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A Question for Christians

Reitsuki Kojima
Witchhunter
Join date: 27 Jan 2004
Posts: 5,328
07-14-2006 17:15
From: Selador Cellardoor
Verse 24 makes (to me) a very plain statement that if you are rich when you die, you can forget about heaven.


But if you're speaking of absolute, direct statements, Jesus says not a dozen lines earlier that the only thing a person needs to do to be saved is follow the commandments.
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I am myself indifferent honest; but yet I could accuse me of such things that it were better my mother had not borne me: I am very proud, revengeful, ambitious, with more offenses at my beck than I have thoughts to put them in, imagination to give them shape, or time to act them in. What should such fellows as I do crawling between earth and heaven? We are arrant knaves, all; believe none of us.
Chip Midnight
ate my baby!
Join date: 1 May 2003
Posts: 10,231
07-14-2006 18:52
From: Selador Cellardoor
Oh, well, then. That includes me. So if you find me so distasteful, I suggest you bugger off and don't speak to me again.


Knowing many people in the DS scene both in SL and in RL I personally have yet to meet any I didn't think were good people. I personally have no complaints about it. Just not my cuppa :)

Back to your original question, one thing I've never understood about the quote myself (even though I'm satisfied with the allegorical interpretation) is that it would be very easy for a rich man to pay someone to make him a very large needle, so in effect it would be extremely easy for a rich man to get into heaven, provided there was sufficient giant needle making technology available to invest in. :p
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Reitsuki Kojima
Witchhunter
Join date: 27 Jan 2004
Posts: 5,328
07-14-2006 18:56
From: Chip Midnight
Knowing many people in the DS scene both in SL and in RL I personally have yet to meet any I didn't think were good people. I personally have no complaints about it. Just not my cuppa :)


Ah, he was after me with that. I kinda put my foot in my mouth with a careless way of saying something.

From: Chip Midnight
Back to your original question, one thing I've never understood about the quote myself (even though I'm satisfied with the allegorical interpretation) is that it would be very easy for a rich man to pay someone to make him a very large needle, so in effect it would be extremely easy for a rich man to get into heaven, provided there was sufficient giant needle making technology available to invest in. :p


Ya know the saying, "The road to hell is paved with good intentions"? I think there's a similar saying about loopholes. :p
_____________________
I am myself indifferent honest; but yet I could accuse me of such things that it were better my mother had not borne me: I am very proud, revengeful, ambitious, with more offenses at my beck than I have thoughts to put them in, imagination to give them shape, or time to act them in. What should such fellows as I do crawling between earth and heaven? We are arrant knaves, all; believe none of us.
Chip Midnight
ate my baby!
Join date: 1 May 2003
Posts: 10,231
07-14-2006 18:57
From: Reitsuki Kojima
Ah, he was after me with that. I kinda put my foot in my mouth with a careless way of saying something.


I know how that is :D
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Michael Seraph
Second Life Resident
Join date: 9 Nov 2004
Posts: 849
07-14-2006 21:39
From: Kevn Klein
Why do you suggest to be Christian one must hate homosexuals? Jesus never even mentions it. Or are you poking fun at the tiny groups who say God hates fags? Jus' wondrin'



Tiny groups? You mean the Roman Catholic Church, all the Orthodox Churches and most of the Protestant Churches? That's tiny? Of course you probably buy the nonsense that it is possible to "hate the sin, but not the sinner." It isn't. Humans don't think like that. If some jerk rapes and murders your sister you can't just separate his actions from him.

