To Explicit for Burning Life?
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Ilianexsi Sojourner
Chick with Horns
Join date: 11 Jul 2004
Posts: 1,707
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08-31-2005 22:11
From: Dianne Mechanique I dont agree with censorship in any way shape or form, but this is the tackiest most idiotic thing I have seen lately.
It is not art in the same sense that "nature" is art. It is not art in the michelangelo sense of nude sculpture.
Well, thank goodness, I thought I was the only one who was totally mystified as to what makes this thing brilliant art. What kind of statement is a giant penis making that we haven't already heard a thousand times already? If it was a giant replica of a classical nude statue, I'd have no problem with it... but I have to agree, this strikes me as tacky. It's controversy merely for the sake of controversy.
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Everything's impossible,'till it ain't. --Ben Hawkins, Carnivale
Help build a Utopian Playland-- www.doctorsteel.com. Music, robots, fun times!
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Enabran Templar
Capitalist Pig
Join date: 26 Aug 2004
Posts: 4,506
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08-31-2005 22:18
From: Ilianexsi Sojourner Well, thank goodness, I thought I was the only one who was totally mystified as to what makes this thing brilliant art. What kind of statement is a giant penis making that we haven't already heard a thousand times already? If it was a giant replica of a classical nude statue, I'd have no problem with it... but I have to agree, this strikes me as tacky. It's controversy merely for the sake of controversy. Well, I, for one, am glad that neither you nor Dianne get to approve what is Art and what is not. Also, as far as the statement of the penis, quoted below is the symbolic significance of this rather universal icon, provided here because your question suggests you may have missed it. Love has been used as a theme in art and storytelling thousands of times, also. Does that mean new interpretations of love are not valid? Surely Second Life is not so culturally bankrupt that we must censor everything that doesn't meet the Disney test. From: Enabran Templar Is a penis, a historic symbol of fertility and life, really that scary? That offensive? Behold the Kokopelli, a Native American god of fertility, who presides over both the success of crop growth and ability for mothers to conceive children: Note his erection. Though commercial representations of this deity remove the phallus for their own reasons, the original depiction often included an erect penis. Shall we scrub away the artifacts that contain the R-rated Kokopelli? Shall we scrub away the thousands of years of cultural memory that the penis represents?
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From: Hiro Pendragon Furthermore, as Second Life goes to the Metaverse, and this becomes an open platform, Linden Lab risks lawsuit in court and [attachment culling] will, I repeat WILL be reverse in court. Second Life Forums: Who needs Reason when you can use bold tags?
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David Valentino
Nicely Wicked
Join date: 1 Jan 2004
Posts: 2,941
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08-31-2005 22:33
From: Ilianexsi Sojourner Well, thank goodness, I thought I was the only one who was totally mystified as to what makes this thing brilliant art. What kind of statement is a giant penis making that we haven't already heard a thousand times already? If it was a giant replica of a classical nude statue, I'd have no problem with it... but I have to agree, this strikes me as tacky. It's controversy merely for the sake of controversy. So if it were a replica of exsisting "nude" art, it would be ok? But being a new creation, it's not? Guess what? If someone built a sculpture depecting graphic sex, and said they built it because they like sex, it would still be art. If someone built or painted a graphic sexual depiction and said they did it to be contraversial, it would still be art. Art is the creation of something that invokes emotion in the viewer. I prefer art to display some creative talent, and Grim does display this with her build. It may not be brilliant, but it's art, and it evoked emotion in you, even if just disgust or apathy. Art is often created to provoke a response, and sometimes to spark a controversy, and sometimes just to express something the artist feels. There are many types of art I don't care for, but I would still defend the right for it to exsist and be seen.
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David Lamoreaux
Owner - Perilous Pleasures and Extreme Erotica Gallery
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Siggy Romulus
DILLIGAF
Join date: 22 Sep 2003
Posts: 5,711
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08-31-2005 22:40
Just goes to prove the old saying I guess;
What one person thinks is art.... another thinks is a load of cock.
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The Second Life forums are living proof as to why it's illegal for people to have sex with farm animals. From: Jesse Linden I, for one, am highly un-helped by this thread
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Lianne Marten
Cheese Baron
Join date: 6 May 2004
Posts: 2,192
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08-31-2005 22:58
From: Siggy Romulus Just goes to prove the old saying I guess;
What one person thinks is art.... another thinks is a load of cock. In this case they are both right 
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Dianne Mechanique
Back from the Dead
Join date: 28 Mar 2005
Posts: 2,648
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09-01-2005 09:05
From: Euterpe Roo Dianne, you should do it. Let me tell you who would be behind (no pun intended) you in your creation: Kate Millet Audre Lorde Jacques Lacan Laura Mulvey Adrianne Rich Margaret Cho Walt Whitman Simone de Beauvoir Ansel Adams Luce Irigaray Herman Melville John Stuart Mill Holly Near Georgia O'Keefe Susan Faludi Ani DiFranco Helene Cixous bell hooks James Joyce Julie Kristeva Carol Gilliagan Rebecca Walker Virginia Woolf You would be in fine company.  OMG! I can't believe you left out Judy Chicago!  But I stand by what I said, making a penis and texturing it like granite is not art, it's more like just personal expression. Unfortunately, just "expressing yourself".... is also not art.  . There was a lot more behind the pieces made by all of the folks you mentioned than just representing a vagina or a penis. Art is about meaning and reference. ------ PS - I also have concrete plans for the giant Vagina, but I always held off from making it, because without a meaning or a purpose of some kind, well ... it's just a giant vagina, NOT ART. PPS - Day one, of year one, of every Art School or Art College I ever attended or visited... From: Art School 101 Teacher: "Okay so who can tell me what Art is?"
