Welcome to the Second Life Forums Archive

These forums are CLOSED. Please visit the new forums HERE

Abortion: Putting A Face On The Issue

Blueman Steele
Registered User
Join date: 28 Dec 2004
Posts: 1,038
02-25-2006 17:11
to save both sides some time.

Taken from....
http://www.abortiontv.com/Lies%20&%20Myths/AnswersToProChoice.htm


The Fetus is part of the pregnant woman’s body, like her tonsils or appendix.
A body part is defined by the common genetic code it shares with the rest of it’s body; the unborn’s genetic code differs entirely from the mother’s. Being "inside something" is not the same as being part of something. A car is not part of a garage because it is parked there. Human beings should not be discriminated against because of their "place of residence."

The unborn is an embryo or a fetus – just a simple blob of tissue -- not a baby. Abortion is simply terminating a pregnancy, not killing a child.

Like toddler and adolescent, the terms embryo and fetus do not refer to non-humans, but humans in a particular stage of development. Fetus is a Latin word meaning "young one" or "little child." Is stage of development related to a person’s worth? Is a two-year old worth less than a 6-year-old, etc?

From the moment of conception the unborn is not simple, but very complex. The newly fertilized egg contains a staggering genetic information, sufficient to control the individual’s growth and development for an entire lifetime.

Prior to the earliest first-trimester abortions, the unborn already has every body part she will ever have. At 18 days, after conception, the heart is forming and the eyes start to develop. By 30 days, she has multiplied in size ten thousand times. She has a brain and blood flows through her veins. By 42 days, the skeleton is formed and the brain is controlling the movement of the muscles and organs. After the first trimester, nothing new develops or begins functioning. The child only grows and matures.

It is uncertain when human life begins, therefore it’s a religious question, not a scientific one.

Even though this argument is hardly used by the majority of pro-choice anymore, there are still a few who think it is a relevant argument. Bottom line is the question can be answered one of three ways. One could answer it in a religious theory; however, not everyone is of the same religion and some just plain don't believe in religion. So answering the question of when does human life begin in a religious theory makes it open to much debate. Another way the question could be answered is in a philosophic theory. Again not everyone's philosophy on a subject is the same and again the theory is left open to much debate. There is finally another theory which can answer the question of when does life begin. It is the biological theory. Biological human life is defined by studying the scientific facts of human development. This field of study has no disagreements and no controversy. Bottom line is that there is truly only one set of facts. The more knowledge that has been learned about human development, the more science confirms that life, biologically speaking, begins at conception. This means that at conception there is a human who is very much alive, human, complete and growing.

The biological fact is not a spiritual belief, nor is it a philosophical theory. The biological fact is not debatable, not questionable. It is a universally accepted scientific fact. See also "When Do Human Beings Begin."

The unborn isn’t a person with a meaningful life. It’s only inches in size, can’t think, and is less advanced than an animal.

A living being’s designation to a species is determined not by the stage of development, but by the sum total of its biological characteristics – which are genetically determined. If we say that a fetus is not human, then we must state that it is a member of another species – an impossibility. What makes a human "human" is that he/she came from humans. A dog is a dog because he came from dogs – both the mother and father were dogs.

Does size determine personhood? Is an NBA basketball player more of a person than someone half his size? If you lose ¼ of your bodyweight through a diet, do you lose ¼ of your personhood? If personhood is determined by one’s current capacities, then someone who is unconscious or sick could be killed immediately because he/she is not demonstrating superior intellect or skills. Age, size, IQ or stage development are simply differences in degree, not kind.

The fetus may be alive, but so are eggs and sperm. The fetus is a potential human being, not an actual one. It’s like the blueprint, not a house, and acorn and not an oak tree.

Something non-human does not become human by getting older and bigger -- whatever is human must be human from the beginning.

When the egg and sperm are joined, a new, dynamic, and genetically distinct human life begins. This life is neither sperm nor egg, nor a simple combination of both. It is independent, with a life of its own, on a rapid pace of self-directed development.

A fetus isn’t a "person" until viability.

Viability (the point when an unborn baby could survive outside of the womb) is an arbitrary concept. Why isn’t personhood associated with heartbeat (begins just 21 days after conception), or brainwaves (43 days after conception), or something else? The actual point of viability constantly changes because it depends on technology, not on the unborn baby.

