SL: Globalism or Nationalism?

I don't really want to extend a monolithic debate any further, and I see that since I visited this thread yesterday the principle theme has been a lack of communication, particularly listening. Sad actually, because for the most part I understand what Coco is trying to say, but I also understand the objections that others have.

Still, what the hell, I'll say the following, for myself, of course.



Stoneself, I have no idea what you're trying to say here. It sounds very Zen, but for the record:

No, it's about the same conflict. Just in a different light.
Yes, the notion that there is no stratification is naive. So I assume we agree?
Yes, conflict between strata isn't a given, but when thousands of statistical and analytical studies by historians, sociologists, political scientists, and economists over the last 140 years indicate that where there's human society there's always strata, and where there's strata there's almost always conflict, it's a good bet, I think.



*shrugs.... My fault for using the phrase "your job." I wanted to say that a better tactic for handling people who believe there's some sort of class stratification in SL and that it creates a problem is to give them an alternative, rather than to simply deny that it exists. Because, obviously, what does exist is their dissatisfaction. If you'd rather treat them as clowns, cranks, and losers, well, that's an historical strategy, too, but it generally hasn't worked as well as the first. Or you can do whatever you like. My apologies for sounding like I was trying to tell you what to do.

As for historical evidence, see my above comments to Stoneself.

btw, you've mischaracterized my argument about whether class and conflict exists in SL. "Someone, anyone" is not what I wrote about. That's an argument that supports the "individual crank" hypothesis. I said that if a group of people believe that strata and conflict exists, and if they are able to convince others (a larger group), then by definition, it does. And yes, you could make a case that they created it, but again, by definition, if they created it, it exists, and it may become a problem.

I don't know what you mean by "scapegoating".



Modern revolutionaries almost always claim that a first step in the revolution is to "educate the masses" as to how miserable and oppressed they are, and how much they are victims of a small class of people in power. Doesn't matter whether they go by the names Jefferson, Robespierre, Trotsky, Goebbels, Mao, or Bin Laden, that first step - education of people who are angry and dissatisfied, but don't know quite why - is regarded as critical. (I could point out the analogy to the tactics of some people who regularly post on this subject in these forums, but then I might be invoking Godwin's Law, so I won't. ) And almost always, the reaction of those in authority is "wonderment" and denial that the problem exists at all. (And I suppose I could point out the analogy there, too - but honestly, I don't want to be insulting.) Mobilizing those who are dissatisfied and turning them against another class, imaginary or real, is a second step because it creates the crisis that can then be exploited. And the object for those who mobilize and those who follow is to replace the authority of the few - again, real or imaginary - with the authority of the "many". In practice, of course, it usually turns out that the revolution simply replaces one set of masters with another.

Mao Zedong and Leon Trotsky are the ones to read on this. Their commentaries on these often-ruthless strategies are generally brilliant. (For the record, I am neither a Maoist or a Trotskyite. I can, however, say that while I do not share their beliefs, I find their explanations of their methods fascinating.)

I know that this is an "academic" answer to your post, Chip, but I think it pertains. I do see your point about intolerance and imaginary enemies, and I understand that SL is a "fun" place where these sorts of things shouldn't happen. And I don't know if they really are. However, I do see some evidence, not yet compelling, and largely from curiousity, I'm concerned.

We do talk a lot about building a new kind of society in SL, and a number of us have made the point that this society will likely borrow many bricks from RL societies. I believe that if such a society emerges, it will be founded on RL examples. But if I believe that, then I have to recognize the possibility that various familiar conflicts will also emerge in SL as it matures. Stratification and struggle are among those familiar conflicts.

Academic or not it was very well articulated and I very much agree that the examples and methods you presented are corrolary to what I'm trying to get at. It is exactly those things that I find so disconcerting. Well said Seth. Thanks.

You know, I started reading this thread with great interest. Wow, I thought, here's a great discussion of the way that Second Life is evolving, and what it means to all of us, Linden and resident alike. I'm afraid it's starting to veer off into unproductive territory though.