Student: "It's about personal expression, about expressing yourself." (General murmur of agreement from all the other students)
Teacher: "NO!" "Good art has nothing to do with expression! If thre is one thing you carry away with you in your years here, you must understand that Art is *not* about 'expressing yourself'," I think I have already overstated my case though. 
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Ilianexsi Sojourner
Chick with Horns
Join date: 11 Jul 2004
Posts: 1,707
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09-01-2005 09:13
From: Dianne Mechanique OMG! I can't believe you left out Judy Chicago!  Hey, yeah! The whole dinner party installation. Great work. Hey now, there's something that'd be interesting to replicate in SL....
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Everything's impossible,'till it ain't. --Ben Hawkins, Carnivale
Help build a Utopian Playland-- www.doctorsteel.com. Music, robots, fun times!
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Cory Edo
is on a 7 second delay
Join date: 26 Mar 2005
Posts: 1,851
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09-01-2005 09:22
From "What is art?" by Leo Tolstoy: From: Tolstoy #25. There is one indubitable indication distinguishing real art from its counterfeit, namely, the infectiousness of art. If a man, without exercising effort and without altering his standpoint on reading, hearing, or seeing another man's work, experiences a mental condition which unites him with that man and with other people who also partake of that work of art, then the object evoking that condition is a work of art. And however poetical, realistic, effectful, or interesting a work may be, it is not a work of art if it does not evoke that feeling (quite distinct from all other feelings) of joy and of spiritual union with another (the author) and with others (those who are also infected by it).
By Tolstoy's definition, my Burning Life build isn't art. At least not in my perspective. Its a bunch of nicely done textures and some neat effects. But art it aint. In fact, I think I've seen maybe 2 builds in SL that I would catagorize as "art" under Tolstoy's definition - which, if you read the entire thing, is much closer to your point of view than against. Would this mean that everybody's getting tossed from BL because the builds don't hold to a professor, art critic or author's definition of "art"? "Art" has as many definitions as there are people. Its when one person, or a specific group of people, make the final judgement on what art is or isn't - and following from that judgement, what can or cannot be viewed and appreciated (or reviled) by others - that a grave disservice is done to all. Lord knows, you're welcome to your own opinion on what constitutes "art" and what doesn't. However, everyone else has the exact same right to make up their own minds, your art professors' opinions notwithstanding (and a greater bunch of frustrated blowhards you're not likely to find outside of the DC Beltway). And Grim has as much right as everyone else to have her work judged according to whatever definition of "art" one chooses to hold.
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Memory Harker
Girl Anachronism
Join date: 17 Jun 2005
Posts: 393
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ad absurdum, whatthehell
09-01-2005 12:37
"Art? That's a man's name."
~ Andy Warhol
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Tiger Crossing
The Prim Maker
Join date: 18 Aug 2003
Posts: 1,560
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09-01-2005 13:03
For "old time's sake" (aka, 3 thread pages ago) the build should be made interactive where everyone gets to place one very tiny black bar with "CENSORED" somewhere along the lenght. VERY tiny, so it would take thousands to ever cover it.  I liked it. Showed it to my wife with a grin. She liked it too.
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~ Tiger Crossing ~ (Nonsanity)
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Cory Edo
is on a 7 second delay
Join date: 26 Mar 2005
Posts: 1,851
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09-01-2005 13:04
From: Tiger Crossing For "old time's sake" (aka, 3 thread pages ago) the build should be made interactive where everyone gets to place one very tiny black bar with "CENSORED" somewhere along the lenght. VERY tiny, so it would take thousands to ever cover it.  I liked it. Showed it to my wife with a grin. She liked it too. OK, that's just brilliant. *doffs hat in your general direction*
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Bond Harrington
Kills Threads At 500yds
Join date: 15 May 2005
Posts: 198
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09-01-2005 13:18
From: Rose Karuna You raise (so to speak) an excellent point.
. Well, either you obviously missed or possibly too young to get the joke. Anytime I hear the duality of sex and violence, and the preference of violence over sex, I have to quote that line.
