War Has Been Declared, choose your side.

Nah. The great thing about Western style democracy is that we all are pretty vocal with our opinions but we don't kill each other over them.

Everything that's presently going on everywhere in the world, war-wise, boils down to two things: war over religion and war over resources (which, in turn, is the end result of overpopulation and gross irresponsibility). It's necessary to understand that before you can even begin to intelligently dissect individual conflicts. Unfortunately, there's no way to give this subject adequate treatment without more or less writing a small book for everyone here to read.

The only thing I can really do is suggest reading up on Peak Oil (and learning the name M. King Hubbert and his significance, obviously). You can Google it and get a good primer that way. The Long Emergency by James Kunstler is also a good primer on Peak Oil alone, while Crossing the Rubicon covers damning 9/11 research as well in excrutiating, painstakingly documented detail.

As for religion, I personally recommend The End of Faith by Sam Harris, even though I disagree with his conclusions regarding torture and also his assumption that religion is the only real driving force behind the fighting (it certainly is not; this is every bit as much a war for disappearing resources). Despite these concerns, I believe his core message is sound.

My suggestion to fix it all? I don't have one. I don't believe it's fixable (except insofar as individuals and small groups of like-minded people can take measures to improve their own chances of survival). Much of what's happening now and what will happen over the next few years is inevitable. This is why I'm not an activist but rather simply a sad-eyed observer.

I don't think there has ever truly been a war over religion only. That's just a common excuse.

Money and power, sometimes a preemptive strike to preserve the same. These are the usual motivations imo.

I just want to know when we are going to make a Kurdistan. Is there anything wrong with just carving their nation out? I think if we can do it for Jewish people, and its not religiously based; we should be able to do the same courtesy for muslims.

Why? Because Western nation-building and design efforts have aaaaaalways been so successful? And I know we can throw Iraq into that pot, it would be SO much more successful if it wasn't for a bunch of fundamentalist jerkoffs. It would just be another Iraq situation--one that would piss off an ally of ours, Turkey. (Not to mention Iran I believe too.) Listen to these assholes:

"Osama bin Laden had called on the U.S. military to release the body of Jordanian Zarqawi to his family in a Web site audio tape on Friday and said Jordan's King Abdullah should allow him to be buried in his home town, Zarqa."

Fuck you, there's your answer Osama.
Why the HELL should we listen to this SOB? OBL "called on the US military"...what is he, an idiot? They do everything they can to deface dead "enemies" when the get the chance.
Erm, okay unrelated rant finished. But crap like this just shows how unreasonable these fundamentalists are.

Besides, the Muslim "world community" has yet to prove itself, unlike the Jews who were law-abiding, non-blowing-things-up, normal people. Also of note was the fact that they had just a small genocide attempted on them for a bit. Israel was probably a mistake... but it's an OLD mistake and it's too late to change that now. Instead of repeating the same screw ups over and over we should be learning from our past mistakes. Um, Europe (minus UK), this means you too.

The majority of Muslims are also law abiding and peaceful--but (being forced to use an overused phrase here) "where is the Muslim outrage" at the few that are hijacking their religion and brainwashing their kids? Can anyone name a truely GOOD, iconic Muslim leader? (i.e. one that doesn't advocate the blowings up of X individuals, who preaches nothing but peace) It's hard isn't it?

I agree. The foot soldiers may be in it for God or Country or whatever, but the leaders typically are in it for power and resources... Probably right back to the cave.

YOUR money? OUR money is on Israel silly wabbit! Surely you'll root for the side we FUND.

http://www.stop-us-military-aid-to-israel.net/rachel_in_memory.jpg

http://www.stop-us-military-aid-to-israel.net/

Ding ding ding! We have a winner!

My money's on Israel too.

Israel's doing the right thing here. They shouldn't have forced those fellow Israelis out of their homes in Gaza to begin with.

