Outrageously Offended

aimee, I'll bite.

No, it wouldn't have been a big deal for Taco to ask permission first, and only post photos of those who consented. It would have been easy, a really simple matter, and certainly more considerate than what he's done. But that wouldn't have been anywhere near as amusing. The world of SL has different rules than RL, its physics and range of possibilities are different. In the RW I can't point at the ground and cause a 1m pine cube to come into existance, nor can I fly, or grow wings, or dance with any amount of coordination. I can in SL though. SL also has other quirks, like being able to walk into someone else's house if they're not home, leave prims on their property if they haven't set their auto-return just so, buy up land and then sell it at outrageously high prices, or take advantage of newcomers and bilk them of their money, and their First-Land.

One of the quirks of the particular layer of reality that SL resides in, is that you can arrange your camera from nearly any angle, and take snapshots at any time. Knowing that should be enough to make anyone realize that whatever you do in this world can be seen, and photographed by others, from a variety of angles. Even just by standing still, you might be subjecting yourself to the lewd attentions of others, if you have left part of your clothing open from a particular angle.

Lacking clearer definitions from the Lindens on what is or isn't permitted in-world, there will always, ALWAYS be some who seek to "game" the system for less-than-admirable goals....profit, malice, amusement.

-If the issue is one of lewdness, than the ladies in the photographs were being lewd by displaying their panties. If the photographs were both taken and displayed in (M) areas though, then their lewdness is not a problem. Neither, however, are the photos.

-If the issue is one of consent, then we've opened up a whole can of worms, like you've already pointed out. When is consent necessary to photograph another in SL? May I profit off of snapshots that I took of others, if people are willing to buy them? May I irritate others by displaying photographs of their avatars taken from less than flattering angles? Must I ask permission of every av that I photograph? Must I save said permission in the form of model releases?

-No matter what the outcome, even if this recent circus turns out to be "Permitted, but not nice", then Taco should be willing to accept that there may be a great many people who don't like him, because of his actions, even if he isn't disciplined for them.

-The funniest thing about this whole incident is that the more people bicker and argue about this, the more they are part of the joke. It's kind of like when Andy Kaufman went on his Inter-Gender Wrestling Tour. The more that his audiences grew incensed at his antics and screamed or yelled at him, the more they became part of the joke. The genius of it was that his audiences never knew where the joke ended. The tragedy was that, in the end, I don't think he knew where it ended either. Where are the limits of this joke? So far it's extended from an in-world exhibit to go beyond more than 20 pages of forum posts.

You, me, everyone arguing in this are part of the joke. If you don't think it's funny, try explaining the situation to someone who's never heard of second life. Explain to them what an avatar is, and how there are a bunch of people who are really upset that their avatar had upskirt photos taken of it.

Nope. In a mature area that person has permission to show off their own goods. They just can't show off YOUR goods without your permission regardless of the mature status of the land.

Heya Devilock

I've never found that there is a "tried and true view" on Second Life being "just a video game", apart from individual opinions. But this is not the consensus of the community at large.

There are just too many inspiring stories out there that reaffirms in my book, that SL IS a video game, AND it is more. Absolutely, this is what I am experiencing.

So really, for the individual, SL is what you make of it -- as was told to me by some great people when I first came to this gridverse.

Well this is going to be a viewpoint post.

if this were RL I would be caustically militant on the topic, but for some reason that Im strangely comfortable with my brain trivialized it. It could be the virtual setting, it could be because I know Taco is doing it to get a rise (Pun intended)

Im guilty of looking up the occasional skirt, I'd like to say Im guilty of looking strictly from the standpoint of a designer ("hmm those are nice panties, the seam needs work and a bit of smudging, but nice style"... Sadly I cannot say it's the case, I know I've looked because... Well, you've all seen Emma Thorn right? how can you NOT look? Seriously?

Have I taken an upskirt photo, no. And that is the part of me that feels uncomfortable with it. The publishing without permission of women's anatomy, for the most part photo's of which the subject is unaware.

Im not sure why, but it seems to me that men and women have different boundaries as far as privacy goes.

but one thing for certain we can all agree on I hope is that this is a sensationalist topic and perhaps this thread is one for the philosophers, we are not going to decide codex and law here. And, we cannot say that one opinion or the other is the correct one because there is no point in debating opinion.

But I can say this for a fact, if it was RL and I had upskirt pics taken of me, there would be blood... But it's not RL and I really dont know what to think. As a few people have said we develop an attachment to our avatars but there is still a sort of detatchment for me.

Taco's lucky Gen isn't in the gallery tho =P

Ton of good points in there (though a few rehashed ones like the "slippery slope". As for becoming part of the joke...that is one way of looking at it. But remember different people enjoy different things in SL..and one of those things may be political debate

-aimee

It's no different, to me, Jauani. When someone shows the behaviors of being racist or sexist, and others defend those behaviors, the behaviors are real even if the object of their sexism or racism is not. The attitude, the mindset behind it, and the disrespect is very real.

