SL: Globalism or Nationalism?

Thanks for bringing the tangent back around to the thread premise Seth To me, the idea that someone can build a church next to a cement factory next to an abstract sculpture next to a giant statue of king kong is no different than cultural diversity or diversity in lifestyle. Being intolerant of a neighbor's taste in building is no different than being intolerant of their race, religion, or sexual proclivity. That surrealistic jumble of styles is something that makes SL great. It's all self expression and creativity even if it doesn't suit my individual tastes. There are already plenty of ways for people to band together and form cohesive communities of both interest and style without the need for codes or laws that limit the ways other people can express themselves.

Once again I see you manage to interject your brand of BS Prok.. And again, attempt to make it all about you. Why must you persist in hijacking otherwise thoughtful and calm discussions here. You may have posted some valid points in the past, but the majority of your posts eventually become personal attacks and/or you whining about some unrelated incident where someone has done you wrong in some way.. Showing opposition to an idea or discussion is fine, everyone if free to have their own opinions, but you don't seem to be able to discuss your opposition without resorting to personal attacks or trying to make it seem as if the discussion is directly related to you in some way. Get a grip man, I know the world doesn't revolve around me, I think you really need to realize the same thing, ITS NOT ALWAYS ALL ABOUT YOU..

Anyway, I've said my bit. I _was_ enjoying this thread..

Fox

Stoneself, I think you're conflating "community" and "culture".

Culture is what gives you a sense of belonging, identity, loyalty, and common achievement with others. Force and compulsion do not make cultures.

Community is the means by which different cultures are welded together to form an ordered social environment in which profit, innovation, and a decent standard of living can be achieved - a pragmatic union of cultures. In RL, these cultures are welded together through common purposes, shared experiences, tolerance, etc. But they are also welded together by force of law and the compelling reason of common survival. Force and compulsion do make communities.

Here, in SL, they are not. Hence the problem: What can substitute for force and compulsion, the necessity of survival and the inability to "opt out" and "go home"?

I'd like to think that if we could somehow ramp up idealism, fun, fantastic experiences, shared accomplishment, etc., in SL, these things could replace force and compulsion, or law and order, in holding together a community. But I'm old enough and sad enough to doubt it would happen.



I understand your belief, Chip, and I'm very sympathetic to it.

It is, however, an environment in which cowboys, explorers, and entrepreneurs would thrive, and not necessarily suburbanites and commuters. Ethically, order exists so that widest possible selection of humanity can survive and prosper - which is good business for a corporation that runs a service commodity, btw.

Ultimately, however, I think LL's purpose matches your last statement: "banding together to form cohesive [self-regulating] communities" is exactly what is intended. So SL may come to resemble a loosely-constructed urban frontier - areas of regulation and order surrounded by vast regions of creative disorder.

kinda of chicken and the egg.

culture is what people know/have. community is the people. functions of community are actually functions of culture. community gives rise to culture. culture arises because people must/do interact when they are together.

hmm... i think i'd settle for we could ramp up idealism, fun, fantastic experiences, shared accomplishments, etc... to reduce the need for force and compulsion. and i think sl had done that.

Each of us has that chance. Some chances have been squandered. Other haven't been.

You can't combat it completely. Some see class warfare. Others see possibilities and hope. So help a few people every day, and it'll works out.

SL is different. Those who hate or wish to control others have far less power here. They can't permanently harm anyone.

Welcome to the mainland, Sl's community of diversity.

Yes, you can. Just go here: http://secondlife.com/land/islands.php.
Too much cash? Anshe, as well as a number of other players, will help you move to the Burbs for less. People are buying their view, indeed, and the future, maybe even the survival, of the diverse mainland remains to be seen.

I am reminded of the RL flight from the city to the suburbs. Subarbanites tend to identify themselves as being from the city even when they don't really live there. They have opinions about what's wrong and how to fix it. They wax nostalgic over downtown adventures back in the day and band together to save old buildings for their architectural value. But they don't want to live next door to it. Residents of the city proper grow to resent the input of those who chose to leave rather than deal with the problems. Even if they still work in city or provide jobs and content they are viewed as isolationists. Because they don't live there.

There is social striation in the community of this game, and plenty of it, and various classes as well. And sometimes there's class warfare.

coco

I just don't really see that Coco. There are certainly many different kinds of people with many different kinds of tastes and interests, but that doesn't make them different classes. I know you've been a little put off by the need to learn building and scripting and things in order to pursue your goals but I'm glad to hear that you're starting to do it and I hope that you're enjoying it. Some people pick up the skills easier because they've done similar things before outside of SL, but everyone has to learn to do things in SL. I know it took me a year before I felt I was established and accomplishing things that I was really proud of. Sometimes I think people look at those who are already successful and assume it was somehow easier for them but for the vast majority of people who might be considered established it wasn't that way at all. They struggled too. I don't understand how that translates into a class system. I think those who see it are projecting their own biases or insecurites.

It's my observation that a perceived threat to the quality of the community can bring individuals together in spite of their differing race, religion, or sexual proclivity.