Well, you read my mind in my sarcasm. The problem with carving out nations is that it pisses everyone off in the region, whether the region is Christian, Jewish, or Muslim. People are going to pick up arms when those silly lines on maps get redrawn without their approval. It is an old mistake, but the least we can do is stop funding the continued crimes against humanity done by the government we set up by mistake. Israel has alot of blood on their hands as well. Why are we putting money in their pockets to get more of it? They are all grown up now. They should be able to kick ass on their own.

omg I am really really sad for you guys if you believe what your television says ...

I think you perhaps should remember that in the first place it's US (and partly the UNO) that booted palestinians out of THEIR country to put israeli there ... and don't come to me saying it was israeli's country ... thri god threw them away and ordered them to never come back until they had expiated their idolatry sin.

Then remember also that supporting israeli it is supporting putting 1.3 million people in a ghetto as big as an affrican village surrounded by soldiers of one of the 10 strongest armies in the world ready to shoot them if they breathe a bit too hard. Yes isqraelis are US allies ... doesn't mean they are right.

and no palestinians aren't saints and yes they are potential terrorists and have done awfull and disgusting things but they also just want to have a country to live in ... and not just a city full of poor people.

War is stupid, sad and all you want ... but you should remember that there's almost never only one good and one evil side unlike your president says.

Virtually every nation in the Middle East except Iran and Egypt was "carved out" by the West. Iraq, Kuwait and Syria were part of the Ottoman Empire until WW1. Palestine was a British colony.

In 1916, the British secretly signed the Sykes-Pikot Agreement with France which called for the division of the Ottoman Empire into a patchwork of states that would be ruled by the British and French. That agreement was exposed and abrogated, but it demonstrates how much the old colonial powers played with the map and gave us the artificial nations that exist in the Middle East today.


Since when is it a crime against humanity to defend yourself? Ask yourself whether any of Israel's incursions into Lebanon, Jordan or the Gaza strip would have ever taken place had they not first been subject to guerilla raids, artillery bombardment and terrorism? The answer is "no".


Your history needs some very serious rework, Damian. The Palestinian resolution of 1947 was issued by the U.N., not by the United States. Get a few facts together next time.

Knowing history is hawt!

You had me in agreement for awhile, until it seems like you placed all blame for the fighting there on Israel. I think MORE blame belongs on the Palestinians, because all I see going on is attacks on Israel which are responded to with 10x the force from the first attack. Perhaps this is a mistake, because it makes Israel look really bad too. But I find it hard to blame them... after decades of terrorist attacks and threats, I would get pretty heavy-handed when dealing out the punishment too. They've tried the negotiations route, but each time, going from memory, it seems that some Hamas-like terror group ruins things.

Basically it comes down to this: If the Palestinians stop attacking Israel, will Israel be launching attacks, firing missiles, and bulldozing houses? Probably not. Why would they?

On the other hand, if the Israelis stop their anti-terror operations, will the Palestinians stop their attacks? Hell no! They are brainwashed by terrorist-funded propaganda, and schools where kids are taught shit like the US and Israel are evil countries who worship the devil.

Here's an idea for them: go get a job, work hard, raise a family, pay the taxes of whatever country they're living in, obey the local laws, and STOP BLOWING SHIT UP... w00t, guess what? Crisis over. What the hell difference does it make where you're doing it, or who your neighbor is? Only a retard would care, therefore everyone living in that area is retarded. And of course the same thing goes for the extremist Jewish settlers, too. Their priorities are all screwed up.

And it's not like the Israelis don't let them practice their religion--they bend over backwards to let them do so...but do/would the Muslims allow the same courtesy to the Jews? HAHAHA!

Yes! Because the French media, run by absolutely selfless Frenchmen, is so much more accurate ...

And at this point, who gives a shit that Israel was "artificial"? Lots of countries can be called artificial. All this gives terrorists a right to blow up Jews? hahaha...

