How much do you trust online?

Lol, I fully trust Cindy Claveau both online and in real-world ways, to be who and what she claims to be and to believe what she says she believes, and to be a reasonable, non-ax-wielding citizen I could meet irl with no risk.

I would give myself about a 98% chance of being accurate in that trust.

coco

Because of recent, personal events, I am once again struggling with just this. I have been "online" for nearly 15 years now, and I have seen a whole gamut of things that from time to time cause me to re-examine my own behavior online. How much trust I will afford an individual, how close I will let them get, etc.

Sometimes it's so damned easy to be swayed into believeing that someone is a wonderful person online, only to find out a year or two down the road that they are not at all who you thought they were. This can happen with friendships or romances.

I say this because I have expanded a few friendships and relationships from online to RL, and found this to be the case.

Possibly, this is because it's much easier to hide things about one's self in the preliminary stages of an online relationship.

Of course, there are many degrees of this. Some just hide things. Some make up things. Some only let certain parts of their personality shine through - which leaves for nasty little suprises down the road. Some do more than one of these, some do none of them.

I guess what I am saying, is that I don't know yet. Even after well over a decade in online environments, I haven't figured it out. Maybe when having an online "life" becomes more of the societal norm, I will gain more insight. Even today, in 2005, it's pretty taboo with most people I speak to in RL (to have an online life and/or relationships).

Perhaps this is part of the reason some folks feel compelled to play head games online. They may feel a bit ashamed from the get-go, because of a fairly pervasive, negative view that many people hold with regard to online life. I know that I find myself curbing my enthusiasm around certain folks who are misinformed, cynical and sometimes downright arrogant, with respect to this issue.

Thanks for the thought provoking thread Cindy.

I tend to be quite trusting, though I also talk about RL in SL a lot. When I meet people, I like to know where they live (not their address, just maybe their state or country) and approximately how old they are, and if they're working, or if they're a student, or if they like cheese and crackers and all these other things just because I'm incurably curious.

I don't sit around and interrogate people, but I do ask a lot of questions (I guess it's "getting to know" someone?).

Anyway, I usually don't meet with a "I'm sorry, I don't want to talk about where I live," and it's fine if they do say that. And I'm quite open about where I live and what I do (nothing).

I am selective about who I give my RL name to, though, for some reason. And usually it doesn't come up. The only time I give it out (it's not a HUUUUUGE secret) is when someone else volunteers the information first.

It's kind of like a strip club where dancers have their stage name and their real name: do you call this person by this name, or that? When my boyfriend logs on (the two times a year that he does) I have problems calling him by his SL name.

I suspect it is not the lack of sugar but rather lack of caffeine to reconfigure your whacky neurons in the morning Just clarifying in case others didn't get your point hehe

hehe, I thought you meant it the other way around. Clearly I need to make more espresso!

I'm the same way, Lo. I think there are two mindsets of people in SL... those who use it as a time out from their real life, and those that see it as an extension of their real life. To me, SL is like an extra room in my house. If the door wasn't just one way, many people would be welcome to wander through it into the real life rooms.

Thats ok for you.. you're not posting in your underwear!

Thanks Visual!!!

Cin,
You know first hand the deception I recently experienced since you and Mari shared part of that bizarre encounter. The odd part is that to this day that liar we met will swear he only tells the truth, the whole truth and nothing but. That creep put it in his profile too, well, he put it in one of them!

This even after being caught at his multiple deceptions and confessing! He does not know what the truth is.

Online seems to liberate both the good and the bad in us. After all, how many young men & women IRL aspire to be and "escort" or club dancer. We shun those who are IRL yet glorify that choice online. Go figure.

Cyberspace is the paradise for deception, not truth. Assume one who says yes means no once he or she makes the conquest. Even marsupials.

One of the many things we agree on Cin is that it all catches up with them eventually in a small community such as SL.

I think one should define the deception, was it committed within SL ? that is involving SL characters or was the deception crossed over from RL? It matters, here is why:

Let's imagine the question that Cindy asked was reversed, would you trust someone you meet in real world about what they tell you about their online life? Would it matter if they lied about their SL ? Although, this question sounds a bit premature now, I supect it will become highly relevant within 5-10 years when our virtual lives approach more and more realism.

So let's imagine a scenario, you meet someone in real world that you fall in love and care much. He or she at some point wants to know about your second life, what you are doing here, etc. Let's also imagine that in real life you are a very respected professional but in SL you are running a very lucrative escort service providing sexual pleasures to others. The question then becomes, would you tell the person you met in RL what you are doing in SL or would you simply lie about it and don't consider that a moral dilemma since they are two separate worlds? Indeed I suspect even now this reverse deception is possibly more common than we would like it to be and possibly causes much severe consequences when discovered.

Says who?!

Very good point, Snowcrash. And indeed, there have been several scandals and real-life criminal convictions based upon people having separate, secret online lives.

I feel that people who would engage in ill-intended deceptions online are pretty much the same kinds of people who lie in real life. And each can cause equal damage.

coco

The only difference between the two is that it's easier to do in SL. And frankly, the situation katy refers to (along with many other instances I've known in the past) leads me to believe that some people don't stop doing it with SL. They lie in RL too, every chance they can get away with it. And the emotional fallout is similar too -- it's too easy to forget that there is a real person with real feelings behind that avatar.