No. I don't feel it's harassment. No one is forcing anyone to do or see anything they don't wish to do or see. I went to the upskirt museum (hooray taco, your idea of creating this thread has gotten one more person to see your place) and by and large, it is possible for ANYONE to make an av that looks 100% like any one of those avs. It would be time consuming and somewhat difficult, but NO av is unique in SL. There is the rare occasion that people create their own textures and upload them and do not distribute them to anyone else and that would be the ONLY truely identifying feature on an AV. I am talking 100 % original texture, completely created by the person who uploaded it. Not cutting and pasting and using something created by someone else. Drawn and created explicitly by the uploading person. Ugh, that was long winded. My point is, there is NOTHING there that identifies anyone beyond any doubt. If someone made a billboard that said "Devilock Onizuka is a nigger", then that would be harassment. Or more appropriately, if Taco labeled every image with the person's name, then I would understand the problem (yet I still wouldn't take issue with it, even if it was me. *shrug*).

As it stands, there is 100% anonimity. There is no issue in my opinion.

i'd like to add i agree with aimee to a certain extent.

taco may not be breaching any legal rules to post these images, but in doing so without the consent of his subjects, he is obviously breaching some social norms amongst a large segment of the community for which he will pay the consequence - socially.

his display might have required that shocking affect to create this kind of stir.

so i'm not arguing that people should like this.

and just because something is art, does not mean it should be protect it from what society values as acceptable. censorship is a commonly used instrument against art that offends society or challenges the authority of insitution.

yes and is that attitude i find offensive too, and is unrealted to avatars. to me.

Devil's advocate post:

Okay this argument doesnt really hold water for me, The Enquirer, the Star, etc all publish pictures of celebs on nude beaches, in compromising situations etc. The internet is flooded with celeb websites that show a nipple poking out or something like that. There are entire porno magazines published out there with candid photos such as upskirt pictures etc.

And sadly, that's in the real world.

I don't like the idea of the objectification of women, it's another nail in the cofin lid we are trying to get out of. But to be honest I like the idea of censorship even less.

All in all SL is still leaps and bounds ahead of RL in equality.

Same. Lines can get blurred when one claims to be "roleplaying" in a certain setting (some sort of digital creative anachronism), but even in those cases, it should be stated that those are not the actual beliefs of said roleplayer -- similar to how Stephen King writes but racists/serial killers/scary demonic clowns/Randall Flagg but is, in reality, none of the aforementioned.

hehe I confess I skimmed 50% of the thread...

How can you just leave me standing
In a world so cold

Maybe your just to demanding
Maybe I'm just like my father to bold

Maybe your just like my mother
She's never satisfied

Why do we scream at each other
This is what it sounds like

When the doves cry........

I totally have issues, called being human, but yes, I do invest real emotions and feelings into sl my friends in SL I have and would do anything to help.
I met my RL husband of 5 years online as well.
You're argument is like saying "people who get emotionally invested over the telephone have emotional problems"

I'm sorry, thats stupid

and no, not a game.

or I would be yelling 'DING' and Aimee would yell 'Doink" when we get a level up,and people would look at her funny

what does that have to do with secretly photographing and then publicly displaying pictures of her crotch?

ya know....

this could all have been averted with pants

Devlock said, "Firstly, I've always felt that people that get emotionally invested in SL or any other video game DO indeed have emotional problems, whether on the surface they appear well adjusted or not."

All this quote says to me is that you're not as familiar with this communication medium as many of us happen to be. It's on a par with saying, "I've always thought that someone getting emotionally invested in a phone call or an exchange of letters has emotional problems."

Edit: GMTA, Mistress.

And my aplologies to the masses, my emoticons can get out of hand, usually I click "disable smiles in this post" :)

the same could be said of soo many things..

*gives Mis a big warm hug*

I read it all but was too exausted to reply point for point.

As for your Devil's advocate post. Here is the part that struck me:


I wasn't advocating censorship. I was advocating consent. You will not find a single post from me that says "BURN TACO'S MUSEUM". I don't think asking for the model's permission for upskirts constitutes censorship. Lets lump this under "slander", and "shouting fire in a crowded theatre" when it comes to the censorship debate.

-aimee

Typically speaking, dear, I have met and have had a personal (IE in person) relationship with with people before any of their letters or phone calls have held any emotional value.

BIG difference. BIG.

yes, life is a sexually transmitted disease

Ferran your put stuff in prespectivery is uncanny!

Despite the varying opinions posted about why Taco is doing this, no one is trying to censor or stop him from taking the pictures and displaying them... if he must. The issue is one of prior informed consent by his models, and there is a distinguishable difference between a celebrity in the public spotlight and a private person.