So, I'll tell you right now, people who advocate second class status for homosexuals, people who advocate the criminalization of homosexual conduct, and people who "hate the sin, but not the sinner" deep down really hate homosexuals despite whatever smoke they try to blow up their own asses to keep from feeling guilty for hating another human being for something so absurd as who they fall in love with.
Michael Seraph
Second Life Resident
Join date: 9 Nov 2004
Posts: 849
07-14-2006 21:51
From: Ananda Sandgrain
The passage in Mark is much the same:

--------
17 As he was setting out on a journey, a man ran up, knelt down before him, and asked him, "Good teacher, what must I do to inherit eternal life?"
18 Jesus answered him, "Why do you call me good? No one is good but God alone.
19 You know the commandments: 'You shall not kill; you shall not commit adultery; you shall not steal; you shall not bear false witness; you shall not defraud; honor your father and your mother.'"
20 He replied and said to him, "Teacher, all of these I have observed from my youth."
21 Jesus, looking at him, loved him and said to him, "You are lacking in one thing. Go, sell what you have, and give to (the) poor and you will have treasure in heaven; then come, follow me."
22 At that statement his face fell, and he went away sad, for he had many possessions.
23 4 Jesus looked around and said to his disciples, "How hard it is for those who have wealth to enter the kingdom of God!"
24 The disciples were amazed at his words. So Jesus again said to them in reply, "Children, how hard it is to enter the kingdom of God!
25 It is easier for a camel to pass through (the) eye of (a) needle than for one who is rich to enter the kingdom of God."
26 They were exceedingly astonished and said among themselves, "Then who can be saved?"
27 Jesus looked at them and said, "For human beings it is impossible, but not for God. All things are possible for God."
28 Peter began to say to him, "We have given up everything and followed you."
29 Jesus said, "Amen, I say to you, there is no one who has given up house or brothers or sisters or mother or father or children or lands for my sake and for the sake of the gospel
30 who will not receive a hundred times more now in this present age: houses and brothers and sisters and mothers and children and lands, with persecutions, and eternal life in the age to come.
31 But many that are first will be last, and (the) last will be first."
(NAB)
-------


Wow. In this very quote Jesus says that he's not God. "18 Jesus answered him, "Why do you call me good? No one is good but God alone." And then he says you actually have to follow the commandments and give your wealth to the poor in order to be saved. Nothing at all about believing in Jesus as the Son of God. Nothing at all about Jesus having to die for anybody's sins. Just follow the commandments and give up your riches. Pretty much turns everything modern Christianity teaches upside down. Jesus even admits that God can save people without a "blood sacrifice!" ""For human beings it is impossible, but not for God. All things are possible for God."
Almarea Lumiere
Registered User
Join date: 6 May 2004
Posts: 258
07-14-2006 22:43
From: Michael Seraph
If some jerk rapes and murders your sister you can't just separate his actions from him.
You probably have too narrow a notion of sin. Sin is just doing something that you know is wrong. When I eat two pieces of cake before dinner or decide to post to SL boards instead of finishing a report that has been sitting on my desk for too long, that's a sin.

Now, can't you think well of me without believing that those were good things to do? I sure can. Everybody sins; and I wish most of them well.

Sure, any time someone commits murder it clouds my judgment; but that's _my_ sin. As I said, we are all sinners.

Note that "love" is a translation of Greek "agape" which means something much more specific: not physical attraction; not even (necessarily) liking; simply the acknowlegement of the worth and inherent value of the _sacred_ part of each person; and the willingness to act for their benefit.

So, "hate the sin, love the sinner", when you hear it from Christians, means "I think that you know that the act you are performing is wrong, and I'd like to help you get back in line with your principles."

Unfortunately, because we are sinners, we cannot always tell what is right for us and what is wrong.

But the solution _cannot_ be to let someone else tell you what is a sin, that's even less likely to work (after all, they can't always tell what is right and what is wrong, either and _you_ can't always tell whether you are listening to the right person or not). So when someone else tells you homosexuality is a sin, I would recommend just letting the words roll off of you: they may just be speaking their own truth; or just as likely they're confused.

There is a deeper answer which I may go into separately, which comes down to the fact that it is probably not possible to properly perceive evil outside of yourself until you have no evil whatsoever inside you.