Before it goes too far off-track, let me pose a question for you. What do you think the core values of SL are (or maybe should be)? Here's some of my ideas (not in any particular order):

- diversity
- tolerance
- free expression
- creativity
- entrepreneurship
- global community

Robin, I think your list of core values is perfect and I'm not sure I can think of any to add to it. The thing that first made SL grab me and realize that I'd stumbled across something wonderful was the ability to express myself creatively here and to truly make a part of it my own... an expression of me, my creativity, and the things that I find beautiful. There's simply no other virtual world that can touch SL in what it offers in that regard.

The second thing was knowing that everything I saw around me was the result of someone else expressing themselves in the same way, regardless if their skills with the tools. Some of the things I've found most beautiful are probably some of the builds that other people might find to be eyesores, because I know someone poured themselves into the joy of creating, no matter that what they ended up with wasn't exactly the taj mahal. I've seen visual wonders in other worlds created by a staff of professional artists but somehow they just don't compare because they lack that something personal.

After that, and especially as SL grows bigger and bigger, it's the diversity... that I meet so many friendly and wonderful people from all walks of life and all manner of lifestyles that I wouldn't have met otherwise. And on top of all that to be able to use my creativity to become an entrepenuer in a way I never imagined I would when I first signed on... I never expected to be here so long. Every other online game had me bored to tears within six months. Two years and counting and my enthusiasm for SL is as strong as it was in my first week, and maybe more than that.

I wonder if some of the discontent I see is a result of the quality of content having gone up so much compared to the stuff we were making two years ago, and a feeling of pressure to "compete" instead of just experience the fun of creating for the sake of it.

I would put my ideal values for the game as:

1. Creativity
2. Fun
3. Diversity and tolerance (they go together, and I like them)

coco

I have thought of that as an issue - the quality level of products in the past year has been phenomenal - every time the bar gets rasied, someone else comes along and shatters the bar in a lot of ways. On top of that, you don't have the usual churn you have in online environments - many of the big established retailers are still around. I imagine certain markets are hard to break into them, with big name vendors already selling extremely high quality stuff in their multiple store locations. (I say this as someone with 12 stores).

It is one of the reasons I look at new products and constantly try to find unestablished players doing quality stuff to buy from. It is important that we keep as many avenues open for new players as we can. There will always be barriers to entry in a competitive market - but I hope that we can break down some of them - the market is large enough and diverse enough to sustain it.

plus
humanity, compassion, wisdom

global community is automatic. do you mena global culture? harmony between all segments of the global community?

I agree completely. I love to try and encourage people. Another concern I have is when people get bent out of shape about being next door to an "ugly build" because I think that can be so discouraging to people who just want to have a place of their own to experiment with creating who haven't done it before. I wish people would realize that the act of people learning to express themselves creatively who may not have done it before is a beautiful thing no matter what they actually build.

I think it's a great list, and all things I see in SL right now.

I might add community self-sufficiency, not as something to engrave in stone with the other key goals, but as a reminder.

I love this experiment, this premise that you can take on the multimillion-dollar studios by:
1. delivering a technology platform
2. harnessing the power of the global community
3. investigating whether human beings have the ability to self-organize in a chaotic environment to create something truly great.

I love the genetic diversity idea embedded in this design -- i.e. that no single creative director can capture the next-big-thing the way thousands, even millions, of creative minds can. The only thing I want to see from Linden Lab is really good, stable enabling technology (including better collaborative tools) and either better doc, or better systems/support around education to give every newcomer the chance to make something great with enough application.

I'd hate to see this vision, this experiment go off track simply because some people aren't having fun or aren't able to break-even on their business ventures. It's TOO EARLY. The technology isn't there yet that you can come close to judging whether this experiment will work or not.


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Now, this thread has exploded faster than my ability to keep up, but a few notes:

- seth, totally agree that human society = strata, and where there is strata there is conflict

- a point was made that recurring topics mean that those topics are clearly problems -- I disagree. There are always people on all sides of an issue. That doesn't mean the design in question is flawed. Sometimes people are wrong. SL can't be all things to all people.

- barriers to entry for newcomers will exist. That is a fact of life. As I've said before, the world isn't going to start over just because someone has decided to join in. To be honest, I think there's lots of people in SL who play at entrepreneur but don't really understand what it is about. It is HARD. Most new businesses fail. It is fun for some and miserable for others. It requires brains, work, networking and luck. There is NOTHING wrong with just being a consumer and having fun!

