War Has Been Declared, choose your side.

How can you seriously not have respect at least in some way for Israel. They are hated by virtually everyone in the Middle East and they still kick ass, US help or not. You also got to respect a country that literally doesnt care what anyone else thinks of them. Thats why they can do what they have to protect their own interest and not worry about what others may think about them protecting their citizens.

The scenario was predictable:

Hamas kidnaps an Israeli Solider(s), Israel demands that Hamas release them. The Hamas Government cant do anything about it so Israel lines troops on the border with Gaza and gives them a time limit to return the soldier(s). Hamas doesnt respond, time limit expires, and Israel gets to rip the Gaza Strip apart at their leisure searching for the hostages. Oh and then Hamas goes and complains to the UN.

Another comment I would like to make is the one huge advantage that the Israeli's got by pulling out of the Gaza Strip. Now that area is populated almost if not entirely by Palestinans. So if something like what happened in this situation occurs, Israel can attack Gaza at their leisure and not worry about killing their own citizens.

Oh and if anyone tries to run to the defense of the Palestinans: They voted for their government, if Hamas supports Terrorism then so do the people who vote for them and I really have a hard time feeling sorry for people who support Terrorist.

Neville Chamberlain thought that. Luckily for the British, they had Churchill for a backup when Hitler told the Brits to get bent.

War can be a useful tool to accomplish a means, but it should only be done with the support of the people. If you are going to invade a country, you may want to have at least 40% support of the native population also. The places we didn't have that (Vietnam and Iraq), we didn't, and are not, doing so well.

Israel has their own peoples support, so what they do is not questioned (and is often supported) by their own populace. That's all Israel needs to worry about. To be honest, they have the facilities to be relatively self sufficient for the most part and they have the US to help them when they don't. Anyone who think the US would not support the Israelis, only needs to look at the raid the IAF made on the Iraqis, who the US were backing during the Iraq/Iran war. Although the US protested, they didn't do anything to stop them and didn't sanction them at all afterwards. Same with this. As long as Israel doesn't do anything grossly against our interests, we will support them. Simple as that. That is why Israel can do what they do.

Their War for Independence was in 1947-48.

Two observations:

One, the chief reason the Israelis have kicked serious Arab butt for the last 60 years is because they are not divided by tribal allegiances. They have unified command and the fervor of a people with their backs to the sea. The Arabs probably only trust each other slightly more than they trust the Israelis.

Two, the reason the Israelis do overreact when they retaliate is because they understand the Arab mindset. Strength is respected, not weakness. If you know that lobbing a few artillery shells into Israel is going to bring massive airstrikes on your head, you're going to think twice. In this vein, we are extremely lucky Israel didn't break their leash when Saddam hit them with SCUDs in '91. They were on alert and had the plans in hand to do the job themselves and it would not have been pretty.

Don't overlook the fact that Israel probably owes its very existence to subsidization by the United States. Much of their military equipment now is American made. Even their Kfir tank is based on an old American design, modified to carry troops. So when you're talking about US forces opposing Israeli troops, first you have to unplug the spare parts pipeline to Tel Aviv.

It's politics. It's Clausewitz.

It's "War is simply a continuation of the political intercourse, with the addition of other means."

It's "War is the exercise of force for the attainment of a political object, unrestrained by any law save that of expediency."

It's "War is an act of force to compel our enemy to do our will... like politics."

No where in the world except among Israelis and their Arab neighbors do two peoples understand these concepts so well. No where in the world do two peoples utilize "war" as a tool of "politics" in such a controlled and Clausewitzian manner.

It's a deadly dance. And to dance that way, for so long, there has to be an element of coordination and cooperation. Choose sides? Impossible. Three can't tango.

I think you are mixing up the government and the people. Even when the governemnt is elected lots of the people could be pacifists who didn't vote for them and they think being nice will solve things. Israel has lots of misguided citizens who always support the idea of giving the peace process another chance. Fortunately Israel has had a short period of compulsory military training for young adults for awhile so that makes citizens more realistic about their situation.

I'd agree with that!! LOL!

I've been waiting to see what they're planning for Iran now that the rabid raccoon they've elected as president is huffing and puffing about their nuclear plans. Israel already bombed one nuclear reactor that Iran was building, a few years ago. I can't wait to see what happens to whatever they try to build this time.

