SL: Globalism or Nationalism?

I suspect class conflict does exist in SL, although it's not as dependent on economic factors as in RL, and more dependent on social factors and longevity inworld. It's like the kinds of conflicts and divisions that exist in small towns where economic differences aren't great and the currency of authority is one's social connections.

Whether it exists or not isn't really all that important to me; what's important is why do people believe it does, and what are the effects? In other words, are these attitudes signficant or insignificant? Are they destructive to the community and the economy, or not? At this point, I don't have an opinion on that.

Yes, I agree that there have been some people on these forums and inworld who have used demagogic tactics. But the fact that they've been at least mildly successful in attracting sympathy among others indicates to me that class conflict does exist.

It wasn't "Stipends." It was "Subsidies."

coco

ya'know? this sounds like "there is class conflict because people can talk about class conflict".

knowing you, i suspect you have some other evidence than the fact someone is a partially sucessful demagogue.

using your logic, i could argue that because the demogoguery isn't completely successful that there is no class conflict.

But how can you delve into its effects if you don't acknowledge that it exists? If you don't have an opinion on it?

Getting a small portion of people to subsrcibe to your viewpoint does not validate a thought process. It does not make it tangible. There are countless examples throughout history where even large masses of people were driven to action by a minority, demagogue outlook, and wrongful outlooks at that...

No, I'm saying there may be class conflict because (1) there are people here on the forums and inworld who assert that class conflict exists, and they seem numerous enough in an anecdotal way to lend credence to a larger group that may not be willing to speak up - yet; (2) certain people have used demagogic tactics in an at least a partially successful way; (3) class conflict has existed in nearly every society ever created by human beings, and I see no reason to think it couldn't exist here; (4) we don't know what "class conflict" is in a virtual world, because conditions here are different; and (5) most often people who are dissatisfied don't know that "class conflict" is the cause until someone convinces them that it is, rightly or wrongly - which is why "states of the mind" are important here - that's how these things work.

I've had a fair number of discussions inworld and outside SL recently in which people mentioned dissatisfactions that might be related to the idea of class conflict. "A fair number" means nearly two dozen in the last couple of weeks, none of which I started. I'm not being an alarmist, I'm simply reacting by being curious and watching carefully, and this thread gave me an opportunity to comment.

Here's a significant point: It doesn't matter whether the idea of class conflict is valid or not. It exists if enough people believe it's valid. Your job, if you reject the idea, is convince people who may sympathize with the notion that whatever dissatisfactions they have do not relate to social or economic stratification that may exist in SL. The opposition will try/has tried to convince them that it does, and that they have the power to do something about it.

As for not acknowledging that class conflict exists in SL, or not having an opinion on it, I was speaking for myself. I don't believe I have enough information to come to a definitive opinion on whether the conditions for class conflict genuinely exists in SL, or whether it's an invention of a small group of people with an agenda - who have managed to influence a small number of other people. And I don't mind admitting that.

That doesn't mean that a person who hasn't made up her/his mind completely can't make worthwhile comments on both sides of the issue, however. These kinds of issues are not always binary, either.

this position just creates a different conflict.

the notion that there is no stratification is naive.

that there is conflict between the strata isn't a given.

Interesting theory Seth. I can only conclude that if there is class conflict because some people claim it exists when those who are being pointed at as the "other" class don't feel there's a conflict, that those making the claims are doing so because they want there to be conflict. Their motives are something I don't understand, and probably never will. It seems so completely unnecessary to me, especially in a place like SL where we all start out the same. Is the root of conflict here that people resent others for who they happened to be before they got here? If so, is that not the definition of intolerance?

Right, and we all do not like the same things so there for we have different things we like to do and talk about.

I reject your job assignment and I reject your claim that because, someone, anyone, claims that classes or injustice exist, that they do. Again, there are many historical occurrences that refute this.

If tomorrow, I claimed SL was biased against me, would you give me merit simply because I claim so?

Scapegoating is scapegoating, period.

I don't need anybody to convince me that something exists or not. I'm not just part of some sort of amorphous masses with no brains that heed a demogogue.

In fact, there aren't many people like that, particularly not among the people who play this game. Thinking of other players as the masses following a demogogue who "convinces" them of this and that is rather arrogant, I think.

It points to the fact that you are so threatened by Person X and so certain that Person X is wrong and dangerous, that you conclude anyone who happens to agree with Person X on anything must have been convinced by brainwashing.

That's just not so. Y'all can debate all you want the finer philosophical points of whether there may be something analogous to class conflict within this game, with many of you taking the position that there is none in this utopia. I know there is. My own little anecdotal experiences are enough to convince me.