So how can you know for sure what is right and what is wrong? Luckily, Jesus gave us the answer: "by their fruits ye shall know them". This means: things that are right work out; things that are wrong don't.

So this is all about having a life that works out. We all want that; and none of us are completely there. It's part of what Jesus offers.

And just to come completely clean, I'm not really a Christian. Not in the sense that I believe the story about the tomb being empty when they rolled the rock away. Why can't the Bible be mythical _and_ true at the same time?

--Allie
Almarea Lumiere
Registered User
Join date: 6 May 2004
Posts: 258
07-14-2006 22:51
From: Michael Seraph
Wow. In this very quote Jesus says that he's not God. "18 Jesus answered him, "Why do you call me good? No one is good but God alone." And then he says you actually have to follow the commandments and give your wealth to the poor in order to be saved. Nothing at all about believing in Jesus as the Son of God. Nothing at all about Jesus having to die for anybody's sins. Just follow the commandments and give up your riches. Pretty much turns everything modern Christianity teaches upside down. Jesus even admits that God can save people without a "blood sacrifice!" ""For human beings it is impossible, but not for God. All things are possible for God."
Was this meant to be sarcastic? (Honestly asking.) I think you've gotten a glimpse of the real Jesus (as opposed to the secular-humanist-strawman/sound-bite-cliche version).
Aodhan McDunnough
Gearhead
Join date: 29 Mar 2006
Posts: 1,518
07-15-2006 07:36
Just got home from a 4-day trip. Answering original post only.

We have to frame the quote in the context in which it was said. Aramaic which is the native language of Jesus Christ completely lacks finer comparative modifiers, hence everything he said will, by today's standards, appear abrupt.

Case in point is where he says "love God, hate your parents" which if corrected for cultural context would only mean "love God more than your parents"

Given the abruptness of the language there is no way to achieve the fine level of "political correctness" or language precision we are so accustomed to today.

If we were to restate Christ's eye-of-needle message today it would read "Rich people will have great difficulty entering Heaven because of the temptations that having a lot of money brings."

That's all there is to it.
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Selador Cellardoor
Registered User
Join date: 16 Nov 2003
Posts: 3,082
07-15-2006 09:25
From: Reitsuki Kojima
I've never found anyone who hasn't commited genocide so distasteful I wouldn't talk with them. I find people facinating.That said, I'm guilty of something I occasionaly yell at Chip for - there are certain subjects I'm very passionate about, and tend to be quite blunt about my opinions on them.

I find sexual predators distasteful. Period. Without exception. I've seen more people who are (at least phsycologicaly) predatory within the slavery-d/s cultures than within any other group. It's still not a large number, but it's larger. And by "seen" I mean "had brushes with", being involved with the d/s scene myself.

I don't hold all people involved with the scene distasteful though, if you got that impression I'm sorry - to an extent I mis-spoke. I find the people who are *predators* distasteful, and those that knowingly harbor them without doing anything about it. What I should have said is, "I find predators who hide behind similar lifestyles distasteful, not just goreans". Or something to that effect.


Ok - sorry, my connection has been down, so I haven't been on for a while. Yes, I did get that impression from your words, and I am very glad to be mistaken. I think all of us hate sexual predators. Yes, you can find them in both Gor, BDSM and the world of vanilla sexuality. I have noticed no greater number in the first two groups. Indeed, it could be argued that sexual predators would not get very far in the BDSM society, because it tends to be somewhat close knit, and people depend on their reputations.

Also because when someone has charge of someone else, they have to be very sensitive to their moods and body language to a much greater extent than in a 'vanilla' relationship. There is a saying that dominants have to be mind-readers, and there is more than an element of truth to that. Even in a Master/slave relationship, the Master does not want to have a slave who is broken-spirited or a doormat. The whole idea of a BDSM relationship, whatever its flavour, is that each partner gives the other one what they need, and that both of them benefit. Even if some of them can appear extreme, it is what they both need. Anyway, if you have been involved with the scene you would know this anyway.