Bad things Israel is doing:
http://www.amnestyusa.org/regions/middleeast/document.do?id=ENGMDE150542006
http://takeaction.amnestyusa.org/siteapps/advocacy/index.aspx?c=goJTI0OvElH&b=953489&template=x.ascx&action=5607
http://www.amnestyusa.org/regions/middleeast/document.do?id=ENGMDE150492006
many more on same site

Bad things Palestine is doing:
http://www.amnestyusa.org/news/document.do?id=ENGMDE150552006
http://www.amnestyusa.org/regions/middleeast/document.do?id=ENGMDE150322006
many more on the same site

More bad things done to children by both sides:
http://www.amnestyusa.org/children/stories_israelot.html

I agree that both sides are violating human rights, however there is a distinct difference between Palestine and Israel when it comes to the US. Israel actually agreed to the fourth Geneva Convention on Human Rights, but it is a known violator of this convention, and Israel gets continual funding to better arm itself from the U.S.. I'm all for Israel protecting themselves, but I don't understand why the U.S. would have to pick sides between two groups of people acting atrociously. I think it would be better to back neither side. If they want to blow each other up, then let Israel find their own money to fund the violence. It makes sense for countries in the middle east that don't care about human rights to give money to Palestine, but does it make sense for a country that is supposed to care about human rights to give money to people who continually fail at conducting themselves in a civilized manner.

When innocent people die, it makes no difference if the bomb was strapped on to a madman, or dropped from a jet bombing known civilian areas. Either way, something wrong is being done.

As for would Israel give up. I think at this point it is a matter of who is on top. I think if the Palestinians were militarily superior and had full control over what they wanted, then Israelis would be fighting to the death to gain back the advantage. Its easy to sit back and say lets end the game when things are mostly in your favor.

OH MY FRACKIN GAWD!! YOU don't like Israel?

What a shocking surprise. I am totally dumbfounded, flabergasted and fozzlewhipped.


And here all this time I would have thought Mr. Aljazeera.net a staunch supporter of lil ol'Israel.

I guess maybe Israel needs to start supporting terrorist organizations and committing beheadings and showing them on state run television...and then maybe you would like them

Briana Dawson

You know, Amnesty International would do themselves a huge favor if they condemned the actions of terrorists as vehemently as they've pounded on the Israel drum for the last 20 years.

No mention is made in your link of the fact that the Israeli attacks on Hamas leadership have been as a direct response to the killing of Israeli soldiers and the kidnapping of Gilad Shalit. It was not Israeli aggression so much as a response to Hamas aggression. There is a difference.


A noble sentiment no one can argue with, however the calculus of terrorism is this: If you yield or fail to respond firmly, you only invite additional attacks and additional death and suffering.

That is one school of thought. I personally believe the firm response gives cause for more attacks. Every terrorist attack can be backed with somethig Israel has done wrong to Palestine starting with the creation of Israel in the first place. I know that if I had a cause I was willing to die for, and the person I was fighting bombed and killed people like me; I would be more determined to fight to the death for my cause. I know that there are some Palastinians that want everything or nothing, but I can't see how any peace can come out of leveling civilians every time a Palestinian does something wrong. More terrorist attacks keep happening. I don't see the firm response, even though its warranted, getting Israel any closer to peace.

Both sides are at fault for perpetuating the vicious cycle. Israel has allies that are supposed to be pushing the world to a higher standard of conduct. Palestine is already not supported by western nations, so they can be as savage as they want. If Israel is getting support from nations trying to gain more civility in the world, Israel should conduct itself under a much stricter, more humane standards than their enemies. They don't have any threat of loosing support, so they never will.

So the creation of Israel was wrong? I think we begin to see your position a little more clearly.



A little clearer now. You minimize horrific terrorist attacks as "does something wrong." But you are a tad more specific in what you say Israel does in response to "does something wrong." You call it leveling civilians. Yet you don't mention the civilians who die "every time a Palestinian does something wrong."



Israel does conduct itself under much stricter, more humane standards. Israel doesn't conduct attacks whose aim is to kill Palestinian civilians. Israel has tried and convicted Israelis who have engaged in terrorist attacks against Palestinians. The reverse of which hasn't happened in PA controlled areas. The PA has executed Palestinians who were accused of "collaborating" with Israel, but they have never tried and jailed a Palestinian who conducted a terrorist attack against Israel.