Interesting question, but a new equation I think. Most people in my RL don't understand what it's like online -- even some who do only have their experience in an AOL chatroom to go by. Usually their eyes glaze over when I talk about it. There is a reason SL is so addictive, and it has nothing to do with rendering engines or network latency. It has everything to do with the real emotions of real people who occupy that virtual place.

That said, I once knew of a man who was wooing 3 different women online at the same time (this back in my IRC days). He also had a wife and children in RL. His wife never knew a thing about his online activities until the weekend he arranged to meet each of the 3 women in turn at a hotel: Woman #1 on Friday night, Woman #2 on Saturday and Woman #3 on Sunday. He didn't realize that #1 and #2 were also offline friends and ran into each other at the airport. After their startling conversation, they contacted #3 and the three of them then decided that a little tit for tat was in order. They contacted his wife and told her the truth. I hear there was a nasty divorce not long after. It's hard for me to feel any sympathy for him.


Until the day comes that the reality-balance (for want of a better word) is equal between the two, such a situation isn't as important IMO. The fact that you can be anonymous in SL cheapens the reality-factor. The fact that you can make multiple alts of any gender -- even the fact that you can change gender on the fly -- means that the 'reality' in SL is nowhere near as firm and embracing as our other reality.

If the day comes that we log into a virtual world where we are as identifiable as we are in RL, and where we cannot simply cancel our identity and restart, then maybe your question will bear equal weight. But that day's not here yet.

Good to see you again Snow Talk to you in world, ok?

*Resists urge to make a Michael Jackson comparison (ohhh my bad)*

Unless MJ had one surgically attached, I don't think that qualifies

what you didnt hear about that? he did it to celebrate after the trial.

Betrayal of trust?

Imagine you're a man who wishes he had been born a woman. All you're life you've felt the need to conform and be something you really aren't. You keep people at a distance because you're a coward and afraid to let anyone know how you really are. Finally along comes the internet and suddenly you're freed to be who you really are and it doesn't matter what your body says you have to be. Finally you can relax, people like you for WHO you are not WHAT you are. But still you know it can't go beyond an online existance. Then you meet someone, you make each other laugh, you have fun together. But then, they seem to want to take things more seriously, maybe they even use the "L" word. You try to keep them at an arm's length, not letting it go too far. Finally you have to think: can I TRUST this person? Finally you draw up the courage to tell this person about your RL self... They scream at you, they call you a LIAR or a BETRAYER before they storm off. You'll probably never see them again. So you are left there, crying your heart out wondering if you could ever trust someone again.

Epilogue:
You vow not to let this happen again. You "come out" and let everyone know that you are really a man in RL. Suddenly you find that you can no longer relax online. You are no longer being judged for WHO you are, but instead for WHAT you are.



I saw a lot of bashing of gender benders in this thread and felt I should share my feelings on the subject of trust. I agree 100% with the original post and I want to say that people who are deceptive and manipulative are scum. I would like to think i'm not that way, but based on what I see many would consider me so....

Zuzu, very good post. I would think that if the individual in question was asked if they were RL male or female and then lied about it, yes that would be a problem. If the question was never asked, then I don't understand how deceit could be claimed based only on the gender of the av.

Years ago in another community, one of my best friends was a post-op transsexual. She was in every sense of the word female, except that she'd had to have surgery to become who she really was. She also was honest with the rest of our community, and still -- in spite of her caring, generous nature many ostracized her. She was judged not for who she was but for what she was.

Kaitlyn committed suicide one evening, alone in her London apartment. The loss was felt all over the world among her real friends. She had not found sanctuary online from the same judgements and cruelties she'd felt offline and that is tragic.

Coco I agree with you, but there are some people who believe that how we behave in one place doesn't necessarily translate into how we may act in another place. These people believe that you could behave poorly in RL but be nice online, behave nice in RL but poorly online, or maybe your conduct in the forums is atrocious but your conduct in world is saintly.

How do you feel about that?

I feel your logic is faulty because of how you define "conduct in the forums" that is "atrocious." What you view as atrocious conduct I would probably view as strenous and impassioned debate over issues.

coco

Well I agree but I wasn't referring WHAT the behavior was (or how people interpret it) rather I was referring to whether or not you can expect the SAME behavior in multiple places by the same person.

So let me restate that question in a more abstract way. You said:



So I ask:

Do you feel people tend to exhibit the the same behavior in one place as they do in another (good, bad, whatever)? For example, would you expect someone's RL behavior (whatever it may be) to match their SL behavior? Would you expect their forum behavior (whatever it may be) to match their In-world behavior?

Hope this clears my question up.

Does that go for "hideous" conduct, too?

The simple logical answer Is you should never Trust anyone , Online or Off.

You should never give anyone the kind of power over your emotions that trusting them gives.


Thats the simple answer.


Of course its nearly impossible to live that way.

Though I know I shouldnt, I find myself wanting to believe what people tell me. Trusting people.

The rewards for trust not broken are great - friendship , companionship, Love.

The danger are terrible.


I guess its up to each person to decide if the risk is worth it.

once you get to know a person for awhile, you can make out what type of person they are. No matter what they do or how they act, there are certain patterns that cannot be changed. I am a honest person if you were to ask me something, i would answer. However, there are those who don't answer honestly. And yes i do agree, that in RL maybe to a point they are dishonest. But, you have to remember that to some of those people SL is just but a game. While to some of us others, it is more. Just trudge through the bad, and look to the good in others.

Thank you Cindy.

No, i've never lied when asked, but I have avoided answering at times when I wasn't comfortable saying, but yes I have been accused of deciet.