Based on the same viability logic, many "born" people are not viable because they cannot survive on their own without the aid of others. Should we abort them too?

No one should be expected to donate her body as a life-support system for someone else.

The right to life doesn’t increase with age and size; otherwise toddlers and adolescents would have less of a right to live than adults.

What is really at stake is the mother’s lifestyle, as opposed to the baby’s life. No one has an absolute unconditional right to a lifestyle. It is always governed by its effects on others. There are 1,000’s of restrictions on us including no-smoking provisions, noise and zoning ordinances, etc. Finally, is it reasonable for society to expect an adult to live with a temporary inconvenience if the only alternative is killing a child?

Every person has the right to choose. It would be unfair to restrict a woman’s choice by prohibiting abortion.

All civilize societies restrict individual freedoms when that "choice" would harm an innocent person. Do men have the freedom of choice to rape a woman if that is his choice? After all, it’s his body, why do we have a right to tell him what to do with it? Why do we have a right to impose our morals on him? By emphasizing a rapist’s right to choose, we clearly are completely ignoring the rights of the woman.

We have laws that restrict false advertising, and others that protect us from tainted foods or bad products. We have laws against discrimination and violence. When other’s rights are at stake – particularly when their lives are at stake – society is expected to, and must restrict the individual’s freedoms of choice. The fact is that people who are pro-choice about abortion, are often not prochoice about other issues with less at stake.

Throughout history, nearly all violations of human rights have been defended on the grounds of the right to choose, e.g. "you don’t have to own slaves if you don’t want to, but don’t tell us we can’t choose to. It’s our right." The civil rights movement fought to take away this "slavery choice," while the woman’s movement fought to take away an employer’s free choice to discriminate against women. The pro-choice position always overlooks the victim’s right to choose. Women don’t choose rape. African Americans didn’t choose slavery. The Jews didn’t choose to be killed in ovens….and babies don’t choose abortion.

Every woman should have control over her own body. Reproductive freedom is a basic right.

Abortion insures that 750,000 females each year do not have control over their bodies. Why? Because they’re killed. About ½ of the total babies aborted each year in the United States are female – killed before they are even born, not even able to enjoy the basic right to life.

We don’t have absolute control over our bodies. A man is not permitted to expose himself in public. In most areas of the country, women are not allowed to sell their bodies through prostitution. We’re also not permitted to take illegal drugs.

Too often, the "right to control my life," becomes a right to hurt an oppress others. Whites used blacks to enhance their own quality of life, but did so at the expense of blacks. Men have often used women to live their lives as they wanted, but at the expense of women.

Abortion rights are fundamental for the advancement of women.

The founding feminists were prolife, not prochoice. Susan B. Anthony, referred to abortion as "child murder" and viewed it as a means of exploiting both women and children.

Another leading (founding) feminist, Elizabeth Cady Stanton, said "When we consider that women are treated as property, it is degrading to women that we should treat our children as property to be disposed of as we wish."

What happened? Abortion rights activists tied abortion to "women’s rights" in the 1960’s as a profit motive. To find out more, see "Feminism and Abortion." Further many of today’s active feminists still oppose abortion. Feminists for Life was started in the early 1970’s to counter the misdirected mainstream feminist movement's change to pro-abortion.

"I’m personally against abortion, but I wouldn’t take that right away from someone else."

To be prochoice about abortion is to be pro-abortion. Suppose drug dealing were legalized and you heard this argument:

"I’m personally not in favor of someone dealing drugs at schools, but that’s a matter to decide between the drug dealer and his attorney. We don’t want to go back to the days when drug dealing was illegal, and people died in back alleys from bad cocaine. I personally wouldn’t buy drugs, so I’m not pro-drugs. I’m just pro-choice about drug dealing."

Basically, being personally against abortion but favoring another’s right to abortion is self-contradictory and morally baffling. It’s exactly like saying, "We’re personally against child abuse, but we defend our neighbor’s right to abuse his child if that is his choice."

Someone who is prochoice about rape might argue that it’s not the same as being pro-rape. What’s the difference, since being prochoice about rape allows and promotes the legitimacy of rape? Those who were prochoice about slavery believed their moral position was sound since they personally didn’t own slaves. Similarly, most people in Germany did not favor the killing of Jews, but did nothing to stop the killing.