I'm sick of people who want to hold Israel to the standard of conduct that applies to Western Europe and America in peacetime, but who hold the Palestinian Authority to a level that is well below barbarism. It's as if these people think that Arabs can't be held to civilized standards. Anyone who has even a small understanding of history knows that at one time the Arab world was the civilized world. So either allow the Israelis to descend into barbarity or quit making excuses for the Palestinians when they do so.

I mentioned in an earlier post that I recognize that Palestine did uncivilized things as well. The reason I think Israel should be held to the stand of America and Western Europe is because they originally agreed themselves to be held by the same standard through the Geneva Convention. I do not believe Palestine ever agreed to recognize such standards. I also think it should be held to the same standard since it gets monetary support from America and Western Europe. I don't see anything wrong with Israel sinking down to the level of their enemy if they do it without the support of America and Western Europe. Israel represents America and Western Europe to the middle east, because we have created it, funded it, and supported it through its entire existance. If they do things we don't approve of, then the support should stop. I don't see carpet shelling of civilian areas as holding to a higher standard. Am I wrong. Were there specific military targets they were aiming at when they seem to hit civilian targets. From what I've read, it sounds as if they simply attack an area where attacks have come from without specific investigations into who in that area carried out the attack. I also think fair trials of prisoners is called for. I would like to see the U.S. hold itself to this standard as well, which I'm beginning to think is getting thrown to the wayside with Guantanamo Bay. I don't consider a military trial without a jury of peers for a non-combatant detained in a non-military situation as a fair trial.

It would be nice if Palestine raised their standard as well, but I am less concerned with their standard when they aren't a nation that receives our financial support. You can't expect the enemy to change when you yourself haven't changed. The standard has to start somewhere if it means anything at all. Allowing the standards to slack just because the enemy doesn't recognize it just shows that the standards you set are meaningless in the first place. Palestine should also be left unsuported when it comes to anything military, because it fails to conduct itself in manner fit for supporting. I do personally think the creation of Israel was a horrible mistake, and I do think both sides of the conflict are acting like barbarians (sorry if I understate the atrocities of the Palestinians, Israel's actions are more of a concern to me), but I do not think Israel deserves any continued support.

Been thinking about this a long time.. .

And in my opnion - Yo AL can write miles of texts and they - al involved give a dam shit on what you write (The dont care what states to or FN (UN) say) they continue as the always have done and will do... Walls .. 80 mil.. Thats from Stockholm to Malmö 1/3 of my country.,,, Killing, Bombing,, kidnapping, harreseing.. treths., raping...and yes.. from al parts involved,,

Put a montly pyment to one or al of theeese organisations and you wil have a chance to help... the ”man” at the streets...

Arguing at this forum wil not help at al. (Sorry)

http://www.amnesty.org/

http://www.internationalpen.org.uk/

http://www.icrc.org/

/Tina

Problem: the attacks are not a response to Israel's actions--they are attacks. Even if Hamas, or whoever, claims otherwise. In other words, even if Israel doesn't respond, do you really believe that the bombings and attacks on Israel will stop? They will NOT stop, until the propaganda, brainwashing, and fundamentalism goes away. Israel may come down too hard sometimes, but at this point things are so screwed up that one option can't be any worse than the next.

Also, the problem with the links you provided--as typical within this topic--appears to be that the Israeli's are causing unintentional harm to innocents, while the Palestinians are causing INTENTIONAL harm to innocents. Intentions and whether or not it was an accident don't really matter much when someone is killed, but when looking at who is causing the problem, intentions do matter. Personally if I'm going to take a side I'd rather it be the side that at least tries their best not to blow up the 12 year old, rather than the ones who don't care at all, you know?

The Palestinian Authority is completely dependent on foreign aid. The majority of which comes from the Europe Union and the United States. They do receive our financial support. Now are you going to call for them to behave in a civilized fashion? Or are you going to find yet another excuse for terrorism?

There has been a large shifting of populations in the Middle East since the creation of Israel. Hundreds of thousands of Jews and Arabs have been expelled from their countries into Israel and out of Israel. If the state of Israel were to be destroyed today, where would the Jews go? Would the Arabs take them back? To live as second class citizens?