SL: Globalism or Nationalism?

Not only IS there a solution for the problem entertainers face, it's on the voting thing. It's called something like "return subsidies to events hosts." Go vote for it.

coco

And NO I don't think it should become more hands off as the game grows, nor do I think that is written in stone.

This is what I mean by you just can't hear suggestions and solutions even when you read them.

coco

Rather than posting piecemeal - I will just add on here.

Everything in SL was provided by us? What airs you do put on.

The ENTIRE STRUCTURE by which people do their scripting and building and land selling (the only real ways to make money in this game) was provided TO YOU by LL.

Why should they not provide other means of self-expression and making a living?

coco

You guys keep telling me I have offered no solutions - and you know why? BECAUSE YOU HAVEN'T BEEN LISTENING.

Your important question to the established people, Cristiano, is what you can do to solve this problem - well, I'm the first one that gave a SUGGESTION about that some THREE MONTHS AGO. So you are not exactly posing the question for the first time.

I suggested people do things like Peter's Gnome Factory. (Which no longer gives out money per gnome.) Like the money trees. As for what the Lindens might be able to implement for newer and/or non-building/scripting players, I haven't really considered that my job to think up - but I have strongly suggested that they do it.

AND I suggested one way for people to NOT get the idea that there is class division in this game would be to stop countering ideas about the game design with comments that distill down to, basically, "You're just a basic member, so stop your griping."

AND I suggested here and to the Lindens my ideas for providing more support to the events, by opening up (and categorizing) the events calendar, and by bringing back the stipends.

It is I N C R E D I B L E to me that so often - so many, many times - somebody points out a problem and so many people here just deny it, frame it in personal terms, and this and that and the other tactic for months on end, the FINALLY someone says, "Oh hey, guys, maybe we should do something about this, us established people here. What do you think?"

Kinda like that entire poll thread of Prok's got shut down then the entire discussion was taken over by someone else.

Well lookie. I'm established myself. I came INTO this game as FIC. Cause I'm no dunce, and after three months of it, I'm tired of being condescended to. You know?

I'm here, I'm one of you, get used to it.

And there are more like me coming.

I could be wrong in my ideas; I don't mind that. But I expect to DISCUSS these ideas, with none of this crap you've been handing to me for three months now. This is a fluid, dynamic game, and you don't get to decide about it any more than I do. We are all here in this GAME FORUM to give our opinions, and damned if mine aren't just as good as any of yours. We can discuss our ideas and opinions, and hope that LL will listen to us and make their own decisiion, but by damn you didn't write the LL book, the way you keep constantly and so patiently "explaining" it to me. Or telling me I don't have any solutions. Or telling me I'm a dupe of some other player. Or telling me I just don't understand the vision. Or telling me I never come up with solutions. Baloney, all of it.

coco

Grrrr I'm sorry. This has just been SOOO frustrating, the three months on this board for me.

coco

not particularly.

i've said over and over that prokofy brings up good points. but most of these points have been brought up before in various forms and with usually less controversy.

i've been reading the sl forums for more than a year. and some people have for longer. i've seen most of these points come by before.everyone deserves to be heard. they don't deserved to be told their ideas or good or even respetable. that you do by demonstrating/discussion why your ideas are worthwhile.

the same apples to the debators. they deserve to be heard, but when they say something questionable, there should be no surprise why they are questioned on it or the manner in which they say it.

everyone starts with a default level of respect, and they earn respect or lose respect as they continue speaking.

blaming people for disagreeing with you is silly. they disagree with you. if they happen to a loud or large group you will hear more disagreement - simply because more or louder people will speak up.you can believe that. but if you say something controvertial or even something a large number people don't agree with... you shouldn't be suprised at a large and loud response.

to me that's not a solution. that's looking for a handout.

mind you i think subsidies have a place and utility in the short-term... i don't think they are viable over the long-term.

