what these forums are to be - that, along with making fun of people, being snide and condescending to new players and to each other, etc., saying GODAWFUL things about people and ganging up to do so - if there really ARE more people wanting to be nasty to each other than people wanting a civil environment - then there probably is no hope. And if there is no hope, then my best overall plan is to leave it.

I'm not ready to do that yet. And I am fully aware that there are people fairly frothing at the mouth for me to leave. Some of them just really cannot stand that I don't think as they do. For months now, I've put up with character assassination of the highest degree, every single day. And why? Because I keep wanting the TOS enforced.

Even wanting the TOS enforced - as we have seen - is painted as something despicable, and indicative of deep character flaws. When you get called names for pointing to the TOS, then I think something is pretty rotten, and it also indicates that the mods are doing a very, very poor job.

I'm not really sure why they want me gone. Because after me, there will be another. And another. And another. DogSpot, whoever, it doesn't matter. There were people before me. Nice people will avoid it. This is not human nature, and it is not the way most people are. There will ALWAYS be victims on THESE forums. That, in fact, is the essence of what is fundamentally wrong with them.

If all we are going to have here are people calling each other fucktards and fools, martyrs and god knows what else, deriding and ridiculing one another, challenging even the most minor thing or joke, posting horrid pictures and everything else, then really. Who wants it? Who in their right mind?

The time is growing short for me. And not because I lack strength, or conviction, or anything like that. But more because of what April was saying. And - it isn't good for the soul to hang around to long in such an acrid environment.

coco
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Katja Marlowe
Registered User
Join date: 15 Apr 2005
Posts: 421
09-25-2005 00:39
I can understand where you're coming from Coco, on the disassociating from it.

However, tonight? that's the first POSITIVE thing, and I don't read every thread, so I could have missed it...that I've heard you say about how the TSO forums were ran. You've never once talked about the community on there.

And honestly? Even with all the insults and stuff flying around here? I prefer these forums to TSO. I left TSO's forums after doing my initial lurk and stuff. Because there was a total ignoring that I saw at that time if you didn't have a "famous" name. My comment was made because you've referred to being "FIC" on TSO's boards Coco, in the past...so it's like because you were that, you couldn't see the fact that some of the same stuff happened, just not as blatant as here.
Cocoanut Koala
Coco's Cottages
Join date: 7 Feb 2005
Posts: 7,903
09-25-2005 00:48
From: Katja Marlowe
I can understand where you're coming from Coco, on the disassociating from it.

However, tonight? that's the first POSITIVE thing, and I don't read every thread, so I could have missed it...that I've heard you say about how the TSO forums were ran. You've never once talked about the community on there.

And honestly? Even with all the insults and stuff flying around here? I prefer these forums to TSO. I left TSO's forums after doing my initial lurk and stuff. Because there was a total ignoring that I saw at that time if you didn't have a "famous" name. My comment was made because you've referred to being "FIC" on TSO's boards Coco, in the past...so it's like because you were that, you couldn't see the fact that some of the same stuff happened, just not as blatant as here.

LOL, Katja, you're up as late as I am.

I have said those positive things before. Both about the people on the forums and about the Lindens.

I never referred to being "FIC" on TSO's boards. I have said, only half-jokingly, that I came in HERE as FIC. What I meant by that - which unfortunately I see now could be interpreted as you did - was that every individual is important. And every individual is a force to be reckoned with. That anybody is an FIC who sees themselves that way, and just try to convince them otherwise. That in my mind, I AM fic. As can be anyone. Something like that.

The same stuff absolutely did NOT happen on those forums. In fact, they haven't happened on any forums I've ever been a part of. The shunning business - that's just one, shining, shameful example of what hasn't happened on any forums I've ever been a part of. I could find you a dozen examples on any given day.

coco
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Katja Marlowe
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Join date: 15 Apr 2005
Posts: 421
09-25-2005 01:16
From: Cocoanut Koala
LOL, Katja, you're up as late as I am.

I have said those positive things before. Both about the people on the forums and about the Lindens.

I never referred to being "FIC" on TSO's boards. I have said, only half-jokingly, that I came in HERE as FIC. What I meant by that - which unfortunately I see now could be interpreted as you did - was that every individual is important. And every individual is a force to be reckoned with. That anybody is an FIC who sees themselves that way, and just try to convince them otherwise. That in my mind, I AM fic. As can be anyone. Something like that.

The same stuff absolutely did NOT happen on those forums. In fact, they haven't happened on any forums I've ever been a part of. The shunning business - that's just one, shining, shameful example of what hasn't happened on any forums I've ever been a part of. I could find you a dozen examples on any given day.

coco


But I'm saying the shunning thing? it did happen. Just not as blatant as here. *shrugs* and what I'm saying, is that you have repeatedly said that you were respected, liked etc everywhere you've been, but here.


and yeah, I slept til 5 p.m. tonight :O so probably up a bit later yet LOL
Selador Cellardoor
Registered User
Join date: 16 Nov 2003
Posts: 3,082
09-25-2005 03:55
From: Cristiano Midnight
You haven't been reading Chip's posts, then. He has been pretty consistent in his statements that people need to take personal responsibility for their own words, and also get a backbone. Forums are not an easy medium because of their nature. I have seen things that have made me feel sick too. More often than not, it has been apologists lamenting how horribly someone is treated while giving the same perosn carte blanche to be a complete asshole to everyone else. It discredits anything else they have to say in my mind - you need to stand up against it regardless of its source. You have zero credibility when you give some people conditional free passes.


Cristiano,

Yes, I know that is your view, and you also know that I don't agree that it is an accurate reflection of the situation.
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Selador Cellardoor
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Join date: 16 Nov 2003
Posts: 3,082
09-25-2005 04:10
From: April Firefly
I have a theory. It's not fact. It's just an idea that's been running through my head, so please don't hold me to task for it.

I think we are all a bunch of highly intelligent and expressive people who feel very strongly about issues we are affected by and/or believe in.

Because of this, some of the interactions between us can be somewhat abrasive and the message board as a communication medium lacks certain nuances.



I have an alternate theory, April. I believe that some people have a particular personality type. They are socially inept, feel inadequate, and tend to cowardice. When they get on a forum like this, they realise with delight that here they can be offensive as they like with impunity. They can upset people, they can bully, they can victimise, and there is no comeback. It is like paradise for them.

I remember CB radio, and it was the same then. Certain people behind a microphone would be vindictive and vicious, and when you met them face to face they were as meek as could be.

Can you imagine some of the people on here behaving like that in real life? They would be in hospital within a short time, and would ultimately find themselves receiving the Darwin Award.

I just wish they would take some time before posting, and imagine a real person sitting on the other side of their desk looking at them. Perhaps if that happened we might raise the level of civility on these forums to a minimal acceptable level.
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