Some people have an illusion that being personally opposed to abortion while believing others should be free to choose it is some kind of compromise between pro-abortion and prolife positions. It isn’t. Pro-choice people vote the same as pro-abortion people. Both oppose legal protection for the unborn, and both are willing for children to die – even if they do not directly participate in the killings.

Abortion is legal. Things that are "legal" are OK, aren’t they?

The government has a reputation as a protector, although closer examination reveals that this is an inconsistent position. Anything "legal" is actually a defacto endorsement from our government. Abortion is legal, so many women go blindly through the process believing that "if the government says its OK, then it must be fine." Countless women who have abortions are shocked at the realities of the experience -- both physically and mentally -- wondering, "why wasn't I warned?"

If abortions were illegal, there would probably be around 100,000 a year, as opposed to 1.5 million today -- so it's easy to conclude that this would save lives. Hearts would not be changed however – this is only accomplished through a consistent education program.

Finally, what is legal is not always right. Law doesn’t reflect morality – rather the law should reflect a morality that is independent of the law. Case in point: was abortion immoral on January 21, 1973 and moral on January 23, 1973? In the 1940’s a German doctor could kill Jews legally, while in America he would have been prosecuted for murder. In the 1970’s and American doctor could kill unborn babies legally, while in Germany he would have been prosecuted for murder. Laws change. Truth and justice don’t.

It’s unfair to bring children into a world when they’re not wanted.

There’s a major difference between and unwanted pregnancy and an unwanted child. Every child is wanted by someone. There are currently 200,000 couples in the US desperately seeking to adopt, yet less than 25,000 babies available each year. Demand is so great, that couples are forced to adopt in China and Russia, often spending more than $20,000 to do so.

Not just "normal" babies are wanted – many people request babies with Down’s Syndrome and there have been lists of over a hundred couples waiting to adopt babies with spina bifida.

Slave owners argued that slavery was in the best interest of blacks, since they couldn’t make it on their own. Exploiting people and stripping them of their rights is always easier when we tell ourselves we’re doing it for their good rather than our own.

Having more unwanted children results in greater child abuse.

In the first 10 years after abortion was legalize, child abuse increased by over 500%. Is it any wonder? Isn’t it easy to conclude that "if it’s OK to abuse our unwanted children by killing them, then why not our "born" children?" Studies also have shown that child abuse is more frequent among mothers who have previously had an abortion.

Further, most abused children were wanted by their parents. A study conducted by professor Edward Lenoski of the University of California concluded that 91% of abused children were from planned pregnancies. In society, 64% of pregnancies are planned – concluding that among abused children, a significantly higher percentage were wanted children compared to the percentage of wanted children in society at large.

Abortion helps solve the problem of overpopulation.

The current birth rate in America is less than what is needed to maintain our population level. In 1957, the average American woman in her reproductive years bore 3.7 children. Taking into account all causes of death and the increases in average life span, zero population growth requires that the average woman bears 2.1 children. Since 1972, the average in America has been 1.8 children – a figure that is below zero population growth. In fact, any increases since 1972 have been due to immigration.

What about elsewhere? There are now 6 billion people on Earth. The planet's population will most likely continue to climb until 2050, when it will peak at 9 billion. Other predictions have the world's population peaking at 7.5 billion in 2040. In either case, it will then go into a sharp decline. With fertility rates low and anti-foreigner sentiment rising in Europe, the United Nations recently released a study that suggests Europe will need mass migration from the Third World to populate it. The report, written by the United Nations Population Division, states that South Korea, Japan, Europe and Russia are facing population crunches. If Japan continues its current abortion policies and fails to raise its average birth rate of 1.4 children per married couple, will have fewer than 500 people by the year 3000 (see "The Overpopulation Lie";). By 2050, the population of Russia will reduce to 150 million. In the 1970s, Russia's population rivaled America's, at more than 225 million people.

Finally, the entire population of the world could be placed in one gigantic city within the borders of the state of Texas (with a population density less than many cities around the world).

If abortion were made illegal, there would still be many abortions.

There are laws against rape, burglary, armed robbery and illegal drug dealing, yet every one of these crimes continues to happen in our society. Does the fact that these crimes still happen inspire us to make them legal? Clearly not, as laws should exist to discourage bad things from happening. Laws concerning abortion have significantly influenced whether women choose to have abortions. In one survey, 72 percent said they would definitely not have sought an abortion if having one were illegal.

