Four's Company, Five's a Crowd?

^^ prok you getting threads mixed up ? I dont think adam has posted in this one

You're right. You're absolutely right!

Yours is to criticize, not to be criticized. You may make statements, but none may refute them. You may allege, none may defend. You can speak, but none may speak against you.

You don't want freedom for everybody, Prokofy. You want freedom for you and chains for all others.

Before I respond to Prokofy, I wanted to clarify one thing here. That choice was fully Linden Lab's to make - I had no part in that decision, and did not ask for it. I was unaware of the change, or even how they were accomplishing it, until after the site went live.

Prok, it's an interesting idea.

I think the fact that SS, SLEX, and SLB exist make it clear that one company will appear, start as a monopoly, and be joined with competitors.

I once was the only decent katana seller in SL. I now have plenty of competition. Another example.

yes, I understood that.. I remember the discussion when prokofy got upset for you Cris...

Sorry I should have indicated it was not directed at you, it was directed at Prokofy.

Snowcrash,

I'm not interested in competing with these companies because I'm in a different sector, but I am interested in the formation of the Metaverse and so I do question when such windfalls are given away by the state.

Indeed, it is like Russia because rather than being licensed or auctioned or even regulated (none of these companies have to abide by the TOS, they are exempt), they just do what they want.

I just think we need to become aware of what is happening to our world.

A lot of people don't think it's so wonderful that Microsoft runs all the computers and that google runs all the searches. It's just that we're at the stage when people hand that to them in a way because they're good at it.

But when they stop being good at it, we have a free press and a free judiciary to question them. And indeed, the lawsuits that Microsoft is constantly fighting in courts is proof of that.

But in our little world, the equivalents of the Microsofts or the Googles or the Coca Colas are all above question, beyond scrutiny. That's the issue I'm raising.

Hiro, the SLEX, SLB thing is proof that some areas may brook competition if the tools are accessible enough and if the market share is practical enough. It won't be in some sectors though.

Hmmm, so let's see if I have this straight... if someone comes up with a great idea... an idea so good that everyone wonders why someone else didn't think of it first... and it becomes very successful and popular... then it should be taken away from them and auctioned off? For the public good? Anyone too successful should be hobbled? You've really outdone yourself Prokofy. This is a new level of absurdity even for you.

Snapzilla was not the first site dedicated to posting SL screenshots. Bel Muse's www.2ndlook.org was, and it has been very successful. Cristiano took a good idea and made it even better by cleverly making use of SL's postcard functions. Eventually someone will come along and improve on that. And so it goes.

SLexchange was the first web based marketplace for SL items. People loved it and it became very successful. Others came and put their own spin on the idea and along came Gigas and SLBoutique. All three are doing quite well. Someone will probably come along and one-up them all and do even better.

These are hardly monopolies. They're successful ventures started by people with good ideas and a lot of hard work. You could do it too Prok, but it's so much easier to tear down the work of others because you resent them their success and reputations. Awwwwwwww, poor you.

To be fair, Chip, I recognized Prokofy's goal of enslaving his betters months ago. He's taken many opportunities to refute that, quite out of the blue, ever since.

We should pass around a collection plate and then get Prok a decorative basket of cheese and sausages or something. The success of others is obviously highly upsetting for him. We all hope you feel better soon Prok.

Feta cheese?

Prokofy I was not hurt at all by your comment, just pointing out how dismissive you can be. To have been hurt by it would be to give any credence to your words, which I don't. I have tolerated your constant wave of criticism all along - it doesn't mean I won't push back on your hypocrisy. As far as this all being a pet rock type scenario, then why the hell are you always wailing about "I am saying this as an important public record!". Why are you rallying that I am controlling the gates to the metaverse? If it is all so frivilous and fleeting, why do you care so much?

Once again, ladies and gentlemen, we have classic Prokofy. Prokofy refers to my site as my pet rock, and when I ask about the quality of his accomplisments, then I am attacking poor Prokofy. I would roll my eyes if it would not cause my contacts to shift. I am extremely broadminded - I just have no tolerance for your brand of smugness where you bash someone but are somehow beyond reproach, where you hide behind queries and critiques when really you are just bashing someone. Be the man you always claim Prokofy is and stand behind them instead of just been a critic. Less hyperbole, more directness.