Coco please don't take me wrong, but why should people want to spend their hard earned lindens, be they creators or whatever on things like the gnome factory, when they don't really get anything out of it besides a few dwell points? Dwell is not worth nearly as much as people seem to think I own a small club and have people in and out all day and the most dwell I have ever got is $40. I create a little a buy lindens if I can't live without something and I don't see why it's expected for SL to become another treadmill game like TSO or WoW just so people don't have to open their wallet a little $10 a month provides plenty of stipend, and a little bit of land and last I checked that was the cheapest MMO on the market besides TSO which is the same price. I like the fact that Sl is so open ended and I don't have to slave away for hours to afford stuff I want. $10 is the same price as one movie ticket and no other MMO out there lets people in free for life for $9.95 like SL. Why should the paying members of Sl who pay between $10-$1000s a month pay freeloaders?

sl isn't exactly a game. it's an platform/enviroment that people play games in among other things.

in the long term it looks like ll is going to try to be a 3d web. out in the web no one hands out money for free. ll appears to have been trying to move away from that.

ll's goal doesn't seem to be to make sl fun for the residents. ll's goal seems to be to let the resident to make sl fun. this is probably why ll has been reducing the subsidies over the last year.

Yes, Stoneself - and that is the point [your subsidies post above] on which we - by which I mean you and I, not you and some demogogue - disagree. I have gone into why I don't think this is practicable at length in other threads.

I understand this idea, and this vision, and your belief in it, and indeed, it may be preferable over what I think will have to come to pass instead.

But, you know, I may be right! In which case, if some change occurs in the game, and the Lindens put in an additional subsidy instead of taking more things away, or installs another fun, new dimension of game play more readily available to everybody, then everyone who is patiently explaining to me "the way things are," as if nothing could ever change, are gonna look kinda silly, aren't they.

Maeve - I agree. When I was new in the game, I thought that more such things could be done, but I agree with you as to why should other players provide this? And so far, there isn't much in the form of jobs. I was offered to host Slingo for tips! Well, now, if that isn't a lousy economy, I don't know what is!

So yes, I agree with you. Which is why I think the Lindens need to think about a way to keep the less techically-oriented or design-oriented players happy. Otherwise, I believe all we have is a batch of happy designers and landlords serving people who have no reason to be here and consequently will leave too soon. Even what those people enjoy doing - such as going to clubs - has taken a hit of late.

But this is all, I digress hideously beyond the confines of this thread, and have done so ever since I first started yelling at somebody in it. My apologies.

coco

Stoneself, The basic right I speak of is to have ones ideas acknowledged as your own. Conjuring up a demagogue and his followers, alts, wet nurses, and all the other images evoked in this forum strips the poster of a basic respect due to them. Argue, disagree that's the whole point here. But don't undermine people by not allowing that they can think for themselves.

start a new thread on this. it's a good point. as it relates to community is that the demographcis of the community might be shifting.

i think one of the problem is that sl isn't a game as most mmorgps are games but people sometime think sl should be. in most mmopgs there is a path for advancment like killing monsters, doing questions what have you. you get exp and money. sl doesn't have exp. you don't advance from having money.

you have to toil to get ahead in sl. and i don't think ll has set that expectation for the new residents. sl is fun for it's own merits of social interaction, creativity, and interesting things to do, but moving up in the world isn't what sl is about - not directly. a message that ll doesn't clearly state about sl.

if people come to sl expecting some way to get money ex nihilo... those options are very limited. again a message the ll doesn't clearly state about sl.

huh?

The demagogue comment serves to agitate and take away from the discussion, Stoneself.

I understood exactly what she meant, StoneSelf. That is one of the things that has been SOOOOO FRUSTRATING to me for the last three months.

And I do know what you are saying about it not being a leveling up game like AO or anything. And I LOVE that about it! That's why I'm here! (Among about a thousand other reasons.)

But, here's how I look at it. I have an online game. (Call it what you like, but it is listed all over the web as an online game, and I don't notice SL denying it.) I want to make a big PROFIT on this online game. I want it to appeal to a huge amount of people, in addition to being the neatest online game ever.

Now, to stop a minute here - someone said (I think it was you) that they really weren't ready for it to get that big, and I agreed. But I think the time is coming sooner than you may think, and that if that time is allowed to slip by, the window of opportunity will be lost.

OK, so here I am, thinking of the success of the game. Using my own experiences, and that of dozens of other people I've been talking to about this game for the past two years. (Remember, I couldn't get in because I didn't have cable, so I always asked other people what their experiences were.)

Then, when I got on the game myself, I saw the one huge glaring problem. No way to make money, no way to begin, NOTHING.

No wonder all those people were leaving saying there was nothing to do but sex! Here I am, now, remember, trying to make the game a huge success. It follows that what I want to do is NOT make it a frustrating experience for players. GIVE THEM SOMETHING TO DO.

