The Bible is a book.

Nothing else ever has so far *shrug*

From page three or four

...Jesus. Does he really think that Christians are oppressed in this country?

Godwin uber alles!

Whenever people attack religion in these sorts of forums it always degenerates into bad scholarship, name calling and general idiocy.

I must throw myself upon the sword and end it now.

NAZI.

ooh, missed this one. My reply to that would be, if someone tells you that SantaClaus is real, and they believe he's real, and you keep explaining to them that he's fake, mention history of santa clauses from around the world, explain where the myth came from, give physics and science references to show that Santa is simply impossible, and possibly even give examples from personal experience, experiences of your friends, and at times even point out the conflicts in the personal experience of the person you are debating with...
and even if after all that the person STILL keeps claiming that there IS a santa claus, that you're just lying to or manipulating them, and says such things as "no amount of science can disprove his existance," etc etc etc...
Ater a while you just have to realize that that person is who they are, which is an idiot. Might not always be polite to point that out to them, but there it is.


Oh, and soon as I can buy some tier and land, I'm building a first public Concentration Camp of SL, just so all the whiny christians and trolls and other idiots who think the world is out to get them will have a place to hang out.

A lot of people really enjoy playing the martyr card with their little persecution complexes. I love when the Christian right types compare themselves to the Jews in Hitler's time. Being called names on the Internet does not really compare to mass slaughter. If so, then I've been killed many times and NEVER DIED.

Logically, then, I am immortal and therefore a deity. Hey, I always wanted my own religious cult. Persecuted American Christians - you worship me now. Your own logic compels you!

Not to mention the fact that in a number of other countries in the Middle East and Asia, Christianity is outlawed, Christians are regularly arrested and executed or tortured or what-have-you. Taking "In God We Trust" off of money really doesn't compare.

Now In Puck We Trust? There's an idea whose time has come.

The power of Puck compels you!!

Oh yes, it fucking well does.

*swoon*

HAHAHAAHAHA!

Sounds like I am gonna have to get out my Titler now.

*grins*

You just wait til I get home today, pet...

I was a resident of the "Free Thinkers" section of the old Compuserve Religion forum for a number of years. For the most part, we were an extremely civil and reasonable bunch -- and counted as some of our productive members people who were Christians, Wiccans, Jews, as well as non-theists. The only problems we ever had were when evangelists would trot into our section and start spewing Biblethink at us, as if it would magically show us the light. Needless to say, they were met with a level of scorn and ridicule that would make this thread look like a Disney movie script.

I think your take on this is right, Chip -- "equivocation and pandering" apparently would have satisfied his thirst for approval and we'd have all gotten along famously -- even if it meant misrepresenting my own beliefs and squeezing myself into his stereotype of non-believers. I just can't do that.

Last night before I went to bed I was doing some refresher reading on Christian movements in this country and was reading some quotes from the likes of Pat Robertson and Ralph Reed back when the Christian Coalition was going strong. Pat, of course, has been outed as a fruitloop by now. But Ralph has gone on to tie his star to the Bush administration and, now, to political lobbying for his own enrichment. Not exactly germaine to this topic unless you want to make a tie between the religious right and their attempts to disguise their real agenda:

"It's like guerrilla warfare. If you reveal your location, all it does is allow your opponent to improve his artillery bearings. It's better to move quietly, with stealth, under cover of night. You've got two choices: You can wear cammies and shimmy along on your belly, or you can put on a red coat and stand up for everyone to see. It comes down to whether you want to be the British army in the Revolutionary War or the Viet Cong. History tells us which tactic was more effective." --- Ralph Reed, Los Angeles Times, March 22, 1992

From 2004:



http://www.motherjones.com/news/outfront/2004/11/10_400.html

"Reed's value to corporate America has been enhanced by his close ties to the Bush administration and especially to Karl Rove, the president's chief political guru. Not long after Century Strategies started, Rove reportedly helped Reed land an Enron contract worth at least $300,000 to help build support for energy deregulation. Century Strategies did voter-mobilization work for the Bush campaign and the Republican National Committee in 2000; it has been retained again this year for similar projects. Reed has also been serving as Southeast regional coordinator for the Bush campaign, with responsibility for delivering Florida and four other Southern states. Bush campaign manager Ken Mehlman has called Reed "the guy who gets it done" in the South, especially in reaching out to evangelicals and other religious groups and advising the national campaign on strategy."