You always talk about cronies, and friends, and Lindens, blah blah blah. I developed this site on my own - no friends involved, no help at all from the Lindens - it was a done deal when I brought it to them to show them. THey did not hand anything to me - quite the opposite. They made their decision about the homepage based upon the success of my site - I didn't go to them about it. The opportunity was sitting there to fill a void in SL, and I did so. Sorry that you did not have the prescience to have done so - that is not my fault, nor my worry.

The same can be said of SLExchange.com, SecondServer, Nexcom, etc.. They took the time and efforts to develop something. People like their work, the Lindens have a policy of supporting user created projects and not competiting against them, and so these things have flourished. There are all kinds of new types of sites that will appear in time. I find that exciting - each new project adds a little bit more to the SL experience, and contrary to your ravings, anyone is free to try.

But of course! And maybe a teddybear too.

I know you have an odd fixation on Russia, but please explain to me what windfall was given to me exactly? No site existed, I created one, people sent pictures to it. The same for SLExchange - no site like it existed, they built it. The Lindens were not involved in either site, nor Gigas or Nexcom. You keep lumping everyone together with this bizarre airwave analogy, and it is quite honestly stupid. Now I will ask this slowly - what windfall did I receive Prokofy, and from whom? You can't point to secondlife.com because I had no part in that, and my site was established before it. The same with SLExchange -where is their windfall, other than the results of their hard work getting vendors to sell through them?

Get him a FIC bear from caffpress

Cristiano, this is how it is done, that's all. This is the new way of making monopolies. I don't care how many fake wikipedia definitions you throw at me, this is the defacto situation.

The Lindens encourage people to make stuff. You make stuff. Then they use it. They're happy, you're happy. You run the thing. There's no point in anyone else coming along then. It's sewn up. It's the Fetaverse.

All you can do is crow then that anybody could have done it, but nobody did do it except you. Then it can for ever more look like it is merit-based. But who knows, maybe it isn't?

Setting up a world in this kind of haphazard way will have its repercussions. There are reasons why things like airwaves are rationed or scarce or licensed or auctioned because of what people get from them. Maybe you only get headaches now and cost. But in 5 years, when everbody uses you because you're "it" as far as LL is considered, so that you have the brand and the marketing venue for your own goods and services and your chose few, it will look very different. You aren't telescoping ahead to see the possible consequences as I am.

I'm happy to accept any critique and I do, and I answer them, and those other threads are filled with them. So all this ranting about how I can't take it doesn't wash.

So, what is the problem? And what would you do about it? I'm not seeing it. I'm seeing a free market at work, and thats a good thing.

I'm personally against market controls by a governing body with certain noteable exceptions that dont exist in SL (Saftey regulations, etc)

Reitsu, why do you call it "market forces" when there's just...well...ONE of everything lol? Honestly, don't you see it?



geez, that's a silly and ridiculously distorted interpretation of what I said, it's an absurdity and I didn't say that.

I said that communications, airwaves, channels, publications are public goods, sometimes limited, and normally auctioned. For example, if you were making a world, a metaverse, and one of the functions you wanted to have was the ability for people to report and have newspapers with photos in them, or just photo exhibits, you'd think up how to create that function, then people would compete among themselves with different versions of it. That's what a free press in a free market is.

With television, you have to auction off or license and regulate the channels to prevent chaos and pirating.

So I view these Internet things related to this game in much the same vein. I don't say "someone has a good idea, take it away from them." That would be insane. That's like the Soviet asking to take away a cow from his neighbour if he doesn't have one.

I'm saying that if you give it some thought, you see that this is a situation not unlike a society with its newspapers, its TVs, it's telephone lines. And that in democratic societies you don't have "just one" of each of these, you have variety.

There's only so much to go around. There's only one front page of Second Life. It's not really reasonable to think of the Lindens saying that 10 other people can now send their snapshots out to tripod or typepad or blospot or whatever. For one, they've already chosen their partner.

My point is that somebody has a great idea how to fill up the one thing there is -- one front page with one service of sending photographs to it -- and then that's it, they grab it, with Linden endorsement, and it's over, it's locked up and a done deal for ever more, except perhaps passed on by inheritance? Or sold on the classifieds?

All I'm trying to think about is the ramifications of making the whole metaverse this way--making the first 10 or 12 bright people who come to SL and fill the niche be knighted and become forever more the Knights Templar who get to always serve the King and always run the particular thing they are running. It doesn't seem like an open, participatory situation to me.