If abortion is made illegal, thousands of women will die from back alley and clothes hanger abortions.

This is a favorite myth put forth by pro-abortionists. Prior to legalization, 90 percent of abortions were done by physicians in their offices, not in back alleys. Further, women still suffer and die from "legal" abortions in America (see "Abortions Gone Wrong";).

Abortion is a safe medical procedure, safer than full-term pregnancy and childbirth.

Abortion is not safer than full term pregnancy and childbirth. Less than one in 10,000 pregnancies results in the mother’s death.Government statistics indicate the chances of death by abortion are even less – however, deaths from childbirth are accurately reported, while many deaths by legal abortion are not – completely skewing the statistics. Abortion actually increases the chance of maternal death in later pregnancies. Women face injuries to the uterus, cervix, urinary tract, infection, hemorrhage, heart failure, embolism, sterilizations, ruptured intestines & bowels, coma, and even death. In addition, there are countless cases of abortionists sexually abusing their clients while under anesthesia. In fact, you're four times more likely to die in the year following your abortion (see report). Further, woman who have abortions suffer mental health declines, while those who deliver their child actually have improved mental health (see report).

What about a woman whose life is threatened by pregnancy or childbirth?

American Life League's (www.all.org) medical advisors say the answer is a simple, unequivocal "no"— and any claim to the contrary is bogus. And many other doctors across the country agree. American Life League circulated a statement (3/00) concerning this position to a select number of doctors around the country. More than 100 physicians have signed the statement — including former abortionists Bernard Nathanson and Beverly McMillan. The statement reads, "I agree that there is never a situation in the law or in the ethical practice of medicine where a preborn [unborn] child's life need be intentionally destroyed by procured abortion for the purpose of saving the life of the mother. A physician must do everything possible to save the lives of both of his patients, mother and child. He must never intend the death of either." See "Life of Mother Exception?"

While he was the United States Surgeon General, Dr. C. Everett Koop stated publicly that in his thirty-eight years as a pediatric surgeon, he was never aware of a single situation in which a preborn child’s life had to be taken in order to save the life of the mother. He said that the use of this argument to justify abortion in general was a "smoke screen."

What about a woman who is pregnant due to rape or incest?

Less than 1% of all abortions are due to rape or incest. Furthermore, since conception doesn’t occur immediately after intercourse, pregnancy can be prevented in nearly all rape cases by medical treatments including the morning after pill (MAP).

Nearly all the women interviewed in a recent survey said they regretted aborting the babies conceived via rape or incest. Of those giving an opinion, more than 90 percent said they would discourage other victims of sexual violence from having an abortion (see report)

Finally, if you found out today that your biological father had raped your mother, would you feel you no longer had a right to live?

Abortion Reduces Crime

Roe v. Wade did not reduce the rate of illegitimacy, which is widely believed to contribute to crime. Indeed, illegitimacy shot upwards in a straight line from 5% in 1962 to 33% of babies born today. The legalization of abortion had no visible affect whatsoever on this disastrous trend. Only in the more conservative cultural climate of the late Nineties did the illegitimacy rate start to plateau - and at the same time the number of abortions dipped as well.

A study by Levitt and Donohue point out that the crime rate started to fall about 18-20 years after Roe v. Wade in 1973. However, this reasoning also implies that these same individuals born soon after 1973 should have grown up to be especially law-abiding teens in the early Nineties. Did they?

No. Instead, this generation born after Roe v. Wade went on the worst youth murder spree in American history. According to FBI statistics, the murder rate in 1993 for 14-17 years olds (who were born in the high abortion years of 1975-1979) was a horrifying 3.6 times higher than that of the kids who were 14-17 years old in 1984 (who were born in the pre-legalization years of 1966-1970).
Blueman Steele
Registered User
Join date: 28 Dec 2004
Posts: 1,038
After reading all that
02-25-2006 17:17
Maybe if people really wanted to prevent abortions they'd simply find a way to enforce people from unfairly firing women from work due to pregnancy or even the ability to get pregnant.

Women who have babies often give up many choices, not just the birth itself.
Ordinal Malaprop
really very ordinary
Join date: 9 Sep 2005
Posts: 4,607
02-25-2006 17:17
From: Neehai Zapata
This thread makes me hungry.

