Is telehub land value more important than direct teleporting?

Down with Telehubs.

Up with Point-to-Point Travel.

Av Power!!!!!

Most people who bought land considered the location of hubs. Residential areas don't want the malls/clubs, they buy far from the hubs because they offer tps to their friends or set up a group to give friends a home. Killing hubs will destroy their happy little corner.

Also small shops want to be near a hub, doesn't have to be at a hub, so their customers can fly there quickly from the hub. Being within 200m is pretty good. Those shops don't lag you as you rez at a hub, they aren't near you, but they lose the value of their land, they might have paid twice it's value based on what everyone thought was how it will be.

So we can safely say nearly everyone who bought land considered the hub distance to either avoid the lag caused by clubs and malls or offer close access to small stores.

Last point, this opens the door to inside trading. Those who know of the changes before they become official could be telling others, who profit by selling high when they know the value is about to drop dramatically.

just my opinion

For your reading pleasure, this topic has been discussed here:

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If that's not controversial, I don't know what is.

Enjoy!

Hey Travis if I openly admit that I'm a no good lazy bum, will you trim your list to the threads that contain Linden replies?

Thanks a million.

I hear ya, Khamon - you want a definitive answer from the Lindens on this subject. I think that's fair to request - but unrealistic to expect with any degree of clarity.

Because.... this issue is controversial. If this were a discussion about Havok 2, we'd get a clear answer, and an overview of the roadmap.

But this issue is one in which any deviation from current policy will affect *everyone* in a monumental way. Whether that's good or bad, is up for debate. But I wouldn't expect much more than a "We're discussing it internally" kind of answer until 2.0 has played out. This whole issue could become irrelevant by then, assuming better rendering and vehicle crossings.

But we can keep asking, and rehashing. Thank god pixels are free.

Judah I avoid cookie-cutter malls in both lives too.

It took me a while to find good stores, but I didn't mind. I'm still spending lots of time flying around, sometimes looking on Find, sometimes just exploring and finding them. Its more fun than just staying on a few properties all the time.



Please please leave out the commercial level. We get too much advertising and billboard type vendors as it is. Point to point teleporting is so appealing because we could finally avoid the worst tacky garish junk. The idea of that junk flying around over everybody's homes is horrible. I'm so glad the poll shows how popular point to point is.

Everyone and their mother should know by now that my computer is complete crap-- I talk about it constantly. So it should come as no surprise that I REALLY REALLY REALLY HATE TELEHUB MALLS. And I really don't like going to a store that happens to be in a mall because that means I have to render ALL THE OTHER STORES TOO. Lag City.

But I do find Telehubs useful as a means of zoning. And while I may not like the 100% Pure Hot Lag-On-Lag Sandwich Orgy 4Evr&Evr every time I 'port, I'd rather have it concentrated in one area than in my backyard.

The solution: Raise the telehubs up to 200m. That way, everyone avoids the lag, the mall owners don't have a bitch fit because of all the money they spent, zoning stays intact, and you won't run into anything when you fly off into the sunset because you're already up so high.

It's simple, elegant, and Copyright 2005, Nikolaii Uritsky. F' real.

I voted for NO because to me its way more important to be able to go directly to where i want to go than worry about being landed in a shopping centre miles from there which I have no interest in and adds time and effort to my day.

It's like refusing to allow your taxi to go to the place you want to get out at, and making all taxi go to the bus station miles out of town, and then saying please walk to your home from here and don't forget all the shops and adverts we have on the way home

I want multiple direct home settings between my two main home sims, and I would like to go just where I want to go, and have customer and visitor go to my places without a 3 sim flight from nearest hub. The old way should give way to the new.

No one asked permission to bring in vendor machines to SL or worried that they would make physical item stores go out of business, it just happened, its invention, progress. Same again, I think. Let's have direct transport not unwanted dumping of travellers miles from where they wish to go.

I voted no as well. Some of the best shops in SL aren't near telehubs, but can be a real pain to get to with all the paranoids running their security scripts. Not to mention flying into non rezzed buildings, and bieng used as target practice for flying over someones non safe land just because it is the quickest way, following your red bar. So yes P2P I believe would be a good thing.