That I think is more key than anything else to profits.

That is how I see it. Doesn't mean, though, that I don't love the same things about the game as you do. I'm not suggesting it turn into an AO - I wouldn't be PLAYING it then. I am saying it needs to be more user-friendly, and there need to be things to do and ways to make money in it that don't depend entirely on three specialized occupations.

coco

uh... there are ways. they are just a lot of work.oh hell. people have been saying ll has missed several opportunities already. on the other hand, if someone comes up with something better than sl... then the problems in sl will be moot.

i still think you need to get a dialog with ll going rather than telling people in the forums that they don't see what you're seeing. more bang for the buck.

sl has many problems that must be solved before it goes worldwide... as opposed to 150,000 "early adopters". the biggest gating factor are technical problems with scaling the size of the world up. retention doesn't seem to be ll's biggest problem or concern. though if sl gets enough people coming and finding nothing for the general populace to do... then ll will get a reputation for nothing to do but be geeky.

on the other hand, irc is just a chatroom, aim, etc. are just communication channels and as a big chat room with lotsa toys... sl's pretty amusing. and it's the best place to play dressup in the world.

you should chat with khamon fate. he's beat his head against things ll hasn't implemented and seems to be missing opportunities on.

i don't think ll should introduce more stipends or such. they but they should set people's expectations a little better. whatever ll wants to those expectations to be.

sl is NOT an easy place to make money/profit. but you can do it you work hard enough at it. but as leisure activity it's pretty cool.

What airs I put on? You seem to miss the entire concept of SL over and over again. THIS IS NOT TSO. Linden Lab created the tools for us to build the place ourselves, from the ground up. They put in the infrastructure that we are incapable of providing - but beyond that, they got out of the way - that is why there is so little Linden made content. Pointing out that SL is a fully user created world/environment is not putting on airs. It is stating the freaking obvious of why SL is different from TSO/Everquest/Warcraft/There/every other thing before it. You wonder why people think you don't listen, it is because you are so obtuse about this basic concept of SL.

Coco, did you expect to make a big profit in TSO? Did you make a big profit from your game shows in TSO? I fail to see how bringing back a 250L$ event incentive is going to make you a rich SLer. This is why it's imperative that people start migrating to paying for events. All the rich SLers got rich because other Slers pay them - not LL.

I have to ask why you are holding SL to such a high standard. You're basically demanding that they enable you to get rich. How would it go over if you walked into your city hall and demanded that the city help make you a profit?

There is plenty of stuff to do. You seem to be blinding yourself to it for the sake of your argument.

You keep saying that this is not about you, yet I see the word "I" frequently in your last several posts. I hear you saying that you are angry that the last batch of subsidy changes came right before you started, sort of taking it personally. You are saying your game shows can't work here. I think it may be more about you than you care to admit.

Have you tried to make your game shows work? (this is an honest question, because I really don't know)

In the end, you need to convince LL, not forum users. Whether or not 1% of the 10% of SLers that even read the forums agree with you is not critical to getting the game changed to the way you want it. Start a proposition, email Robin and/or Philip, ask questions at town halls, or in the hotline. Get a grass roots movement started in-world, more voices always help. I think you're putting way too much into this forums thing. The forums users are not the folks that will decide if your ideas have merit or not.

I hate seeing you all worked up like this becuse some forums users don't agree with you. you're really barking up the wrong tree.

I'm not obtuse about the concept! I get the concept! I don't think it's TSO! Maybe you all are obtuse about what I keep trying to get at but keep running into a complete brick wall about.

Let me try another angle. This is not a good analogy, but . . . Let's say SL is Disneyland. Except Disneyland consists of a big room with all the toys you could want - assuming you can put them together. Lots of people love this. You love it. I love it.

But whole bunches of people come into the same Disneyland not knowing what to do, or wanting and enjoying the room and the people in it and the things they have made, but not wanting to learn those things.

So they run around a while and admire, then leave.

I am saying add a room to Disneyland. Add a corner somewhere where there is something else they can do. After all, Disney put the big room with the toys in it - that's what I mean by they provided YOU with the prims, and the coding and all that.

So why not provide something for those that don't get into putting the toys together? Those who like the whole idea, basically, but just can't or don't want to cope with toy construction. Why isn't there something else they can do? Apparently I'm going to have to put some time/days/weeks into figuring some things that something might be.