Me too. I'll have a dozen foetuses on sticks, please, with peanut sauce and sweet chilli. Mmm.
Mulch Ennui
15 Minutes are Over
Join date: 22 May 2005
Posts: 2,607
02-25-2006 17:18
From: Ordinal Malaprop
Me too. I'll have a dozen foetuses on sticks, please, with peanut sauce and sweet chilli. Mmm.


What is grosser than gross?













A Pile of Dead Babies

What is grosser than that











A live one on the bottom


what is even grosser than that





















He is eating his way out!
_____________________
I have of late--but wherefore I know not--lost all my mirth, that this goodly frame, the earth, seems to me a sterile promontory, this most excellent canopy, the air, look you, this brave o'erhanging firmament, this majestical roof fretted with golden fire, why, it appears no other thing to me than a foul and pestilent congregation of vapours.

http://forums.secondcitizen.com/
Reitsuki Kojima
Witchhunter
Join date: 27 Jan 2004
Posts: 5,328
02-25-2006 17:23
You scared me mulch. With those big spaces I was expecting images to load, images I most assuredly didn't want to see. :D
_____________________
I am myself indifferent honest; but yet I could accuse me of such things that it were better my mother had not borne me: I am very proud, revengeful, ambitious, with more offenses at my beck than I have thoughts to put them in, imagination to give them shape, or time to act them in. What should such fellows as I do crawling between earth and heaven? We are arrant knaves, all; believe none of us.
Michael Seraph
Second Life Resident
Join date: 9 Nov 2004
Posts: 849
02-25-2006 17:25
Ah the sheer hypocrisy of it all. First you say this:
From: Kiamat Dusk
The fact that you can condone this on any level speaks volumes.


Then you go and condone in on levels you feel comfortable with.
From: Kiamat Dusk
I like Poland's take...for the most part. In Poland you can get an abortion only in the case of rape/incest or there is a risk of death to the mother.

I would only include risk of serious, permanent injury to the mother as well.

That would satisfy your safe, legal, and rare qualifications.

-Kiamat Dusk


If a fetus is a fully fledged human with civil rights how can you condone its murder because of its relation to its father (incest) or because of the illegal actions of its father (rape)? This is an example of why the government should stay out of this. People who go mucking about in other people's private lives just end up making things worse. Stay out of it, it's not your business.
Reitsuki Kojima
Witchhunter
Join date: 27 Jan 2004
Posts: 5,328
02-25-2006 17:27
From: Michael Seraph
If a fetus is a fully fledged human with civil rights how can you condone its murder because of its relation to its father (incest) or because of the illegal actions of its father (rape)? This is an example of why the government should stay out of this. People who go mucking about in other people's private lives just end up making things worse. Stay out of it, it's not your business.


Well, in fairness, I would lump "incest" in as a medical reason... It's not a Good Thing(TM) geneticly.
_____________________
I am myself indifferent honest; but yet I could accuse me of such things that it were better my mother had not borne me: I am very proud, revengeful, ambitious, with more offenses at my beck than I have thoughts to put them in, imagination to give them shape, or time to act them in. What should such fellows as I do crawling between earth and heaven? We are arrant knaves, all; believe none of us.
Soleil Mirabeau
eh?
Join date: 6 Oct 2005
Posts: 995
02-25-2006 17:41
From: Reitsuki Kojima
Well, in fairness, I would lump "incest" in as a medical reason... It's not a Good Thing(TM) geneticly.


Except to polygamists in Utah. They like to uhh, keep it in the blood line. KnowwhatI'msayin'?
Michael Seraph
Second Life Resident
Join date: 9 Nov 2004
Posts: 849
02-25-2006 17:42
From: Reitsuki Kojima
Well, in fairness, I would lump "incest" in as a medical reason... It's not a Good Thing(TM) geneticly.