"Yet some of Reed's work, especially the anti-casino campaign he mounted with Abramoff and Scanlon, is causing increasing headaches for the 43-year-old consultant. Sources familiar with the tribal lobbying scandal say Reed raked in almost $4.1 million in 2001 and 2002 for that work, including $1.8 million from Scanlon's company as well as about $2.3 million from a think tank called the American International Center, which was set up by Scanlon in 2001 and was funded in part by the Coushattas and another of Abramoff and Scanlon's clients, the Mississippi Choctaws. "

One might say that Christianity has, indeed, enriched Mr. Reed

It has. Christianity is one heck of a cash-cow. I don't doubt that a lot of people are sincere about it - put in the public eye, I'd say that most of them are far more interested in making money than anything in the Bible. Being a crackpot rakes in the dough if you're crazy enough to play the game right.

--From A Midsummer Night's Dream (III, ii, 115)

I think when one starts judging an entire faith by the perceived actions of one or several people, one loses the ability to fairly judge the faith. At that point, anything that one says about the given faith is tainted with obvious bias.

Unless the point was to bash the person, and not all within the faith. Which is unlikely.

It's a good thing that I judge christianity based on the bible, history, and its impact on the social construct of modern civilization.

Tell us more. Are you judging everyone within the religion based on what some who claim to be Christian did in the past (history)?

Are you judging everyone within the religion based on what some societies did in the present or past (impact on the social construct of modern civilization)?

Are you judging everyone within the religion based on what Christ taught (The Bible)?

Thankfully, Kevn, I've known a large number of very sane and reasonable Xians. They don't resort to the same self-serving disingenuity I see around the internet, and I can actually agree with them that faith has both an emotional appeal and a value to human beings. It's when the minority become more vocal than their numbers warrant that we see the problems.

I don't judge a faith based on a few. I do, however, worry about the impact the actions and power of those few will have on MY rights to believe/not-believe as a member of this society. It's not as if Ralph Reed or Corey Burnell are only speaking for themselves and intend no impact on non-Christians. No, Burnell wants to use Christian activism to take over parts of South Carolina in order to create a "Bible Based Government":

I said I judge christianity, I did not state that I judge christians as a whole. There is a difference.

Which minority are you talking about. Atheists are the minority. Christians are the majority by a huge margin.

What is Christianity? What about it are you judging if not the people?

Don't start dancing again, please. Your own words were:

To which I was responding that I don't judge Xians as an entire group, only a small minority of those Xians who want to force their beliefs on everyone.

And you respond with a complete nonsequtur jump to whether Atheists are a minority or not. Yes, we are -- but I learned in junior high Civ classes that this country has "Majority rule with Minority rights". Show me where the radical fringe of Christianity has ANY respect for minority rights. Converting the law and our government into some kind of "Bible based" theocracy does not respect my rights as a non-believer. Preserving the secular nature of our Constitution, on the other hand, actually insures that both believers and non-believers will be able to continue practicing their faith (or non-faith) as they personally see fit.

Honestly, Kevn, sometimes you make such death defying argumentative leaps you should style yourself as the "Evel Kneivel of Christians"

Hate the sin (christianity) not the sinner (christians). It works both ways.

Solid gold, Nolan

That's my ration of laughs for the morning, though. I need to get serious now! ~cough~

Wasn't it you who just said "...... It's when the minority become more vocal than their numbers warrant that we see the problems."?

If atheists are the minority, aren't you telling them to sit down and shut up?

You are correct, the problems arise when minorities are more vocal than their numbers warrant.

But in America we want opposition to maintain a balance of opinions.