It's not a fully user-created world in that when you came in, all the pieces were already in the room to put together the toys. All the prims, their shapes, that entire design - which, by the way, could have been different in many ways - and the coding language. All any of us do here is put those together in different ways. (And sell land, which is also doled out by the Lindens.)

Tools, tools tools! Yes. There need to be MORE tools, for different kinds of players.

Again, I say - it's not that I don't understand the vision. I just don't think it is enough.

coco

You really need to define what these "other things to do" are. As well as these "tools" your suggesting.

I get the basic premise of what you are saying, not that I agree that there is a problem in the first place, but you are offering undefined solutions.

hmm... i suspect you're just trying to run ahead of ll's timeline.

Don't you dare tell me I haven't been listening, that is dismissive. As far as my not exactly posing the question for the first time, do you think anything you have said has not been discussed ad infinutum before you? It is not who comes up with the questions or when, it is about finding and implementing solutions.



It goes much deeper than just providing some simple little money factory, and again, not a new concept at all, as you pointed out with the money trees. It is a big challenge collectively as a society in SL to provide the support for things beyond simple commerce to grow and flourish - arts, media, etc..



Yeah well as soon as people stop paying $9.95 once and then expect to never have to spend another dime, and to be given everything they want for nothing, then perhaps that will happen. Until then, those with basic accounts will get no sympathy from those who spend money on SL. Hell, you paid $9.95 a month for TSO, but SL is not worth it?



The severe gaming of the event system, combined with the fact that again, money just doesn't appear out of nowhere endlessly without an effect on the economy, is why event subsidies went away. I hope they don't make a comeback. There are plenty of other sources for funding for events within the community, which in turn keeps the economy healthy. Linden Lab will not do something detrimental to the economy of SL overall, no matter how popular the idea might be - the effect that it would have on the value of the L$, land, etc.. is hardly worth it.

When I spoke to you of your game show concept, one of the things you asked for was sponsorship of prize money - why not also sponsorship of paying the event host? I would certainly be willing to sponsor an interesting event - perhaps not every day of the week - but at least once a week. This is what I mean about their being solutions within the community - it does not have to involve handouts from LL.



You frame it in the personal all the time - your slant toward the TSO environment is obvious in all of your posts about these types of things. That is fine - we all have our own personal biases. At least acknowledge them instead of saying someone is framing something on personal terms.

Prokofy's thread/poll was about "what is the community?". This thread did not start out about any of the exact topics we are now discussing, so I'm not sure why you are making reference to it at all, except to perhaps say "oh look, Prokofy already talked about this". On one hand Margaret Mfume is scolding Stoneself for not giving you individual respect for your ideas by associating them with Prokofy, yet here you are doing the same. Prokofy, nor you, nor me, nor anyone else in this thread or on these boards now are the fist to raise any of this. We all are a part of it. What is with the need to stake ownership on an idea?



Congratulations to you, you did what everyone else did. We all start out with nothing and get to whatever point we get to through hard work, or not hard work, depending on your desires, drive, and interests. More like you? There you go separating yourself. You are not different than we are, the collective we - so people "like you" have been coming this whole time into SL,



I don't know which YOU you are rallying against in this part, but I have always been respectful to you, and listened to your ideas. I disagree with a lot of them, but I still consider them and respond to them, I think you seem to have the same blinders on you accuse others of having - you see SL as needing to be a specific way, and you won't be told anything different. That's fine, but a discussion goes both ways, as does mutual respect.

Well of course I use the word "I," Nolan. I'm speaking from my own views, so that's natural.

It's not a matter of wanting to get rich off game shows, or off clubs. It's just a matter of being able to DO them. I have zero interest in running a club. But I have been in that sector of games, and I know that they just took this huge hit. I've gone into detail in other threads why I don't think paying for entertainment is ever going to work. I could be wrong, of course - but given all the evidence at this point, that is the conclusion I continue to hold. And having been in that sort of game play myself, I have a huge amount of sympathy for them, for all hosts.

And Nolan, really, I've been patient for a long time now. I'm not worked up because people disagree with me. You all are VERY nice in the game, and I have no intention of meaning any of my views to be a personal thing. Nonetheless, I feel strongly about my views. And this constant attribution of thoughts I individual have to (a) being someone else's puppet (which started out as alt), (b) being thick as a brick and not getting the vision, or (c) being personally lazy or any number of other things - it is just frustrating.

