Abortion: Putting A Face On The Issue

No, my argument is that we should do both. Make it a crime and work to prevent it. Just like illegal drugs. We should make the manufacture, sale, and use of crack illegal AND we should teach people the dangers of this drug to help PREVENT its use and we should have well funded, effective treatment for people who are addicted.

Going back to abortion:
It should be a crime to seek, perform, and obtain an abortion. But we should ALSO have effective, public sex education and we should make it easy for women to carry out their pregnancy and to divest themselves of the baby if they choose not to keep it after birth.
For example: It should be illegal to fire a woman because she is pregnant. It should be easy for a woman to continue her education while pregnant and after having the child. etc.

I have never advocated for simply making abortion illegal and then nothing else. I am a strong supporter of proper sexual education and adoption/foster care and child care.

-Kiamat Dusk

Free birth control is widely available at your local free clinic. But if you want to be able to walk into CVS and pick up free condoms or whatever, I'm with you. However, try to get the manufacturers to keep making a product that they then have to give away for free.

I do not, however, believe that abortion should be used as a contraceptive.

-Kiamat Dusk

Nitpick: Murder is illegal by definition; a murder is an illegal act of killing.

Carry on.

IF you live in an area with a local free clinic. Or a Planned Parenthood. They're getting rarer and rarer, especially in rural and highly religious areas of the country.

I see no reason that in the interest of national health, our government cannot provide free access to birth control, require insurance companies to cover birth control pills, fund more research into safe and effective birth control for both sexes, and most importantly, stop this insane trend of only supporting abstinence education in our schools. No one's telling Trojan to start giving thier product away for free - there's no reason our government cannot provide for such things. $1 for a condom vs. $500 for a Medicaid-covered abortion, vs. tens of thousands of dollars for a poor woman to carry the child to term, give birth, and raise it - much of it coming from the state welfare system.

If you are "a strong supporter of proper sexual education and adoption/foster care and child care", which one would assume includes pregnancy prevention tools, why are you attacking the problem ass-backwards? Efforts should be applied towards every preventative and educational measure first in order to bring the unwanted pregnancy rate down as low as possible - THEN, if you so desire, make the argument that we need to make a safe and hygenic abortion illegal. Otherwise, you leave them little choice.

First off.. Pro-lifers usually have religion to back up their statements. Yet the US has this funny thing called the seperation of church and state. The world morals and ethics are thrown around with this topic a bit too freely. Especially the nutter who says anyone for legal and safe abortions are immoral. Sets of morals is a personal thing which is partly based on a person's religious values and what they feel to be true.

You all are a bunch of hypocrates. No to murder of a fetus but yes to state murders of "convicted" murders. The justice system is not perfect, I won't guess how many innocent people have been wrongly convicted, but executing one of them is murder. You judge me because I'm pro-CHOICE and then all for for military actions and executions.

Pro-lifers are consistantly more republican, so my next bit doesnt include the ones who aren't.

Ok.. rebulicans are against big government, unless it has to do with one's sexual choices and the decision to have babies. Please stay out of my bedroom. Thank you very much.


Back to the MORALS thing. Ok.. uborn children = important. But as soon as they are born you wash your hands of them.

Here's a vision of the future if we carry on the way we are leading...

Nice moral girl learns in school that abstience is the only way. So, she stays that way. She goes to college and has a really bright future coming. Ends up at some party with a spiked drink. Ooo the date rape drug. She's so out of it that she doesn't know who gave it to her, nor all the names of the men who gangbanged her.

Not only now is she "tainted" and not pure and will not find a "proper" husband (in a lot of religious views) but she is frighted what her parents and friends will think if she explains what happens. She she keeps quiet about it.

Had the morning after pill been available at her campus clinic, she could have gone in and had a chat from someone who could help. But instead, she finds herself pregnant from this night of terror. Oh no! What is she going to do now? Abortion is illegal.

She tells her parents, who flip out and cut all funding and ties from her. Now she's no longer a pregnant college student, but a a pregnant drop out with no where to go.

Gets a crap job by the only people who would hire a pregant woman with no experience. Can't afford health care. No prenatal pills or shots or regular check ups for this girl.

Has the baby in the hospital (which puts her so far into debt). Baby has AIDS. Sick baby, can't afford health insurance what is she to do? Religious people say give it up for adoption. But she can't this baby is a part of her.

She stays at her crap job. Working minium wage that cannot support her child because republicans have kept the minium wage at below the poverty line. Welfare is also gone thanks to the republican congress.

Child starts at the underfunded inner city school. (thanks again to the no child left behind act).

What a life!!

I'm sorry, but suporting that is far more immoral then allowing someone to have an abortion. Until you stop with the senseless greed about social care I will not listen to your moral judgements. Come up with a better idea then "family planning" (which was our word you stole tyvm) to where people aren't in need of abortions. Abstinence doesn't cut it. it is like you are setting people up so that you can judge them later.

Once again, you're assuming that I am attacking this issue from one angle. You're wrong.
I completely agree with your sentiments on free birth control as I said in my previous post. I think we need both together rather than one now and one later. It takes both to correct the root problem.

And here's one that none of the pro-abortion faction ever seems to touch on-personal responsibility. You know that sex can lead to pregnancy. Period.

-Kiamat Dusk

Ok so sex can lead to pregnancy, therefore I should keep my legs closed. That is what you are saying, right?

So then when I want to fuck my husband for FUN, I shouldn't? Because I could end up pregnant and I don't really want that right now. But I just want to have wild moneky sex with no consequences.

