Outrageously Offended

It's all the eye for detail...

Though, not all men are guilty. I've spoken to a few men in SL who remember better than I do, though granted, it's usually not people that I bothered to take a second glance at, lol.

And no, I'm not naming names, at least not today!

I personally have no problem with this exhibit... But Taco, if there's a pic of my 9-year-old avatar's private region in your museum, it tells more about you than it shows about me.

If it looks enough like you that people will think it is you... then the point is good... It might be Taco doing a reasonable impersonation (also bad, since there's only one reason for this), it might be some other avie that looks like you... (a case in point... look at Nephi's range of clothes at PD... one of her models, Scarlett Butler, and I (also one of her models) could easily be confused unless you know us well... hell, I've got us confused)... however, if it looks close enough to yu that people think it IS you, then it affects you. And legally, this can be enforced... plenty of look-a-like cases have proved this.

Thanks for coming in and making fun of what I value and choose to invest in emotionally! (^_^);; Guess that's the tolerant attitude that makes SL such a great inclusive place. Gee, in RL the things I value could also disappear in a flash of a freak accident or sudden bankruptcy... so... maybe I shouldn't have any friends or familly or care about my job!

Somebody who's upset about privacy and consent issues on the internet - especially if they dare to point out that people care more about sexual privacy than other kinds - boy that's *pathetic*. What does that make the guy who runs around taking secret dirty photos of computer dolls and putting them on display? :-/

Honestly, the more I think about this the more I think Taco knew what he was doing was intrusive, and was either looking for the reaction and attention of the crowd or was getting his jollies out of doing it, possibly both. Because if you actually believe that "it's just pixels that don't matter", or even "there is no privacy in SL, just deal", why bother in the first place? Why not just go and photo edit your own perfect peeping-tom photo like somebody suggested? Why not take photos of SL sex? Why not show how little privacy the camera in SL give us by showing a whole range of photos of people doing things they expected to be private. Why not show people's underwear displayed for all the world to see while the rest of their clothes were still appearing on a big lag day? Why not take photos of elbows? Why not just simply ask for permission? Why not get together with your friends to play "peeping-tom photographer" with their knowledge and consent before hand?

Taco didn't do any of those things. Taco took a bunch of photos up women's skirts without their knowledge and without their consent - exactly like the creepaziod stalkers in RL.

It really seems like the whole point of the action is the intrusion - which is I guess why it's upset me so much! Guess I'm dense, or was is it uppity? But it sure seems like objectification and exploitation of women, and encouragement of predatory behavior to me!

I can barely handle this chat any more... It's so long, new people are coming in and just repeating stuff that was dealt with pages ago, but *I* think it's real simple:
- Don't pictures of anybody to use in your projects with out their consent. You take pics for yourself, you catch somebody in the background or a crowd... no big deal. You go out of your way to feature a particular Avie 'cause you wanna use their picture in an ad for your hair style, a magazine or a dirty movie... Ask!
- Sexual privacy matters more to people than other kinds. If you don't like it, or don't value it... sorry, please respect the rest of us. And just because there's sexism and exploitation rampant in SL or RL is no kind of excuse not to try and stop it!




I guess it just makes me sad that we're playing a game where I need to ask permission before I can give somebody a hug, but don't need to ask if I wanna take exploitive photos of you and publish them for all the world to see... Makes you wonder how you wanna spend your time doesn't it?

The biggest tragedy is that Taco beat me to doing my own candid photo gallery. The subject was a great one.. I called it the 'Newbies in Ahern firing guns wearing Pimp Hats I gave them and for some reason they accepted and immediately put on with zero prompting'. I was up to about six or seven shots, myself. My partner Cereal had his own collection of 'Newbies in Ahern firing guns wearing Party Hats'. His collection was a bit larger and was a competition between us for a brief while. And to think I was curious if *I'd* end up causing trouble if I went through on offers of public exhibition...

Taco was just truely a pioneer and went for a baser subject, leaving high art like mine in the dust. ad:

Also: This sure is a big thread.

Well this brings us back to the "slippery slope" arguement that I tried to address earlier. Normally this arguement goes like this:

"If we punish Taco for displaying nudes without the models permission...then what next? Punishment if the nude was Taco in an aimee weber av? Punishment for posting PG group photos without asking permission of everybody in the group? Eventually we will have to ask permission to say HI to someone...and then we will have to ask permission TO ASK PERMISSION to say HI... Eventually the Lindens will automate our ENTER keys so we get harassment charges filed against us every time we press it!!!"

OK. On a case by case basis the Lindens are going to determine what is reasonable, and they are going to be balanced in their reasonsbleness. It's not in the Lindens best interest to stifle creative activities in SL any more than it's in their best interest for SL's women to feel harassed and helpless.

But on that subject...if this whole thing DID lead down a slippery slope, and there WAS unreasonable perscution of legitimate art in the name of hyper sensitivity as a knee jerk reaction to the Taco issue, I would put the political energy I have demonstrated in this thread towards halting the trend.

I don't believe we have to prevent ourselves from doing a good thing for fear it will lead to a bad thing. Do the good thing...and when the bad thing comes along, put a stop to it.

-aimee

I agree with this. In Esquire magazine they have a column called "10 Things You Didn't Know About Women" or something along those lines. I remember one of them was, "We're not really jealous of the women you think are hot. We're jealous of the ones we think are hot."