Actually that's not what people say It's more like "you don't own the view unless you buy it." It's the attitude of people who think they have some right to define what their neighbors do that elicites that response. You absolutely can buy the view. I'm all for planned communites like Anshe is doing because it gives people who prefer a more structured environment a place to go. Personally, I much prefer the mainland and all it's surreal juxtapositions. I find it to be a richer environment. I'm glad there are places that can appeal to everyone.

As do I. I think I would feel more detached from the community if I lived on a private sim rather than the mainland. I remember Coco's commenting on the lack of fly-by's after her recent move. Anshe's sims are beautifully done and that she responded to desire for zoned communities. People I know who have moved there seem quite pleased. I just don't feel the game is quite the same for mainland and private sim dwellers and it can lead to a perception of isolationism as described in this thread.

I completely agree. I pay the full sim tier now but it's spread among three mainland sims. If I got rid of that and got an island I don't think I'd enjoy it as much. I'd get a lot less people stopping by or wandering through and a lot less spontaneous chat. Since I'm not the most social person that's how I meet new people. Different strokes for different folks

Yes, there are fewer fly-bys, and like Chip, I find it easier to make relationships with people who drop by my house.

But - it's still overall the better choice for me. For one reason, I make it a point to meet my neighbors. And considering most people move a lot more than I do, I end up meeting quite a few neat people that way!

And yes, it does seem isolating, I think mostly because you can't fly OFF them even. (Somebody correct me if I'm wrong about that.) I wish they had made islands you could fly to and from. I don't see why they didn't. After all, someone could just make the whole island private if they wanted to keep passers-by away.

So yes, it's quieter. But my, what a wonderful place to go home to.

coco

I think it's not that we divide ourselves, but we resort to our passion far too often.

And while beautiful like a candle or a campfire -- passion could easily consume us in a firestorm.

A large part of society today has shunned dialectic for the absolute.

We've made democracy a conflict to be won.

I am curious where you see "class warfare", Coco. Certainly, there is individual conflict at times. but what do you define as class warfare? I don't see different classes of people either - I see people with differing interests, but certainly not a class system.

Democracy was always a conflict to be won. Modern (post-Enlightenment) versions usually work a little better because separation of powers and checks and balances turn the inherent conflict into self-regulatory mechanisms.

Those folks who created modern democracies way back when understood that it ain't pretty and it ain't utopian. It's political warfare, brought into an arena from the battlefield, and carefully controlled.

Except in SL, where it's still on the battlefield.

Cristiano, see my comments in the thread started by Jake Reitveld, about "Stipdends."

coco

What Coco said.

I did a search on all threads started by Jake, I don't see the thread you are speaking of.

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Also, if it's just more of your claims that class warfare exists, don't bother. I didn't believe it months ago when Prokofy started his campaign to incite class warfare, and I don't see it now.
I'm not buying into the claims of a couple of demagogues.

Two points:

First, demagogues and class conflict go together. Demagogues use existing class conflict to further their aims and build a base of power among people who feel afflicted. Demagogues can't exist without a condition of class conflict. They can, however, ramp it up.

Second, if there are people (plural as in significant group) in SL who believe that there is class conflict occurring and that they are in some way being "oppressed", then by definition, class conflict exists. Class conflict is as much a state of the mind as a "physical" reality - and in any event, in SL, where there is no physical reality, class conflict would have to be thought of differently.

Which is not to say that the idea that class conflict exists in SL is reasonable or not, merely that it's possible it exists.

you know? i'm a little confused... if there is class warfare in sl (big if)... and if socialism is bad (another big if)... and if free market forces in sl are bad (abi)... then huh? what's the solution?

Perhaps I should have used a different word.

Note that I was using the word in the sense of inspiring passion and prejudice.
I have heard the word, as you indicated, used in lectures to define a "divide and conquer" mentality.

In the end, what I am saying, is that just because someone claims something exists, it doesn't mean it exists. I probably differ from you in that belief, but the world is big enough for more than one viewpoint, as long as those viewpoints are not used as tools to create division.

You're asking me to offer a solution to a problem that hasn't been proven to exist.

If I had to offer a solution, it would be for everyone to do what makes them happy, and not worry about what others do in SL, as long as they do not violate the rules. Fat chance.

If one is not happy with the rules, then they need to take that up with LL, start propositions, etc. What they shouldn't do is invent convenient boxes to stick people in, drag it onto the forums and whip people up into a frenzy born of suspicion, assumption, and apparently, mind reading as well. Labeling and finger pointing is the exact antithesis of what I understand LL wants SL to be.

We need to come to some sort of compromise and acknowledge that we have to allow for folks of socialist leanings, capitalistic leanings, and so on. Either that or just shut it down and call it a failure, and I for one, am not willing to do that.

It's trite I know, but "your world, your imagination" rings as true for me today as it did the day I first tried SL.

All true, though I AM thinking that the Lindens and I will switch places so they can enjoy a good foot massage and I can enjoy... well *SNAP*