But I should keep my legs shut.

I can guarantee you that if I were to get pregnant again after I have this child, and have my tubes tied, I would probably abort.

Your comment about sex leading to pregnancy is crap and you know it. It may make sense to some people but don't try to use a blanket statment like that for everyone else.

I will fuck when I want thank you. And no, I shouldn't have to worry about getting pregnant.

Hehe. I agree with both Neehai and Kiamat in different ways.

So for my sanity, and what little sanity this forum may have left, I will not even try to explain that.

In fact I'm writing off this whole thread as a freak off-topic accident!

You know that, I know that, but not everyone who is having sex knows that. Seriously. Those people are not getting any sort of sex education. Period.

Myths about pregnancy that some people still believe:
1) I can't get pregnant if it's my first time.
2) If he pulls out, I won't get pregnant.
3) I can't get pregnant if I'm very young.
4) Can't get pregnant if I have sex standing up.
5) Can't get pregnant if I have sex during my period.
6) Can't get pregnant if I have sex in a hot tub.
7) Douching after sex will prevent pregnancy.

There are certainly more myths than this. Fact is, I remember hearing many and more of these myths when I was younger. I didn't believe them, but that's because I was lucky and had parents who did not believe in hiding the truth from me... unfortunately, this is not the case for everyone.

No, what I am saying is, fuck who you want, when you want, how you want...just understand that it may lead to pregnancy, and OMG, you may have another child to deal with. That's all I'm saying.

-Kiamat Dusk

Like, OMG, I so wouldn't have another one to deal with.


I have been told to abort this one I am currently carrying if the test I just had comes back saying it has cystic fibrosis.

Should insurance companies be forced to sell life insurance for fetuses?

Can you claim your fetus on your taxes?

I guess sometimes a fetus is a person and sometimes it's not. These women can't win for losing I tell ya.

Kiamat still doesn't understand the basics here. It's not your business. It's not government's business. Kiamat condones murder in certain cases, and wants it illegal in others. That's what happens when the state intervenes in peoples' private lives. They start drawing lines that are indefensible. So stay out of it. It's not your business.

I am horrified that the medical facts of what actually occurs during various forms of abortion produces nothing more than a yawn out of you.

Does it actually surprise you in any way, though?

Really? Did you think we all just thought the Abortion Fairy came and magically removed the fetus?

None of this was news to me.

Mulch - <shakes head, laughs> sends bill via email for keyboard frapped by spit coffee.

.

Then move to Poland.

Why do you hate America?

I disagree. If the leaders of this country are completely gung-ho on removing abortion as an option, then every single measure should be taken to first reduce the rate of unwanted pregnancy. And a number of those measures are going to take time - especially the education factor. Even if we stopped everything and funnelled all available funds into this, we're still looking at 50 years.




Joy is absolutely correct. Many DON'T know that, and they're the ones that are having sex and getting pregnant because they aren't getting any more education than "don't have sex" - teenagers. They're also the ones that are most terrified when they do become pregnant and chances are will go to the worst lengths to abort the child rather than tell their parents - including illegal abortions, if the option isn't made available to them to have a safe and legal one.


One point that the anti-choice faction never seems to touch on - when a woman is determined to end a pregnancy, she will, whether you tell her its illegal or not.

Do we make abortion illegal for those that make that decision, so they run a far greater chance of dying or contracting infection or sterilizing themselves? Or do we keep it legal, which means the procedure can be done in a safe, hygenic and sterile fashion?

Any choices to combat this problem that remove a legal right to a safe abortion before the unwanted pregnancy rate has dropped to the absolute minimum is irresponsible to women's health, not to mention a decision made solely on one's personal religious/moral convictions and not on realistic factors and solutions to the problem.

There should only be few reasons for an abortion. If a mothers life is in danger, molestation, rape, incest or if there is something wrong with the fetus.

Using abortion as birth control is just plain sick. If your going to whore yourself and have the attitude, "Oh if i get pregnant i will just pop the morning after pill or get an abortion" then you are a useless human being and can't wait till Roe V. Wade is reversed.

I was 11 when a neighborhood kid starting having sex with me. I thought it was a compliment that a 15 year old was attracted to me. I was 13 when I became pregnant. The then 17 year old said he would have all of his friends say they had had sex with me if I named him as the father. I planned to run away and live on the beach carrying the baby in a wicker basket.

My mother found out. She felt I was not ready to have a baby. That my chances of having a good life would be impossible. At the time, most young gilrls having babies just stayed on welfare. Plus at the age of 13, my body wasn't fully developed, I would not have given birth easily or healthily. She made arrangements for an abortion. I fought it at first. But in hindsight, it was the best decision for me.

For years before Roe vs Wade, women went to shady characters and laid on dirty newspaper covered tables and other things.

I wish the same people who are so concerned with the abortion issue would spend as much time trying to help the babies and children in the world that are here and suffering. It sometimes seems their concerns stop at birth.

One of the huge ironies about objections to abortion on religious moral grounds is that there's a very strong correlation between the degree of religiosity in a society and the frequency of teen pregnancy and transmission of STD's.

That attitude is a perfect example of one "made solely on one's personal religious/moral convictions". "Whore yourself"? Equating all sexual acts to some act of "whorishness" is completely demeaning, unrealistic, and passes sweeping moral judgement on an entire gender - not to mention views any resulting pregnancy as a punishment for said "whorish" acts.