This thread here, about whether or not there are class distinctions - of COURSE there are class distinctions. I said so, and offered as but one example, being constantly reminded that I'm a basic player.

I'm not here to translate Prok's ideas as a service for other people. When I say something, it is because *I* believe it. Even the fact that I have such trouble representing myself is in itself indicative of some kind of distinctions and warfare, maybe between everybody vs anybody who ever agrees with Prok about anything, or between old players who "get" the SL vision and those who might criticize it, or between those who profit from the status quo and those who wish to see it changed for the good of the game (not for personal profit), and I could go on and on.

There is no way, Jose, I can make the game shows work on my own. But another player has offered for us to work together on it, so yes, we will probably have fun making that work! If it does, it will benefit both of us, and I will have some fun. But I want it to be easier for entertainers, club owners and the like, to launch these efforts and have it be worth their while - which, given the tiny amounts of dwell, it currently is not. Then when people talk about removing dwell, I get exercised.

Yes, in the end it is Lindens I need to convince. But I don't really WANT to convince them. I want to put my ideas out to them, and have them make their own decisions, because it is (a) their game, and (b) their vision, and (c) they know more about it than I do, and what they want to do with their game is what counts.

That they HEAR me is all I need. And they DO hear me. What makes you think I haven't told them what I feel? I'm not the kind of person to bother people with letters or IM's or anything if it's not some sort of a crisis. But I DO go to meetings, and ask to be part of discussion groups.

The forums is part of that. The forums are here to discuss our ideas of the game. And I am one of the players. So come on, now, wouldn't you be kind of fed up at this point? I mean, no matter what I say, I just keep getting some version of the, sorry, you don't understand, or you're just a TSO person, or you're just mouthing what your demagogue says, or you're just a basic player, or you're just lazy, or anything else, except that what I say might actually be a valid point of view.

Cause I think it is. Not necessarily RIGHT - that remains to be seen, but definitely valid. And it's not because I'm expecting things handed to me personally on a platter. I'm talking about - have been talking all along about - game design and game direction.

I think it all boils down to you want everything pulled, and nothing added. So that ultimately we run the entire scene ourselves. I think I understand that to be more or less the Linden point of view, too. I'm busy disagreeing with that. Cause I think then it will just be a playground for designers, who make rl money from an ever-leaving population of other players. Cause we can't just sell to each other!

I don't even want to convince you. After all, I could be wrong! I just want to be able to have a reasonable discussion about game things here, without all this extraneous crappola about how I, personally, don't want to work hard, or whatever, or I just don't get it, or I'm just a stooge of Prok, or go back to TSO, or shut up you basic member, or whatever.

Still, I want to be friends with all of you! You are all most creative and talented, and I admire that. In addition to being a bunch of smart cookies! Please let me have my own ideas and address those ideas in their own right (such as a discussion of the Linden vision would involve), rather than dismissing me personally for a rotating variety of irrelevant reasons.

coco

coco

Saying that the prims and the scripting language being created by LL means the world is not user created is like saying that HTML and Javascript being the underlying technology of the web means that web pages are not user created. They are just putting the HTML tags together in different ways.

As far as needing more tools, what tools? Please elaborate - you reference this a lot and I am truly curious for what there needs to be in your vision of SL.

You are doubtless correct about that last part, Cristiano, and it does give me food for thought. All I can say in my defense is my hazing has been extreme and horrible, and I guess I figure it's time for that stage to be over.

But I HAVE been offering solutions. If it's been discussed ad infinitum by people before me, maybe then it is a PROBLEM.

I apologize for sounding dismissive toward you, Cristiano. I don't pay enough attention to who exactly says what. That "you" was meant to be everybody.

I do know it goes far beyond some money factory. I agree with your paragraph on that entirely. As I said to Mauve, after playing a while, that became obvious. I disagree, though, that this will ever pan out in the way people hope it will.

You're not getting it about the how much people spend doesn't have anything to do with what I'm talking about. Maybe a bit to do with it - in some ways - but what I am saying is give the people something to do. So that we get more people. People can pay $9.95 a month or $225 a month, but what they all have in common is wanting to have FUN. Does LL want that fun always to be from only scripting and coding and selling land? I am saying that once put in place - somehow - there are other things people can do. That will seem just as natural and needed as coding and scripting and selling land do now.