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Ilianexsi Sojourner
Chick with Horns
Join date: 11 Jul 2004
Posts: 1,707
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09-01-2005 13:39
From: Enabran Templar Well, I, for one, am glad that neither you nor Dianne get to approve what is Art and what is not. Ha, if only you could see the pictures I have on the walls of my SL home, you'd know why this is funny. I have nothing against explicit art... what bothers me is tacky, trite and hackneyed art. At least be original. From: someone Also, as far as the statement of the penis, quoted below is the symbolic significance of this rather universal icon, provided here because your question suggests you may have missed it. Yeah, yeah, it's all about love and life and whatnot. If you say so. That's OK, I expected to get flamed for having an unpopular opinion, so flame away, enjoy yourselves. I'm not going to apologize for what I believe. If you all think it's brilliant, then more power to you. Hope you enjoy it. Just don't act so surprised and annoyed that there are a few people out there who think it's hideous.
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Everything's impossible,'till it ain't. --Ben Hawkins, Carnivale
Help build a Utopian Playland-- www.doctorsteel.com. Music, robots, fun times!
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Cory Edo
is on a 7 second delay
Join date: 26 Mar 2005
Posts: 1,851
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09-01-2005 13:48
From: Ilianexsi Sojourner Ha, if only you could see the pictures I have on the walls of my SL home, you'd know why this is funny. I have nothing against explicit art... what bothers me is tacky, trite and hackneyed art. At least be original.
Yeah, yeah, it's all about love and life and whatnot. If you say so. That's OK, I expected to get flamed for having an unpopular opinion, so flame away, enjoy yourselves. I'm not going to apologize for what I believe. If you all think it's brilliant, then more power to you. Hope you enjoy it. Just don't act so surprised and annoyed that there are a few people out there who think it's hideous. Ilianexsi, with all due respect, there's absolutely no problem with thinking that its horrid, poorly created garbage. But that's no more of a reason to keep it out of Burning Life than if it does or doesn't meet somebody's personal standards of what art is. This same arguement has been had about music, too - jazz, rock, rap. There are people that HATE it. They say its not "really music". Its perverse, it sucks, no one could possibly like that kind of thing. All well and good, no problem. Doesn't mean that it shouldn't be available for anyone else to make up their mind about. Again, with all due respect, I believe it would be just as hard to define "hackneyed" in a way that everyone can agree upon as it would be to define "art". I don't think Grim's build is brilliant either. I don't think my build is brilliant, nor is yours, nor is anyone else's, really. But it has every valid reason to exist and be in Burning Life as anyone else's build. Defending someone's right to create and display art, and liking said art, are not one and the same thing.
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Forseti Svarog
ESC
Join date: 2 Nov 2004
Posts: 1,730
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09-01-2005 14:05
Paul Cézanne to Emile Bernard, 1905 "The Louvre is the book in which we learn to read. We must not, however, be satisfied with retaining the beautiful formulas of our illustrious predecessors. Let us go forth to study beautiful nature, let us try to free our minds from them, let us strive to express ourselves according to our personal temperment. Time and reflection, moreover, modify little by little our vision, and at last comprehension comes to us."
John Sloan, Gist of Art, 1939 "Good art cannot be defined because such a definition would have to include the word beauty. People have written volumes to define the word beauty, and I can't believe that the books would have been so long if they had found the definition. My own definition of art does not specify good art: Art is the result of a creative impulse derived out of a consciousness of life."
Robert Henri in The Art Spirit, 1923 "Know what the old masters did. Know how they composed their pictures, but do not fall into the conventions they established. These conventions were right for them, and they are wonderful. They made their language. You make yours. All the past can help you."
Eugene Delacroix in his Journal, 28 April 1852 "The Carracci and their pupils had the monopoly of fame, and had become dictators of glory, that is to say they praised only what resembled their own work and used all the authority of their position as the leaders of the reigning fashion to plot against anything that tended to break out of the ordinary rut..."
Jean-Baptiste-Camille Corot, from his notebooks ca. 1856 "Be guided by feeling alone. We are only simple mortals, subject to error; so listen to the advice of others, but follow only what you understand and can unite in your own feeling. Be firm, be meek, but follow your own convictions. It is better to be nothing than an echo of other painters. The wise man has said: When one follows another, one is always behind."
and one of my favorites...
Paul Cézanne to Emile Bernard, 25 July 1904 "Don't be an art critic, but paint, there lies salvation."
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Selador Cellardoor
Registered User
Join date: 16 Nov 2003
Posts: 3,082
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09-02-2005 03:07
In my view, admittedly a simple one, if someone calls their creation 'art' then it is art - no doubt about it. The question then becomes whether it is good art or bad art, and that can be debated for evermore.
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Ewan Took
Mad Hairy Scotsman
Join date: 5 Dec 2004
Posts: 579
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09-02-2005 07:08
From: Selador Cellardoor In my view, admittedly a simple one, if someone calls their creation 'art' then it is art - no doubt about it. The question then becomes whether it is good art or bad art, and that can be debated for evermore. I once heard the expression 'phoney art' or 'phart' for short. If you don't like it or think it shouldn't be described as art then just call it phart.
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Phoenix Psaltery
Ninja Wizard
Join date: 25 Feb 2005
Posts: 2,599
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09-02-2005 07:30
From: pandastrong Fairplay Does this mean no more penis jokes?  Panda, you ARE a penis joke. P2
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