Thanks ACLU: War Memorial To Be Torn Down

http://cbn.com/spirituallife/onlinediscipleship/understandingislam/are_allah_and_god_the_same.asp

Hence, others (Muslims included) are equally adamant in affirming that the Allah of Islam is NOT the God of the Bible.

http://cbn.com/spirituallife/onlinediscipleship/understandingislam/what_is_islamic_jihad.asp


http://cbn.com/cbnnews/world/israel/051122a.asp



Allah =God= Distuction

Oh, so cuz I'm black I gotta be a crack addict? I suppose you'd be happier if they just burned the cross, huh?

-Kiamat Dusk

What many have said is that there is a reasonable compromise to the issue. You have stated that you would be satisfied if the cross was not on land owned by the city. If you are ok with that then perhaps you should discuss ways in which the land could be sold or transferred to an organization or federal department that could legally keep the cross on the land.

You really arent in favor of such a proposal. Instead you have advocated for its removal and in the process you have insulted Christians, the memorial and the integrity and intelligence of anyone who supports the cross remaining where it is.

Now, as far as John Adams is concerned...how long did it take you to do some google searches and find something that seems to support your point of view?

For the record, like many of his contemporaries, Adams was not a Christian. He was a Deist who did not believe in the divinity of Jesus. Books are cool.

For the record, like many of his contemporaries, Adams was not a Christian. He was a Deist who did not believe in the divinity of Jesus. Books are cool.

Ok ill give the people on this board till tommorow to show Michael how very misguided he is or Ill do it personally and he wont like it as much if I do it personally. Im too tired right now so im going to bed.

Oh its about pie now alright...yeah thanks alot for making me hungry with that picture right before I go to bed. Now Im offended, where is the ACLU?

Simple. A group that wants to keep the cross can bid for the land along with any other interested buyers. Trying to sell the land only to someone willing to keep the cross is another constitutional violation. The city could have sold it years ago but just can't seem to stop breaking the law instead.



I think its status as a national war memorial should be revoked and those responsible for attempting to skirt the law by slapping the names of war dead on their giant easter cross should apologize for being so incredibly crass.



I used an actual book on my shelf. Shocking huh? I'd be interested in seeing your sources.

Here's some more Adams quotes for you. I'm actually going to type them since they're coming from the book in my lap so pardon any typing blunders I might miss.

"Numberless have been the systems of iniquity.... The most refined, sublime, extensive, and astonishing constitution of policy that ever was conceived by the mind of man was framed by the Romish clergy for the aggrandizement of their own order.... They even pwersuaded mankind to believe, faithfully, and undoubtingly, that God Almighty had entrusted them with the keys of heaven, whose gates they might open and close at pleasure ... with authority to license all sorts of sins and crimes ... or withholding the rain of heaven and the beams of the sun; with the management of earthquakes, pestilence, and famine; say, with the mysterious, awful, incomprehensible power of creating out of bread and wine the flesh and blood of God himself. All these opinions they were enabled to spread and rivet among the people by reducing their minds to a state of sordid ignorance and staring timidity, and by infusing into them a religious horror of letters and knowledge. Thus was human nature chained fast for ages in a cruel, shameful, and deplorable servitude." - "A Dissertation on the Canon and the Federal Law." printed in the Boston Gazette, August 1765

"...The government of the United States is not, in any sense, founded on the Christian religion..." -treaty with Tripoli, passed unanimously by the U.S. Senate and signed by President Adams on June 10, 1797

"The question before the human race is, whether the God of nature shall govern the world by his own laws, or whether priests and kings shall rule it by ficticious miracles." - letter to Thomas Jefferson, July 16, 1814

"I do not like the reappearance of the Jesuits. If ever there was a body of men who merited damnation on earth and in Hell, it is this society of Loyola's. Nevertheless, we are compelled by our system of religious toleration to offer them an asylum." - letter to Thomas Jefferson, May 5, 1816

"The priesthood have, in all ancient nations, nearly monopolized learning.... And, even since the Reformation, when or where has existed a Protestant or dissenting sect who would tolerate a FREE INQUIRY? The blackest billingsgate, the most ungentlemanly insolence, the most yahooish brutality is patiently endured, countenanced, propagated, and applauded. But touch a solemn truth in collision with a dogma of a sect, though capable of the clearest proof, and you will soon find you have distrubed a nest, and the hornets will swarm about your legs and hands, and fly into your face and eyes." - letter to John Taylor, 1814

"God is an essence that we know nothing of ... Until this awful blasphemy [incarnation, aka Jesus] is got rid of, there never will be any liberal science in the world." --(Cardiff)

"When philosophic reason is clear and certain by intuition or necessary induction, no subsequent revelation supported by prophecies or miracles can supercede it." --(Noyes)

For the record, like many of his contemporaries, Adams was not a Christian. He was a Deist who did not believe in the divinity of Jesus. Books are cool.