Repeated inbreeding can cause medical problems, but we don't execute people with medical problems. If a fetus is a person then you can't kill it because of it's genetic makeup. Right? Kiamat's comfort level doesn't seem to include the health of the fetus, only the health of the mother, anyway.
Mulch Ennui
15 Minutes are Over
Join date: 22 May 2005
Posts: 2,607
02-25-2006 17:44
From: Reitsuki Kojima
You scared me mulch. With those big spaces I was expecting images to load, images I most assuredly didn't want to see. :D


No, Jeska informed me that posting photos of Iraqi babies killed by American forces ("collateral damage", or as some might say "future terrorists";) were not appropriate for the off topic forums

my guess is someone saw them and rather than deal with their conscience (and as a representational democracy we are directly responsible for the actions of our leaders and hence have personally signed every missle and bullet we sent to Iraq and hence bear the wieght of those sins) reported me for offending them

If i remember correctly, someone stated they were offended and I think it was Kendra who asked if they thought the dead Iraqi baby was offended for being blown up by our missle

but I guess, to some people, abortion is bad, killing them when they are out of the womb is totally cool (capital punishment, "military actions", etc)

remember kids, thou shalt not kill, unless the government tells you to
_____________________
I have of late--but wherefore I know not--lost all my mirth, that this goodly frame, the earth, seems to me a sterile promontory, this most excellent canopy, the air, look you, this brave o'erhanging firmament, this majestical roof fretted with golden fire, why, it appears no other thing to me than a foul and pestilent congregation of vapours.

http://forums.secondcitizen.com/
Mulch Ennui
15 Minutes are Over
Join date: 22 May 2005
Posts: 2,607
02-25-2006 17:49
From: Michael Seraph

If a fetus is a fully fledged human with civil rights how can you condone its murder because of its relation to its father (incest) or because of the illegal actions of its father (rape)? This is an example of why the government should stay out of this. People who go mucking about in other people's private lives just end up making things worse. Stay out of it, it's not your business.


well stated

personally, (i prolly shouldnt do this, but here goes) my opinion is abortion is bad and in a moral sense, it is murder

that being said, the grey area of proving this or debating the birth of the soul (impossible) and consciousness (much the same) isn't going to happen, I must take the approach of trying to influence people not to do it, but ultimately to leave it up to them and their maker

I am pro life (in that I prefer babies be born and I think life should not be manually ended) but I am pro choice as the entire issue is all grey area legally

if you are neocon pro life, you are most likely doing it on a religious basis, so trust in God to make things right and deal with sinners with His devine Judgement
_____________________
I have of late--but wherefore I know not--lost all my mirth, that this goodly frame, the earth, seems to me a sterile promontory, this most excellent canopy, the air, look you, this brave o'erhanging firmament, this majestical roof fretted with golden fire, why, it appears no other thing to me than a foul and pestilent congregation of vapours.

http://forums.secondcitizen.com/
Reitsuki Kojima
Witchhunter
Join date: 27 Jan 2004
Posts: 5,328
02-25-2006 18:02
From: Michael Seraph
Repeated inbreeding can cause medical problems, but we don't execute people with medical problems. If a fetus is a person then you can't kill it because of it's genetic makeup. Right? Kiamat's comfort level doesn't seem to include the health of the fetus, only the health of the mother, anyway.


Despite being in the same political party (I'm guessing), me and Kiamat don't see eye to eye on a whole lot.

I wouldn't *force* an abortion for incest. But I would *suggest* it, if done early enough in the pregnancy.
_____________________
I am myself indifferent honest; but yet I could accuse me of such things that it were better my mother had not borne me: I am very proud, revengeful, ambitious, with more offenses at my beck than I have thoughts to put them in, imagination to give them shape, or time to act them in. What should such fellows as I do crawling between earth and heaven? We are arrant knaves, all; believe none of us.
Reitsuki Kojima
Witchhunter
Join date: 27 Jan 2004
Posts: 5,328
02-25-2006 18:03
From: Mulch Ennui
well stated

personally, (i prolly shouldnt do this, but here goes) my opinion is abortion is bad and in a moral sense, it is murder

that being said, the grey area of proving this or debating the birth of the soul (impossible) and consciousness (much the same) isn't going to happen, I must take the approach of trying to influence people not to do it, but ultimately to leave it up to them and their maker

I am pro life (in that I prefer babies be born and I think life should not be manually ended) but I am pro choice as the entire issue is all grey area legally

if you are neocon pro life, you are most likely doing it on a religious basis, so trust in God to make things right and deal with sinners with His devine Judgement


That's *mostly* my opinion too, although I don't know that I'll agree that *very* early abortion is murder... I have a hard time being convinced a shapeless lump of cells is a human. I can *understand* that point of view, I just don't think I can share it.
_____________________
I am myself indifferent honest; but yet I could accuse me of such things that it were better my mother had not borne me: I am very proud, revengeful, ambitious, with more offenses at my beck than I have thoughts to put them in, imagination to give them shape, or time to act them in. What should such fellows as I do crawling between earth and heaven? We are arrant knaves, all; believe none of us.
Creami Cannoli
Please don't eat me....
Join date: 17 Jul 2005
Posts: 414
02-25-2006 20:41
I of course am going to have to take issue with the whole it's not a baby so early in a pregnancy.