How come I am now talking about BDSM on a religious thread? :eek:
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Reitsuki Kojima
Witchhunter
Join date: 27 Jan 2004
Posts: 5,328
07-15-2006 09:32
From: Selador Cellardoor
How come I am now talking about BDSM on a religious thread? :eek:


Proof of evolution. :p
_____________________
I am myself indifferent honest; but yet I could accuse me of such things that it were better my mother had not borne me: I am very proud, revengeful, ambitious, with more offenses at my beck than I have thoughts to put them in, imagination to give them shape, or time to act them in. What should such fellows as I do crawling between earth and heaven? We are arrant knaves, all; believe none of us.
Selador Cellardoor
Registered User
Join date: 16 Nov 2003
Posts: 3,082
07-15-2006 09:35
From: Aodhan McDunnough
If we were to restate Christ's eye-of-needle message today it would read "Rich people will have great difficulty entering Heaven because of the temptations that having a lot of money brings." That's all there is to it.


But surely, if you believe this, another possible translation would be: Rich people will be able to get into heaven easily, because when you die you lose all worldly possessions.

You can make it mean what you want it to mean. If Aramaic is so unable to sustain communication, then I have to ask what value we can we place on anything that the Bible says.

I'm afraid I still see it as unambiguous a statement as 'Thou shalt not kill'. I can certainly see why people should wish to translate it differently, though.
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Ulrika Zugzwang
Magnanimous in Victory
Join date: 10 Jun 2004
Posts: 6,382
07-15-2006 10:06
From: Selador Cellardoor
You can make it mean what you want it to mean. If Aramaic is so unable to sustain communication, then I have to ask what value we can we place on anything that the Bible says.

I'm afraid I still see it as unambiguous a statement as 'Thou shalt not kill'. I can certainly see why people should wish to translate it differently, though.
What you're talking about here is the creative interpretation of writing to serve a group's particular interests. It's a selfish but very real human vice.

For instance, when I was in the now right-wing Neufreistadt, Gwyneth Llewelyn, actually purposely misinterpreted the Universal Declaration of Human rights, a document written to apply to all people, to only apply to citizens of their sim, effectively allowing her to persecute foreigners illegally without a trial. There were also laws that I myself had written crystal clear, that folks would nonetheless purposely (and successfully) misinterpret to break the law. This despite the fact that I was right there to tell them that's not what it meant. I lived the madness. :)

So, to summarize a group will always grossly misinterpret writing to suit their own needs, sometimes with such zeal that they'll tell the author herself what she actually meant. :D

~Ulrika~
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LordJason Kiesler
imperfection inventor.
Join date: 30 May 2004
Posts: 215
07-15-2006 12:09
From: Selador Cellardoor
Firstly, the camel/cord distinction is in fact very important. A camel is just a large object that won't go through the eye of a needle. A cord is a different matter, though. As a cord it will not go through, but if you pull it apart until there is just one thread left, it will go through. This seems to me to be a metaphorical description of what the rich man has to do to get into heaven. He has to lose everything. Everything.

Your example actually changes the meaning of Jesus' words. You are saying that when he said 'rich man' he didn't actually mean 'rich man'. I'm sorry, that seems to me to be a way of distorting a statement that you find uncomfortable.

I'm sorry, reading through this thread I somehow made the mistake that you thought the meaning of the word was not important.
But ok it is, (well to me I get the same message either way, but we should not change God's word).
But no I am not changing what he said, Yes 'rich man' means 'rich man'. I am not distorting the statement. Yes it will be (impossible) for a rich man to get into heaven. And I am not at all uncomfortable with that statement.
But with God, NOTHING is impossible.
Here is what I am trying to say in a different language.
NOTE: please dont draw some crazy conclusions from this or go start some "Heaven Uses Java" occult. This is simply my attempt at illustrating "why" a rich man can not get into heaven.