Yes Mike Im a conservative remember we are watching everything. We know all your secrets, we have tic tacs so i resent the bad breath remark. It must be a personal attack to make up for lack of argument on your part. Anyway back to the paranoia. When you get to the bus stop there will be a man. Ask him for a glass of choclate milk and a mint toothpick...

Doing well on the surface is not "an all time high" unless you're talking about a bong hit. We don't get to keep more of our money, we get to be more in debt to Communist China. Thanks to tax cuts and Republicans spending like a bunch of drunk Paris Hiltons, we now owe the Chinese over 900 BILLION dollars. I noticed you missed the highest energy prices in history, the highest medical costs in history and, while we're on a roll, the rising poverty rate, the negative savings rate, the growing trade deficit, the highest dependance on foreign oil in history, and Iraq is becoming one of the longest wars in US history. So, yeah, if you're a Republican you might try to cling to the few statistics that look good. But even a Republican should be concerned about the direction this country is headed.

Ok ill give the people on this board till tommorow to show Michael how very misguided he is or Ill do it personally and he wont like it as much if I do it personally. Im too tired right now so im going to bed.

Personally? Like in person? And why won't I like it? Is it your breath?

Yes Mike Im a conservative remember we are watching everything. We know all your secrets, we have tic tacs so i resent the bad breath remark. It must be a personal attack to make up for lack of argument on your part. Anyway back to the paranoia. When you get to the bus stop there will be a man. Ask him for a glass of choclate milk and a mint toothpick...

You repeatedly confuse RELIGION with Judeo-Christian VALUES. There is no doubt that this nation is not based on the Christian RELIGION (institution). I never said that this nation was founded as a CHRISTIAN (institution)nation.

Perhaps you would agree that there is valuable philosophical thought inherent in Judeo-Christian values? Is this philosophy worthy of contemplation by enlightened people?

I have no disagreement with anything that you presented, but nothing you've presented is adequate argument against the prominence and prevelence of Judeo-Christian values and some of the ceremonies and traditions that are central to celebrating those values.

Judeo-Christian values are important and prominent is American society. In no way does such a statement conflict with the secular humanist ideas that you present.

Being new to sl I decided to browse the forums, and I felt I just had to reply to this babble of legalese and opinions.

The monument in question has neen dedicated to the fallen for what now, 50 some years. With all the millions of veterans of all religions in this nation, 1, has publicly had a problem with this memorial. Now I don't presume to know what's in his head, but once you have any group of people of even moderate size, it's pretty much a given that at least one will be an idiot or just have a axe to grind. That said, is it not the veterans oraganizations (which are made up of all religons) who are trying to save the monument?

I am a veteran myself, as is my father, and my son is currently serving. When I joined the VFW and the american legion, I must have missed the part that asked my religious preferance, yet these organizations are trying to save the monument. I applaud thier efforts, but I have no relgious beliefs myself.

And with the arguments about gravestones and Arlington cemetary, you can spout whatever you want about it being public land, this and that law etc etc, but the bottom line is that cemetary belongs to us, the veterans. And if you arn't one of us, your opinion doesn't mean anything. You want a voice about that sacred place, then serve your country, because it belongs to all those that served and NO one else.

I am bitter over the arguments here, WE the veterans should decide what symbols are or are not appropriate over our graves and memorials, and I don't recall any of you stating that anyone of you have even served a day.

I am bitter over the arguments here, WE the veterans should decide what symbols are or are not appropriate over our graves and memorials

If you arn't one of us, you can never understand, but places like Arlington and others like it, are more than just a place to take the kids on a sunday, they are sacred ground, and to imply that anyone would desicrate those grounds with a McDonalds emblem or any other that is not respectful shows your lack of knowledge.

Actaully no, as I said in my original post, theirs a idiot in every bunch. How many others have stepped up to support him. Has the american legion, the vfw, the various service organiztions closed ranks behind him to support his cause. I think not, in fact they are some of the ones trying to save the monument.

This is exactly like if some organization erected a giant statue of Xenu on public land and then donated it to the city (which had a Scientologist majority so they thought it was A-OK). During its dedication they proclaim that the statue is in honor of "Our lord and savior L. Ron Hubbard." Then someone points out that the giant statue is a violation of the constitution and a misuse of public funds, so rather than tear it down the Scientologists ring their giant statue of Xenu with plaques engraved with the names of war dead and start calling it a war memorial thinking that somehow erases the original intent of the statue. Would you be okay with that? Would you like your father's name on one of those plaques even though he wasn't a Scientologist and might actually have hated Scientology? Would you think he was being honored or used?