Having said that, it's no big deal. Once y'all stop discounting what I say because I'm a basic member, that is. Then I can pretty much live with the rest of it.

coco

huh? i don't think your membership level determines how much people listen to you. until you mentioned it i didn't know. that you say wierd things like membership level determines how seriously you're taken... now that might contribute to your words being discounted.

in the forums, ideas carry the day.

the other thing that actually causes your words to be discounted is that you talk about contested ideas as if the ideas are accepted (or must be accepted). that almost always makes people tune you out.

and you're confrontational (which i'm not saying is a bad thing because i'm that way too), and that will make people tune out, also.

and sometime you come off being... hmm... whiny is the most polite thing i can come up with at the moment. that shuts people off, too.

i think you and jake are doing a good job getting at the content of prokofy's posts without the prokofian or blazian rhetoric that evokes such a strong negative response that skews the signal to noise ratio. i think the ideas are worth exploring. and have been explored in the past. and are worth revisiting now and again as things change, and things have changed.

Yes Chip, I believe that you are a little bit of a Utopian, and here's why: just as in RL, people in SL are not equals. I'm going to be quite possibly the only honest person here and come out and say it: I'm better than some people at some things. I'm also worse than some people at some things. By nature, this sort of thing makes it very difficult for all individuals in a population to be on the exact same footing.

The Constitution of the United States of America doesn't say that "All men are equal." It says that "All men are CREATED equal", which is something else entirely. What you do after the act of creation is yours to answer to. There are people out there that choose to piss their life away, and whom I wouldn't consider equals. Likewise, there are people that have reached amazing levels of achievement, and some of these I would aspire to be their equal in those areas of life.

Now as this applies to globalism/nationalism... Nationalism is a GOOD thing, because it encourages specialization, which boosts productivity. If harnessed in a healthy manner, the pride of a nation can get a lot of things done. "Globalism" is by and large a nebulous concept to most people, but in my opinion really needs to be retrained from its current socialistic connotation to instead mean "A healthy cooperation of nations, who are unequal in some ways but equal in others. At no time should one nation be brought DOWN the the level of another in any area, but instead should take advantage of its own strengths to create a synergistic combination with others."

Likewise in SL

i think this is worth repeating

OOOO Coco, you say weird things!

You don't talk about contested ideas right!

People tune you out!

You're confrontational!

And whiny!

You shut people off!

What I refer to is every time I bring up my ideas that people need more money to work with, or that they need actual jobs they can do in this game besides script, build and sell land, and that the entertainment/service industry needs game support, I always get back, "Look at what you get for having paid only $9.95 one time," as if that's relevant to anything.

coco

Of course people are different Morse... skilled in some areas and not in others, and each bringing different things to the table. What I mean by equal is that those things don't make someone subjectively "better" than someone else. Better at something, yes... more entitled, no.

I think what you get back is people telling you that you get what you pay for, either through work, creativity, money, or innovation.

i don't think it's been every time.

and to date, i don't think anyone has come up with a solution other'n "work at it" and "i know it's frustrating, but consider what you get for how little you pay. it's a good value."

it's not that they are discounting your issue, so much as there isn't much of a solution to offer other'n point you at what people have done to succeed in the past (mainly through hard work).

more money for little/no effort is through stipends or subsidies are unlikely to happen as that is in ll's control. and they are trying to control inflation so that 1000$l sells for around us$4. if they add more money to the economy that level will drop. railing at sl residents about ll's decision isn't going to get you much. and the pattern to date has been to cut and reduce subsidies.

and what gets supported by ll is again in ll's hands. so again, railing at sl residents about ll's decision isn't going to get you much.

trying to present solutions or suggestions for how things can be improved and getting support for them might get ll to consider them.

ll does listen to the sl residents. ll isn't always very fast about it, but they do listen, and they have implemented things that the residents thought of but ll didn't. some have worked, and some haven't. just as some of the ideas ll came up with alone have worked and some haven't.

I'm not railing at the residents, Stoneself.

I wish you would stop framing everything in such unflattering terms.

I know about them trying to control inflation. If you have read any of my many posts on that subject, you will see that is true.

You don't need to stand up for all those people who tried to discount my ideas on the basis that I am a basic member. They shouldn't do that, end of story.

And who are you, thinking you stand between me and LL? They DO listen to me. What makes you think they wouldn't? That's why I talk.

"trying to present solutions or suggestions for how things can be improved and getting support for them might get ll to consider them."

Like I don't?

You know, you're starting to make me mad.

You can frame me and my ideas in all these unflattering ways, using all these faulty premises.

You don't stand between LL and me, and you don't know who they listen to and who they don't. And I can tell you for a pure-D bloody fact, StoneSelf Karma, that they do listen to me.

And I never once ever, ever said they didn't. YOU said that. YOU said LL doesn't listen to me. Well, see YOU don't know any such thing.

coco

Well, Chip, you know, it's not like I don't KNOW THAT.

I am talking about proposed CHANGES IN THE GAME DESIGN.

I don't need any lectures from anyone here about work, creativity, money, or innovation.

Really, I don't. What makes you think I do? Do you think I am 12 years old or something?

If I bring up proposals for changes in the game, and give my reasons why. It is not ABOUT whether or not $9.95 once in a lifetime or once every month is or is not a good deal. OBVIOUSLY IT IS A GOOD DEAL.