Also would be nice to be able to get to my different plots of land without having to fly in from the telehub, as we can only set one home for now.
Just my cent and a half

I would support p2p from your land to your other land. In fact if the parcels are on the same sim I use a tp box. But if you really held a vote, one that mattered, as this is a poll of a hand full of people who actually read the forums, you would see, people buy land away from hubs for a good reason and p2p would kill that. The store owners aren't the only ones that hate the idea. Yes, they would loss millions of L in land value, but worse would be allowing a club like The Edge to move into your back yard because hubs are no issue.

My guess is p2p has no chance in hell no matter what this or any other poll says. But that's just my humble opinion lol

Au contraire, Kevn; Lindens are not afraid to make sweeping changes if it seems to be the best course of action. Robin Linden makes the following statement here:

"We've been debating the telehub system, and whether we shouldn't rethink the way we've structured transportation. The original thinking was that telehubs would serve as central places for gathering, focal points for commercial development, and magnets for more urban styling. The result is only partially consistent with that thinking. We also placed them relatively far apart, to encourage local travel (walking, flying) on the assumption that you'd have a chance to meet more people in a random sort of way. I'm not convinced that has happened either, although I could be mistaken.

Thanks for your feedback on the system. If anyone else has ideas to contribute, please add to the discussion."

And, like Travis has said, this point has been debated on forums in the past, but that doesn't mean there isn't room for more voices to be heard on the issue. The fact that point-to-point teleporting (Prop 89) is sitting at number four on the voting page (when you subtract the proposals that have been marked accepted) says something Lindens can't ignore about community sentiment re: telehubs.

I agree Beryl. The Lindens aren't the least bit afraid of making radical changes to the world. The release of 1.2, estate sims, auctions and non-terraformable land proved that. On a smaller scale, the random addition of sims and telehubs seem to be no problem for them either.

Business and group projects adapt or collapse in response to these types of changes. It all depeneds on how savvy the owners are and whether or not they really want to work at making money or are just playing business house.

Thanks for the reply Travis. Now I'm wondering if you're just pulling my leg. Clearly roadmapping Havok 2? I don't know whether to laugh or cry.

With P2P teleporting, you won't. At all.

Clubs will set up shop wherever the land is cheapest. That means smack dab in the middle of existing "residential" areas. So, for every house/small dwelling you're going to have a club next door, and perhaps a casino/mall on the other side for good measure.

Telehubs are somewhat effective at dragging these eyesores to a central area, preventing your quiet neighborhood from becoming the next lagged Club Sandwich sim.

Mark my words... if P2P teleporting is brought back, the grid will homogonize into a worse mishmash of commercial shit than it is now.

LF

Well, I don't agree LL is willing to upset 90% of their base to make 10% happy. Many who bought land for one of the reasons I stated, to avoid the malls or to make a mall will be hurt. They are LL's bread and butter. The few who like the idea are mostly basic account holders or people with little land or people who don't invest that much into the game. As a businessman I can tell you from experience a company that wants to survive doesn't punch their investors in the nose. From that I come to he conclusion p2p is dead.

Sure they are debating it, but they debated many things that didn't happen. After the debate it comes down to the bottom line, what is good for SL as a company, not as a community.

But hey, what do I know?

Well, I can only speak from personal experience, but I haven't found telehubs to be particularly useful as passive zoning. The sim I decided to call home was 2/3rds for sale when I found it, so we've had lots of people come and go. I'm 800m from a telehub and two or three clubs tried to move in next door, until we bought up most of the surrounding land and pretty much put a stop to it. One was quite successful, filled with avs every night. They left not because of the distant telehub, but because they were hosting mature content despite the sim's PG rating. There is still a PG club-like thing in the corner of our sim, which probably has more active scripts than the rest of the sim put together and keeps my bandwidth meter pegged whenever I fly over there. And a casino near the Linden road. And a large mall in all its lagging glory is in the next sim over. This is in PG snow land, again, almost a full kilometer from the nearest telehub.

So sure, it could be worse, but being far from a telehub didn't keep this stuff out by any means. If that's all the protection that this passive zoning can afford me, I'd rather have point-to-point. The sim rating seems far more effective at passive zoning, since that stymied at least a couple club owners, and I like the no-dwell zone idea as well. The trump card will be when resource allocation is finally proportional to the land you own. Seems like more and more successful establishments are moving to their own islands now anyway, which shows you how much they care about mainland telehubs.