It is easy to please men when dressing, yes? All you have to do is throw on something revealing. For women ... egad.

By the way...THIS...is a BRILLIANT point!

If we give what amounts to sexual harassment a green light in the name of "we are just pixels, it's not real." I think we should list other offenses that are equally invalid in SL like racism.

-aimee

Sincerely, your pettiness makes me ill.

ok wait. Taking and displaying upskirt photos of women without asking permission or notifying them is acceptable behavior. But asking a Linden about it and giving these girls a heads-up is petty? Do I have this right?

-aimee

Apparantly thats art....

I don't know much about art - but I know this: DuChamp's urinal was a peice of piss.

Guess it's in the eye of the beholder -- some may see art... and some may see a self loathing perv trying to justify wanting to peek up mommy's skirt...

I guess it's all in how you look at it

Um, the real world does not end if the corporation that owns it goes out of business. At least, not as far as I know. Also, you were born into the real world whether you wanted to be or not (at least, as far as I know!) and you don't get to choose your sex or many of the things about how you look. You certainly don't get to choose whether or not to take your sex organs with you when you go somewhere unless they're in a jar. I know this isn't a debate forum but honestly you will have to do better than such an obvious equivocation.



Oh, I think that's pathetic too. I honestly do not know which is more pathetic; taking and publishing upskirt photos or getting upset about someone else doing it. Either way, it's comedy gold.

It does?
oh...
I think I'll live..
day by day.

Yes.

It is petty and childish. Yes, more childish than starting this museum in the first place.

I am glad to hear this. I wasn't tryint to 'attack' you. I was expressing myself. Isn't that the purpose of these forums?

Well the conversation thusfar has been very civil and informative. Yours was the first personal swipe that wasn't diluted with at least SOME insight on the issue...and there haven't been many personal attacks.

Would you care to weigh in on how you feel about the issue in general? Or would you prefer to just take more random shots at mis?

-aimee

This is all reminding me of a skin creator... getting a custom request to make a
"young vunerable asian child" av for sexual purposes. The artist declined.

Most of your argument "its just a barbie doll" and this would "be ok" to you.
well, to me it's not. and to me, upskirt photos are not.

Yes, our AVs can be sexual, and since there are people behind them, we can also feel humiliated, exploited, and harassed.

Sio made an excellent comment, the arguments of "barbie doll" are stupid.
It's saying we aren't allowed to have emotions behind our avatars.
I don't get it.
This isn't a game kiddies, its more of an interface through which we communicate.

Certainly.

My point of view on this issue stems from the tried and true view that "SL is just a video game."

Does this explain it clearly enough or do I really have to elaborate?

No need to elaborate, the "it's just a video game" point has been made and was addressed. Given your comments I think I know how you feel about the sexual harassment angle of this issue (as you say it's just a video game).

Would you extend your your arguement to other areas such as racism as Jonquille Noir suggested earlier? Would you say racist behavior is acceptable in SL since it's just a game? Are there any OTHER behaviors that people make a big deal out of that you feel should be ignored?

-aimee

Firstly, I've always felt that people that get emotionally invested in SL or any other video game DO indeed have emotional problems, whether on the surface they appear well adjusted or not.

The only thing I feel is unacceptable in SL is ACTIVE, PERSISTANT, AGGRESSIVE harassment. An image on display in someone's parcel does not constitute active, persistant, aggressive harassment in my humble opinion. This applies to racism, sexism, and any other form thereof. If you're black and someone calles you a "nigger", mute them. If the person then makes a giant sign that says "nigger" and follows you around and FORCES you to see it and they won't leave you alone, go ahead and file your abuse report.

People LOVE to get righteous and have a "cause". It makes me sick.

lol just reminded me of the bully at school who smells kind of like pee yelling "tattle tail" when he cut some little girl's pigtail off and she went to tell teacher

i take offense at the racial slur itself. it is a racial slur referring to the race of a real body on the other end of the network.

for example if some one were to call my white avater some racist comment, i would find it offensive but i would not be offended. it wouldn't effect me emotionally but i would take action for moral reasons. if someone were to call my brown avatar nigger, or more appropriately, paki, i would be offended and angered, that statement have slipped past protective boundary of digital mediation and attacked directly my embodied self.

when someone is insulting the race of an avatar, they are really attempting to insult the person at the other end, believing that person to project their RL gender/race.

Hey, I just realized something....

If I'm walking around a mature area, and see a female type avatar sitting on a bench, and I happen to glimpse a flash of panties, or heaven forbid, some nether region, do I get to file a complaint with Linden, 'cause she didn't get my permission to show me her stuff?

Hmm.....

There you go again, Aimee... It's completely unfair for you to bring logic and rationality into this!

Ok you make a great point but maybe we fine tune your anaology so it matches what is happening.

Someone "calling me a nigger" to me would more closely resemble taco pulling a naked upskirt photo of me...showing it to some people, and then putting it away. Transient in nature.

On the other extreme, someone pulling out a big sign that says nigger and following me around would be similar to Taco following me around with a big nude of me. You and I both agree harassment?

So lets make the final match up to what is actually happening here. What if someone makes a big sign with your photo labeled "nigger", places it on display along with with other similar photos, and then advertises the display in the forums.

How would you feel about the final scenario. Cause basically that is the anaology that more closely matches what is happening here. Only instead of racism, it's sexual harassment.

Looking forward to your thoughts
-aimee