I had an ultrasound at 7 weeks, and there was a definate baby shape to it. It was not a lump of cells, I was not projecting what I wanted to see. There was a head, a body and arm and leg buds forming. The heart was beating.

That is well before the whole 12 week cut off that most Planned Parenthoods have for performing abortions.

I also have a book, I do not remember the name at the moment since it was packed away after I had my son, but it was a scientific look at conception to birth through the use of computer generated images combined with ultrasounds. I do know that Oprah (evil woman that she is) had it on her show a long time ago. If I can find the book I will edit this post to add the title.

I use www.babycenter.com to keep track of what is developing when on my baby. It is not a website with a pro-life or pro-choice agenda. It is what it is, basing its facts on what has been determined scientifically.

To say that it is *just* a lump of cells in the first trimester is wrong. because after a few weeks, it is a basic shape of a baby.

I will honestly say that if I had given an ultrasound when I went to Planned Parenthood when I was pregnanat at 18, I probably wouldn't have had an abortion. Too see it, and what it actually looks like, rather than hearing it is just a lump of cells, would probably stop many abortions from happening. Women should be informed, and shown if they want to see for themselves. Some women won't want the ultrasound and shouldn't be forced to have one. But to have the option AT THAT TIME would be a great thing in some cases.

I have seen friends spiral out of control after having an abortion and then seeing developmental pictures of what the fetus looked like in the timeframe that it was aborted. I think that it could save some women a lot of heartache and grief later in life, especially if they had second thoughts in the first place but went ahead and did it.

I am pro-life. I do think people should be accountable for their own actions and deal with the consequences ( I am not saying "pay the price for having sex..blah blah). I support abortion in the cases of rape/incest/endangerment to the mother's life/and if the baby is to be born with no brain/no chance of a meaningful life. I just don't support it for convenience. If you had asked me 12 years ago, I would have been the most rabid abortion supporter around. Live and learn.
Flavian Molinari
Broadly Offensive Content
Join date: 1 Aug 2004
Posts: 662
02-25-2006 20:58
From: Kiamat Dusk
-The poor remark was aimed at the argument that the poor need access to abortions because they can't afford other forms of birth control.


Is that your argument?

From: Kiamat Dusk
-Grenada, Libya, Bosnia, Somalia...nope-no tryants there! As for Idi Amin and the Khmer Rouge-just because we had pussy presidents back then doesn't mean that Bush is wrong now.


-Grenada had nothing to do with tyrants

-Libya has significant oil reserves and Mohammar Qaddafi was accused of supporting terroist. He was trying to leverage his oil as influence in the region. Saudi Arabia has significant oil reserves and gave exile to Idi Amin. It is also the birth place of Al Quada, Since they let the oil flow we don't bomb the shit out of them.

-I would not call our presence in Somila a fight for anything.

-Our peace keeping force in Bosina was placed to end a civil war not to take over the country. Our presence there was to bolster a UN mission that was going sour. There were some pretty bad dudes that were arrested so I guess you could say it was a fight against tyranny.


From: Kiamat Dusk
-This dog still doesn't hunt. We get more oil from Venezuela than we do Iraq and it's a hell of a lot closer. If we were going to go to war for oil, we'd just march down there instead of going half way around the world. Also, you'll note that we didn't make Kuwait the 51st state after we liberated it. Again, if we were in it for the oil-that would have been a great idea.


This dog does hunt. We get more oil from middle east than Venezuela. We liberated Kuwait becaue they have oil we need to run our economy just like Iraq. I assure you if Kuwait decided not to sell us oil they would become the 51st state

From: Kiamat Dusk
-I own 2 laptops that were likely made in Taiwan. But that's beside the point. And I'm not following your point on China anyway. Are you saying that I shouldn't buy products from any country where abortion is legal?


I think you do follow my point, but nice try playing dumb.


From: Kiamat Dusk
-And thanks for keeping the discussion at the 5th grade level.