Let's see.... we could log in to the map.. have lists of popular places, shops, clubs ect. ect that we would click on and go to instantly.... OH!!! wait this is SL not TSO!!

I agree.

The current problem, as I see it, is a deficiency in the software's ability to render these commercial areas in a timely manner.

If LL thinks they can resolve the rendering, performance, and sim crossing issues in a timely manner, I am all for keeping telehubs.

I think telehubs have worked at keeping the majority of commercial builds in proximity to the hubs. I think that LL should maintain a larger area of Linden land surrounding hubs, or raise the hubs to an elevation that would allow travelers the opprtunity to get to their destinations w/o getting stuck inside of a craporific mall.

I think the question is alot more than just maintaining land values near the hubs. If that where the only factor to consider, then of course LL would have to make the change that was in the interest of the long term development of SL. I am not convinced that P2P is in fact in the best interest for our long term growth.

Moving to a private island has many advantages, including having your own telehub area at a greatly reduced cost.

I think the move to the islands has been due to cost, performance, and control issues.
If given a cost/performance effective choice for a mainland hub sim, I am sure most of the private islands would not be.

More power to the avatars. Less power to the Man. End teleports!

Av Power!

First I loved the idea of raising the hubs, but hub sim landowners would just raise their billboard type vendors and other garish tacky things. They want to be in your face.

LF I guess the mishmash you're warning about is even worse than what we have now.


Following your worst-case thinking we'd have to back away from anything LL might do to make the telehubs more people-friendly by letting us avoid the junk if we want. Any LL changes to improve telehub sims that way would mean less incentive for that stuff to cluster at the hubs.

I'm trying to look at the problem from the retailer's perspective too. There are so many commercial telehubs. How can a retailer afford space at each one? Fewer commercial telehubs and more Linden type telehubs like Waterhead might benefit the travellers like me and the retailers too. Ummm but I guess the cost of retail space at the fewer commercial telehubs would go up so the cost to a retailer would be about the same. Fewer more costly locations.

Funny how it all comes back to island sims if you want to really fix these problems. I don't want to give up on the mainland, though. It has such a wonderful sense of history, like the Governor's mansion.

I'm speechless in the face of this presentation of such carefully researched and overwhelming numbers. I suggest that LL base all their future business decisions on the effects they will have on 90% of their base. It's good that they can so easily assess what their bread and butter want so that they never ever upset the applecart.

Of course I could just as easily claim that a resounding 75% of the regular premium player base want p2p teleportability and will quit playing over the next six months if they don't get it. The only people who want to keep telehubs are the 7% land holders that own lots adjacent to telehub land. If LL would rather have 15% of their teir base left in six months rather than 75%, who am i to argue.

There, that's about as accurate and good an argument.

I didn't say anyone was leaving tho now you mention it sevaral might.

I absolutely disagree a single premium user would leave based on this issue. They joined with the rules as they are, they stayed past the trial period. I would bet very few if any of the premium account holders with 512m2 would leave and I would give you good odds on that bet. Changing the rules in a way that would harm those who invest large sums( by buying land and creating business) would be more likely to push them(the large investors) to pick up the pieces and leave, after all they stand to lose the most. Or maybe they would keep a basic account. If I were in that position I would do just that. Fortunately my ox isn't gored either way, unless SL suffers.

Imagine the feeling one would have when the value of their sim drops by 50%. This is real money, not $20 or $30us. Some people have thousands invested in land near hubs, is it "so sorry, Charlie" for them? Do you suspect LL cares about them? Those are the people who might leave imho. If they leave you would see a serious drop in land value because they are the ones who pay the tier fees to hold all that land open for sale. I would guess any land owner would suffer by the loss in land value, but new people would get a bargin on land. Imagine all land for $1L per meter. woot lol

That's how I see it, but I don't expect anyone else to agree with me. Time will tell it all if it ever happens. Sure is fun speculating

I would love to see p2p porting, but only for locations we have Landmarks for. Telehubs would still be well traveled, their land more valuable, and new areas would still be explored; but it wouldn't force those of us who know where we're going and don't plan on exploring on the way to fly through laggy telehub areas.

I just wish for the ability to mark more than one place home. There are several places I go to regularly, and the one I go to most often besides home is 800 and something ms from the telehub.

coco

I love this idea!