I am talking about what I believe is good for the game. I'm not talking about you. I'm not talking about me. I'm talking about growing the game.

But - the simple truth is - some of you guys just don't like my ideas. Though sometimes you point to the inflation problem (which I have agreed with you about), you tend not to discuss the ideas themselves. Mmostly you fall back on these really inane, pointless, and self-righteous grandmotherly lectures about my own personal self, hard work, and Abe Lincoln doing his homework by firelight.

coco

hm....i don't think i stand between you and ll. but sometimes it seem you're talking to sl residents as if they are the ones with the power to make the changes you want. i think addressing the lindens in that regard might be more useful. though having sl resident support behind you tends to bolster your position before the lindens.sometimes you get emotional your points get lost.you do do the same thing to other people. but mostly i'm just being honest about what i see. it might help you understand why people get upset with you sometimes.take a breath and reread what i said. i didn't say the lindens aren't listening to you. read my comment above. (btw this is what i'd call railing on your part).

look... i think you're reasonable most of the time, and you manage to bring up good points for debate and discussion in more productive ways than others have. that's an important thing in a world of ideas. and it's good for sl.

don't get too mad at my critique.

i don't think you're a bad person. and i don't think ll doesn't listen to you - just that sometime it seems your energy should be directed at ll rather than the forum residents.

that's true to some extent. but in the forums people like to look at ideas and see how they bear weight.

another feature of forums is that the people who agree with you hardly ever respond to you.

so you get a biased responsed that seems much more oppositional and negative than it really is.

hmm... im/pm me if you want to continue this... looks like it's turning into a private conversation

Yes, it is turning into a conversation, and your last two posts have given me a better idea of where you are coming from.

So we'll leave off there and let the thread get back to what it was talking about.

coco

To be perfectly honest, Coco, I'm not sure what your ideas are. I know you think there should be more for casual and non-techincal people to do, and I know you feel there should be more support for entertainment. Those are problems, but what are the ideas for solutions?

If you agree that inflation is a problem then we can probably agree that simply giving people more money isn't going to do it. If people aren't willing to pay for entertainment (which I don't personally agree with) then what could LL do in terms of game design to change that? I'm not trying to lecture you about value or getting what you pay for. I'm trying to suggest that those changes have to come from us... from the community... and from our own innovations.

I've always thought your gameshow ideas sound like a lot of fun and worth doing and that people would have a lot of fun participating... fun that people would be willing to pay for, but probably not until you had it up and running and it becomes well known and gains a reputation. That takes time and investment... the same kind of thing that every successful venture in SL has had to put in before they started to see a return.

At one time LL proposed an incubator program where people would be able to take out loans of L$ in order to get off the ground but people shot it down because they said it would be unfair. The same kind of unfairness it seems you're against. I can't wrap my brain around claims of class warfare because everyone has to invest time, talent, and money in order to get off the ground. If people in the community are to make more fun things for casual players to do someone has to invest that time and money to create it. If not you, then who?

Chip,

"If not you, then who?" is probably the best summary I have ever seen of this issue. Truly brililant. I so often see a few people put forth these arguments about there needs to be more to do for the casual player, that one should not have to turn to GOM to enjoy SL, etc. and just make the rich players richer.I never see real, tangible solutions to their objections, because ultimately everything in SL is provided by us - the community of SL residents, not Linden Lab. They provide infrastructure and even a little form of welfare, but that's about it, and it becomes more hands off as the society grows (which is as it should be).

An important question for established people in SL is why are we not doing more to solve this problem, and what exactly can we do? How do we provide activities and jobs and purpose to SL, instead of just new hair, dance animations, clothes and skins? I found my purpose in some ways through Snapzilla, though it does not directly solve the problem at hand, it has made the totality of SL visible in an unprecedented way. Anshe Chung has taken a huge risk to create a better version of SL, and think what you will of her, I have to applaud her for that. She has given those who want more structure and predictability to their SL experience to have a place to call home. Prokofy has taken rentals in some interesting directions - he is not your typical rental landlord who plops a rental box and that is your entire interaction with him. Instead, he tries innovative ways to increase the value for his renters, and to build a business along the way Many many other people are doing things on smaller scales to improve some segment of SL for all of us. That is something that should be encouraged, not met with scorn.

If people want to turn SL into TSO and provide endless pizza and gnome making opportunities to give people some purpose, then put up or shut up, honestly. Invest your L$ and your time and your efforts into making SL what you want it to be, if not for you, then for others.

I wish. Rather, it seems that too often an INDIVIDUAL expressing they're ideas are not even allowed to put them out here as their own.


To this you respond:



This is an example of the failure to acknowledge the validity of an idea or opinion as belonging to the individual posting it. Everyone deserves that basic respect which is repeatedly denied those posting in opposition to the accepted majority. It sets a confrontational tone to a thread and that it continues to prevail, as many times as it has been objected to, I've come to believethis method to be a provocation with the intent to derail and undermine a discussion.