I never, ever said SL wasn't worth it. That has nothing to do with it! I have said until I'm blue in the face what a bargain that is, and how much it is worth it. (I've also pointed out that it helpfully keeps the numbers of subscribers high, which benefits all of us.) I have never ever once in my life said it wasn't worth it, and that has nothing to do with what I have been saying all this time, and so that's why I think bring up my being a basic member has no bearing on anything except to try to put me in my place.

As long as it's viewed from the prism that the whole thing is a matter of paying more to get more, then that's not very creative right there. If you REALLY feel so dismissive toward the ideas of a person who isn't paying much, then I would say that is very definitely class distinctions and class rivalry.

The severe gaming of the event system - that was pretty much before my time, and I have a hard time understanding it, but I understand that was a problem. I am not in the events group because I personally have any burning desire to ever run another event. Been there, done that. I happen to love conquering the building thing, and expect that to take up at least half my time in the game, whatever else I do. I am in the events group because I want the game to be better. I understand there was a problem with that, and I am working with Robin and the rest so that hopefully they will be able to come up with a system which isn't so easily gamed, but yet doesn't hobble the people who hold events, or cut down on the variety of fun things to do in the game, as the events calendar is one of the best things in the game, and it's too bad TSO didn't have one, and the more events, the merrier for the player looking for something to do; obviously you don't want to cut down on the fun of any game.

I know about the economy, I know about the gaming - I'm saying that this stuff isn't written in concrete; there is such a thing as balance; right now the entertainment and club people are suffering; and there is such a thing as worshiping the economy to the point where there is no fun left and nobody comes to your game.

-----

About the game show thing - which I was excited about - we were trying to do it on the sponsorship route, as Travis doesn't have that much money to devote to this event; he has other events on other nights.

"When I spoke to you of your game show concept, one of the things you asked for was sponsorship of prize money - why not also sponsorship of paying the event host? I would certainly be willing to sponsor an interesting event - perhaps not every day of the week - but at least once a week. This is what I mean about their being solutions within the community - it does not have to involve handouts from LL."

Well, see, we were working from that model, trying to get enough money together to afford the prizes (there are more winners in my games than in Payment Podium), and also make it worth my while to do, so the money was going to go to both things, in addition to Travis's initial stake in it. I am aware that we were finding solutions within the community. And I can do that! I can't ever do these things on my own, but yes, I can partner up with someone and make it work, and work with the community to make it work, and it will all be worth it. But basically, I think the stipends were good for most people, and I still do. And I really don't feel much like doing it now anyway.

Yes, I have a slant toward TSO environment - along with a slant toward Anarchy Online environment and There environment and A Tale in the Desert environment and everything else I ever stepped foot into, including SL, and yes, I know the difference between the different genres and whatnot - what I'm asking of people is that they understand I wasn't born yesterday, and I am talking about making SL better, NOT turning it into TSO, and telling me to go back to TSO gets old and crappy, as does thinking I'm trying to turn this into TSO.

As for saying people are framing things in personal terms, YOU try the shocking discovery that people think you aren't real for a month and dismiss you as someone's alt no matter how carefully you explain you aren't (while carefully not revealing real life name, location, etc.), then listen to how you're a troll wannabe, then how you're just the mouthpiece for another player, then how you don't understand anything about online games or their economies or raisons d'etre, and YOU get told to go back to TSO, and you get told that you just need to be as creative and work as hard as the person telling you that has, or that you pay only $9.95 and you're just greedy - all of those things essentially amounting to shut up and go away - and see if you don't consider it personal.

About the Prok thing, I was saying that he started something, a poll, people came in and said it was tainted because they knew what his individual views were, people argued about that, then it got into all about Prok personally, then it got closed, then Chip brings up the ideas again, saying he is sorry it got closed, and now let's all discuss it civilly. That was an example of one person bring up something and it doesn't count, and yet another brings it up and all of a sudden it does. Like me bringing up nothing for new or non-skilled players to do (as apparently have many before me), and all of a sudden after three months someone start to say, "well maybe we the establishment can do something." That was my analogy between the two events.

Now I'm gonna go off in a huff and build my little things and to heck with everything else. You know, screw it all.

coco

*bangs head on table*