"Cleverly making use of SL's postcard functions" is something you MUST do with LL's sanction. You couldn't otherwise. You can't just run something out of their game without them getting involved. In fact, in other game settings, people argue over whether this is a violation or not, to take game screenshots and post them.




Will they? I don't see how they could. You only need one of each thing. It's a world set up in a very corporatist, fascistic way -- this guild, that guild, one of each, all serving the Fuhrer. That's the structure it has, anyway. And I'd have to say that the sheer touchiness of those discussing this really begs the question of what's going on here.



No, you're still not getting it Chip. That's because you can only conceive of a holistic world where nobody ever dissents, and nobody ever criticizes, and if they do, it must be a calculated, vicious agenda designed as a mere ruse to take over a market sector or bump off a competitor. Why would I be envious of people that make skins or run websites? I'm not interested in making skins or running websites. I'm doing my own thing that I'm happy doing and it will sink or swim but it wouldn't be fun if I had to have it handed to me on a silver platter, and I'm not going to be "envious" of someone who does better, but just try to learn from them. You keep talking from this place of "every critic must be jealous and envious", and I keep seeing that you just don't value the role of a critic, and just don't see this is a generic discussion about the form and shape of the fledgling Metaverse.

One in each sector. One major skin maker. One major animations maker. One eyeglasses maker. One aircraft maker. Then the one photo service. The one cell phone service, etc.
Just one. Just one of everything!

Here's a good summary of the ideas that I'm talking about when I say "corporatism"

Portugal under Salazar was known as a "corporatist" regime. Indeed those ideas continue to bleed into the new generation, sometimes unconsciously.



http://www.applet-magic.com/corporatism.htm

I can't find a better description of Second Life and its economy and economic actors anywhere. It's corporatism, plain and simple.

Prokofy, this is an excellent example of how your ignorance about technology bites you in the ass and renders your arguments meaningless (and well... funny!). Yes, television and radio channels are licensed and considered something that belongs to the public because there are only so many frequencies. Because of that the FCC regulates them to ensure that broadcasters devote some of their broadcasting time to the public good by airing local news and public service announcements. There are repurcussions if they fail to meet their obligations. None of your examples from SL relate to that in even the slightest way because none of your examples make use of a limited resource.



No, that is what you're saying. You're suggesting that things that are not limited should be auctioned off... ideas that are thought up by individuals from their own inventive minds and through their knowledge and technical skills. You would like to rob them of their ideas and make them slaves to the collective.



I'm saying if you'd bother to educate yourself about how technology works you won't make as many half ass comparisons between things that have nothing to do with each other and might not embarass yourself quite as often as you do.



Who gives a rat's ass about the SL front page? There's no partnership involved. What there is is an SL resident who came up with an idea that was novel enough that it got SL free press, which equates to free advertising. Just like with Kermitt and Tringo. Like the smart company they are they're holding up those examples of the kind of innovative fun things that SL residents are creating to show the viewers of SL's front page what kinds of things are possible. The front page isn't made for us. It's not made to advertise to people who are already SL residents. It's there to attract new users who'll come in and sign up and start spending money. They might even buy land from you.



To the victor goes the spoils. Do you have some burning desire to have a competing service to SLpics? Are you pissed off that there's not an advertisement for your in world business there instead? When the novelty wears off they'll put something else there.



It doesn't seem like that to you because you want someone else to do all the hard work for you. You can't congratulate someone for their inventiveness because you resent them for it. You can only tear them down due to your own inferiority complex. Bel Muse was the first person to make a site dedicated to SL screenshots. Shouldn't she be the knight templar? But what happened? Someone came along with a better mousetrap and now it's his turn to bask in a bit of glory. And good for him. He deserves it, just as Bel did before him, and just as someone else will after him.



This isn't other games, and ANYONE could have done what Cris did, and still can. It's not like the send postcard function now belongs to him. Do you even know how SLpics works? Your resentment of him and his accomplishment is pathetic.



Some of the most successful people in SL got here a year after SL opened and displaced people at the top of various empires because they brought talent and new ideas and did things better than anyone had before them. That process will repeat itself as long as SL exists. Even Anshe will be outdone eventually.