CODE

import java.util.Random;
class GetToheaven {
// try changing this one to true and see what happens.
public static boolean Is_Saved = false;
// index for the other gods value.
public static int OTHER_GODS = 0;
// index for the relationship with Jesus value.
// was called "PERSONAL_RELATIONSHIP_WITH_JESUS_AND_FORGIVEN"
// but shortend for the forums;
public static int JESUS = 1;
// MAIN
public static void main(String[] args) {
if(human_heaven_access(Effects_of_riches_on_lifespan()))
System.out.println("Will get into heaven");
else
System.out.println("Will not get into heaven");
}
// Returns the heaven access result without the
// Relationship with Jesus value
private static boolean human_heaven_access_without_god(boolean[] id){
// There is a LOT of other things that should go here, that could
//return a false. But Im just trying to make a point regarding "riches".
// And I dont want to spend the rest of my life writing this.
return !(id[OTHER_GODS]); // true if OTHER_GODS is false.
}
// Returns the heaven access result with the Jesus factor.
private static boolean human_heaven_access(boolean[] id){
boolean wo_god = human_heaven_access_without_god(id);
System.out.println("Without god = " + wo_god);
System.out.println("Relationship with Jesus = " + id[JESUS]);
return (wo_god || id[JESUS]);
}
// The "Life and riches" simulator.
private static boolean[] Effects_of_riches_on_lifespan(){
System.out.println("Running life simulator");
Random generator = new Random();
int lifespan = generator.nextInt(100); // pick a random number for lifespan
System.out.println("lifespan will be " + lifespan);
int amount_of_other_gods = 0;
int riches = 0; // start riches at zero.
//The boolean "True/False" array for this person.
//missing a lot of other commandments, but again, were focusing on only
//the "riches" issue.
boolean[] rtn = {
// Other gods, make the "assumption" that this
false, // commandment has not already been disobeyed.
// relationship with Jesus.
Is_Saved // set this at the top of the program.
};
// ================ YEAR ================
for(int year = 0; year < lifespan; year++){ // start looping through life.
System.out.println("Year = " + year + ": Riches = " + riches);
// ================ DAY =================
for(int day = 0; day < 365; day++){
// Add more riches and see if we have any other gods today.
//Used to make the chance of getting a smaller ammount
//greater than the chance of getting a larger ammount.
int[] Riches_Ammounts =
{1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,5,5,5 ,10,10,100};
// Just a simple "add to riches every year" thingy, this guy is
//fairly lucky, not ever going into debt.
int riches_to_add = generator.nextInt(
Riches_Ammounts[generator.nextInt(Riches_Ammounts.length)]
);
riches += riches_to_add;
//Again, the chances of someone having other gods
//"Treating a worldly item as if it is more important than God"
//is greatly affected by the ammount of "potential gods" they have.
if(riches_to_add > 0 && generator.nextInt(riches_to_add) != 0){
amount_of_other_gods ++;
rtn[OTHER_GODS] = true;
}
}
// ================ DAY END ==============
}
// ================ YEAR END =============
System.out.println("Amount of other God's = " + amount_of_other_gods);
return rtn;
}
}


I don't know why the PHP tags here are causing some spaces to show up in that code, but I cant get rid of them.
Anyway as you can hopefully see, a rich man wont get into heaven, as "at least one" but probably more of the commandments will be broken more easily the more you have.
Go ahead and replace the word 'riches' with the word 'cord_strands' or something if you want.

Here is another thing you need to take into consideration for context, Jesus said this while he was on earth (ie before he died on the cross so we can get into heaven even if we have sinned/broken commandments).

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Jauani Wu
pancake rabbit
Join date: 7 Apr 2003
Posts: 3,835
07-15-2006 16:43
From: Reitsuki Kojima
You have more confidence in the willpower of emotionaly damaged people than I do, I'm afraid. :(


don't forget, emotionally damaged people are the best consumers in sl.
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Mecha
Jauani Wu
hero of justice
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