In RL, we have the Small Business Administration and venture capital and other structures to help people get off the ground. So far, similar things are limited within SL. I think it admirable what established people are doing (like Chip inviting new designers into his store, like the City Girls running a new designer fashion show) to foster competition and new blood. But not everyone can be an entrepreneur, and not everyone SHOULD be one -- they'll just make themselves miserable.

We can't keep the quality of the system down simply because we want everyone to have fun making money and playing entrepreneur. We cannot let SL be about the lowest common denominator.

From the evolution of my thinking about SL recently, and from an issue outlined in another thread, the following two interrelated concepts should be emphasized:

- inworld professionalism of all kinds
- the value of talent, experience, and professions not normally associated with digital environments, but necessary to a modern human community.

There is no such thing as "entitlement" in my world

Amen. Subsidies <<<< Sponsorship. I know of a handful of commercial enterprises in SL that want to sponsor events in return for various levels of promotion of their product. IM me for details.

I've a general theory that says we build all simulations (games, virtual worlds, even things like movies and television shows) for four seperate reasons, and it's not unreasonable to think that we're here in real life for the same four purposes:

- Education
- Entertainment
- Creation
- Socialization

If you look at these purposes, it's not hard to infer a reasonable set of values. In my opinion, if you learn a little, have some fun, and create a few new things - all while being reasonably good to others - you're doing alright

The place where I see the highest level of disagreement is in what "being reasonably good to others" means. To some in this world, this means nothing more than just not killing innocents...to others on the other end of the spectrum it means giving practically everything they own to everyone else and putting themselves absolutely last.

Where do I stand? If you care enough to wonder you probably know already

A shame that I believe you have completely missed my statement.

Yes, it is a shame you believe that.

Curse my inattentiveness.

S'alright. Perhaps I did miss your statement.

Oh excellent question!

All of the above plus:

-integrity
-pride
-cultivation of ideas
-equal opportunity of expression whether it be verbal or creative.
- empathy
-dignity

Cat

There is, without a doubt, a group of people on the forums, call them FIC if you want, who nearly always agree with each other, supporting another in the group if they are attacked etc. To most of us it is irrelevant as we are determined to put our own views across, whether they are ignored or derided by said group.

I have also noticed that they mercilessly attack some people's threads and posts, to the point of cruelty. If we consider Prokofy for a moment, no-one would say they agreed with all of his posts, but regardless of the subject or his opinion, he would be sworn at regularly and it was like watching animals with a prey. I have seen the same attacks against Catherine, to the point where for a while she stopped posting on here because of the vile posts against her.

For goodness sake stop and think what you are doing to the other person, regardless whether you disagree with the posts or not. Where is your humanity?

Had I never read the forums, you would all be anonymous and no different from any other resident.

Alexa

<slap>

No!

<slap>

Bad Alexa. Bad.

Straight to bed without any supper.

?

Buster is trying to pick up the trolling slack left by Prokofy and Blaze. Ignore him.

As for your post, Alexa, I have to say that I find it disappointing to hear yet another person write off opinions they don't like by characterizing them as the work of some kind of mob. There's not a single person on the forums I don't disagree with on some issues. I also agree with just about everyone in one area or another. It seems that any time any forum regulars are in agreement on something that's in disagreement with anyone else, people accuse them of being a mob, the FIC, or some other trite label designed to dismiss their individual opinions. It's a cheap shot. Since you're not the only one who does it, does that make you also part of a forum mob? These things work both ways.

I was thinking this exact same thing. I guess we are supposed to be thick-skinned enough to take it...

Chip

As for your post, Alexa, I have to say that I find it disappointing to hear yet another person write off opinions they don't like by characterizing them as the work of some kind of mob.

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Chip, I did not say a mob and I do not write off the opinions of anyone. I read each post and agree or disagree with them, regardless of who the author is. Please do not misunderstand me. I did not suggest that I disagree with people just because they are in a perceived group.

Alexa

Moi?

Nay, I'm just being exceedingly silly. Just poking fun at the notion that "FIC" is a dirty word.