It's either envy or unbelievably myopic ignorance. Take your pick.



I was the first person to turn skins into a business and I've done very well from it, but now there are new people here with skills that surpass mine and they're already starting to pass me in success and profit. And good for them. More power to 'em. That's what a free market is all about. There are now dozens of successful skin makers, some of whom I have no doubt will leave me in the dust.

Do all of us a favor and either get a clue or keep your ignorant ravings to yourself.

I guess it's the same as corporations, that's a sticky subject to criticize.

Because on one side you have what they are now, and that is a large not-down to earth, view your customers as faceless entities with wallets, kinda place. And they drive smaller business out of business.

But at the same time, a place doesn't start out as a corporation, they start out as a small business that offered a product that was so popular they could spread their product to more areas, until eventually they became a corporation.

Hobbling the current corporations isn't exactly the best way to do things, especially in capitalism because that's an ideal of communism, but there might as well be a fair play rule so that other small business have a chance to grow, because they all start out as small businesses but what effects their growth is about how many other places that can take them over.

I guess it's an anti-darwinist concept.


But Really that's for real life, and I don't see much of this in Second Life, except for maybe Anshe Chung who tends to buy up successful smaller businesses to make her own grow. But I haven't seen that from any of the "companies" listed here.

Cristiano didn't say, "Hey, Lindens, I make-a youse da offer dat you canna refuse -- you puts my stuff onna yer homepage, or else Echo Omega here sleeps wit da fishes . . . capiche?"

The Lindens decided to stick some outgoing postcard snapshots on their front page, and they wanted pics that people were expecting to be displayed in public, so they grab the ones going to Cris' site. Get it? The LINDENS had the idea, and they did it, without Cris suggesting it. It's really getting dull, watching your habitual attacks on various SL members and groups for things that are either not their fault, or because they did something of merit and were rightfully rewarded for it. You're hassling the wrong target, again.

But this whole thing is a sham anyway. If LL did decide to work a deal with a particular SL biz owner, well, there's nothing wrong with that. This is not the whole world. It's a (A -- one, un, singular) Web site. Linden Lab isn't a government agency. It's a private company. If they wanted to, they could just funnel all the land-parceling biz to Anshe, cut a deal with Chip to integrate his skins as the default, and buy a pile of planes from Cubey and give one to every newb who walks in the door.

Wahhhhhh, the company that sold me this box of breakfast cereal put prizes in it from ONE other company and didn't even invite MEEEEEE to submit my cereal box prize proposal! They didn't even ask meeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee if I wanted to design the box, they just hired a reputable marketing company! They just picked one trucking company, run by this guy the CEO met on the golf course, and now they have a subcontract, and you know, I might have wanted to drive a truck, maybe, if I didn't have these 'roids! IT'S A VILE GOLFERATI CONSPIRACY! Oh, the humanity!

I like to imagine a guy at a restaurant bitching out the server AND the family of four at the next table for eating the salad with the Kalamatas and Feta, subjecting them to a rant about monopolies because the owner decided to buy Feta cheese from only one supplier without posting notices at least a year in advance soliciting bids from all Feta manufacturers, wannabe Feta manufacturers, people who once milked a goat on a school field trip, and any productive and certified-rBGH-free milchgoats able to furnish a green card. OMFG, the FAVORITISM of the FETA INNER CORE!

Anyway, have fun with your roleplay.



Godwin's Law.

Prokofy,

Linden Lab was not involved at all in the development of the functionality of Snapzilla used to take snapshots and process them. They provided no info or assistance, or sanction. I figured it out simply with trial and error. I presented it to them after it was done. You also keep blurring the issue of the front page - I had nothing to do with that and I would appreciate you separating the two. Linden Lab's web site is their own responsibility. The only "sanction" that LL provided is by not objecting to the use of the postcard functionality in this way. On the contrary, they welcomed it, because it opened up a new avenue that no one had done before except on a very very limited scale.

Your airwave auction analogy has no bearing on this concept, I don't know why you keep using it. LL did not provide some precious scarce resource that I somehow monopolized. I create a site from scratch on my own, and offered it for use. I built it, and people sent in pictures. Anyone else could have done this - the fact that I did does not prevent someone else from doing so. Will they be challenged to do it better? Absolutely - they don't get a free ride, but nothing is standing in their way but your excuses.