That was Iraq's reactor they bombed, but it's the same priciple.

Wasnt it Israel that was responsible for the Gas rationing of the 70s in the USA?

Well folks, the only way to stop a war is everyone agrees on everything the same, thinks the same, acts the same, etc. Which will never ever ever happen. It's human nature. Wars have been going on & people dying from it as a result since the dawn of man. We're just getting better at racking up a body count.

There is another way to stop a war:

Nuke 'em till they glow. (If your a Marine, you nuke the ashes again just to be safe!)

why you gotta pick on us Marine's for being thorough?

Yeah, it's so different than say, Europe, Africa and Asia. Millennia of peace in those places. LOL

Well, hell just froze over. Looks like I agree with Billybob! Hamas has stated time and time again their goal is to destroy the state of Israel. They have supported and conducted terrorist attacks inside Israel as well as in the territories. So the stated goal of the political party that now controls the Palestinian authority is the destruction of Israel. Now, that is disgusting.

How do you figure? From Wikipedia:



You could say the embargo was a reaction to the US/Israel relationship, but Israel was not involved in that decision making. The responsibility for that choice rests on the shoulders of OPEC.

he was referring to Billy Grace not me although I do believe something close to that.

Israel actually supports its troops unlike Donald Rumsfeld and 50% of the US public with their military. I hope they kick the shit out of the Hamas and anybody that helps them.

Seeing how the modern state of Israel was founded by murderous ethnic cleansers who would quite happily gun down entire villages of the indiginous population in order to clear the way for their settlers (and I'm talking pre-Balfour Agreement here), the nation of Israel has some serious bad karma to address. Their problem, not mine. They've made their bed, so they can lie down in it. I'm sick of all this 'Poor Little Israel' crap... their behaviour towards the Palestinians is little different from the behaviour they recieved from the Nazis between 1933 - 1945. Seems that they learned nothing from that experience other than how to be brutish muderous thugs.

Ethnic cleansers really? Because I thought Hamas was the one who said that they were bent on the destruction of Israel. Hmm funny ive never heard of the Jews bringing people in to concentration camps or anything. Ok sure the Jews in Israel now days are a little paranoid but concidering all they have been through they kinda have a right to be there.

Im not saying poor little Israel. Quite the opposite. Consider the option of a sleeping bear. Hamas is like the little kid who goes out and continously pokes a sleeping bear with a stick only to runaway in suprise when the bear finally losses its patients and attacks the boy who has been annoying it for so long.

In other words im suprised Israel didnt do something like this earlier. I mean the have won three wars against their Arab neighbors since the 1950's. The point is Israel has proven its not going anywhere and its not going to put up with crap from its neighbors or the UN and I just have to say "Bravo" to them. You know we westerners could learn a thing or two from them.

They do address bad karma. That's why I love them.

Thanks for contributing absolutely nothing pee brain. What exactly do you not agree with and why? Everything I said was absolutley true.

I would love to live on a planet where the Middle East problem has a clear, easy. and self-evident solution also. Would you please send me instructions on where that planet is?

Ok what you need to do is go right past Venus but if you have hit Mars you've gone to far. You cant miss it, its a blue orb with one moon.

Considering WW2, I'd have thought that we wouldn't see behaviour coming from Israel that, as a people, they supposedly find to be anathema.

Your position is that terrorism is okay in Israel because a century or so ago some Jews allegedly committed crimes?

And you compare Israel's occupation of territory formerly claimed by Egypt and Jordan to the rounding up and shipping off of 6 million people to extermination camps by the Nazis. Where are the death camps? Do Arab Israelis have to wear identifying marks on their clothes? Are Arab Israelis banned from commerce? Have they been stripped of their Israeli citizenship? No, not at all. In fact there are Arab members of the Knesset. Arab is co-official with Hebrew. The relationship between Israel and it's Arab citizens and the Arabs in the occupied territories is nothing at all like the relationship between the Nazis and the Jews. Saying so diminishes the crimes the Nazis committed. It diminishes the sacrifice tens of thousands of Americans made to stop the Nazis. And it makes you look like a raving anti-semite.

I really wish people wouldn't call pro-Palestine people anti-semetic. Palestinians are a Semetic people, too.