Thanks for the red font. Did you do that in homage to Red China?

I like how you mix womans rights, just wars and tyranny. You talk about 5th grade antics like you have something mature and profound to share.

If you think war is OK you obviously havent been to one. I could show you some pictures but it wouldn't change you mind.
SuezanneC Baskerville
Forums Rock!
Join date: 22 Dec 2003
Posts: 14,229
02-25-2006 21:14
Why do you use the word genocide?
From: someone
And this why I will never stop fighting for an end to this self-inflicted genocide.
_____________________
-

So long to these forums, the vBulletin forums that used to be at forums.secondlife.com. I will miss them.

I can be found on the web by searching for "SuezanneC Baskerville", or go to

http://www.google.com/profiles/suezanne

-

http://lindenlab.tribe.net/ created on 11/19/03.

Members: Ben, Catherine, Colin, Cory, Dan, Doug, Jim, Philip, Phoenix, Richard,
Robin, and Ryan

-
Siro Mfume
XD
Join date: 5 Aug 2004
Posts: 747
02-26-2006 00:46
I would posit that if you want to afford more rights to an 'unborn child', you should then extend more rights to a living child than we do today. Part of the reason we don't provide such rights is because children are not even considered sentient until around 12-14. That child then has to wait a good 7-9 years for the full rights of a 'person'. So affording personhood to the 'unborn child' is somewhat counterproductive when those rights end at birth.
PetGirl Bergman
Fellow Creature:-)
Join date: 16 Feb 2005
Posts: 2,414
02-26-2006 01:02
NO religion! No other than myself decide over MY body. Thats all. There are pills and condoms and we all hopefully can use them plus the brain..

Abortion are for sure no fun for any but can be needed. IF so - do the best,,,

Tks. Tina
Neehai Zapata
Unofficial Parent
Join date: 8 Apr 2004
Posts: 1,970
02-26-2006 06:52
What annoys me to no end on the issue of abortion is this.

There are thousands of ways to end abortion. Yet, people like to focus on making it illegal.

We hae an administration that does not want to promote birth control and safe sex practices outside of abstinence, yet they would love for abortion to not exists.

I think most people could agree that it would be better overall if there was no abortion. Meaning, there were no abortions. Meaning, there was not a need for abortions.

Solving this issue isn't about photos of fetuses and passing laws. This is about prevention.

Look at Romania. This is a country with legal abortion and virtually no access to birth control or family planning methods. Over 50% of pregnancies in Romania end in abortion.

The issue of abortion is not an issue of whether or not you have a right to your body or whether a fetus is a person. This is an issue about population and fundamental rights.

A womans ability to control the number and spacing of her children is fundamental to her empowerment in this world.

I have been all over the world and this is a fundamental truth. In societies where women do not have the option to control the number and spacing of their children the entire society is economically and socially stunted.

I would like to see the Pro-Lifers put there money where there mouth is and begin providing true alternatives to abortion. Abstinence doesn't cut it. it is like you are setting people up so that you can judge them later.
_____________________
Unofficial moderator and proud dysfunctional parent to over 1000 bastard children.
Neehai Zapata
Unofficial Parent
Join date: 8 Apr 2004
Posts: 1,970
02-26-2006 06:55
Also, an interesting statistic.

Under the Clinton administration abortion rates in the US declined every year.

Under the Bush administration abortion rates in the US increased every year.

Wanting a law to outlaw abortion is not enough. You must be willing to address the root cause of the issue.
_____________________
Unofficial moderator and proud dysfunctional parent to over 1000 bastard children.
Cory Edo
is on a 7 second delay
Join date: 26 Mar 2005
Posts: 1,851
02-26-2006 08:43
From: Neehai Zapata
What annoys me to no end on the issue of abortion is this.

There are thousands of ways to end abortion. Yet, people like to focus on making it illegal.

We hae an administration that does not want to promote birth control and safe sex practices outside of abstinence, yet they would love for abortion to not exists.

I think most people could agree that it would be better overall if there was no abortion. Meaning, there were no abortions. Meaning, there was not a need for abortions.

Solving this issue isn't about photos of fetuses and passing laws. This is about prevention.

Look at Romania. This is a country with legal abortion and virtually no access to birth control or family planning methods. Over 50% of pregnancies in Romania end in abortion.

The issue of abortion is not an issue of whether or not you have a right to your body or whether a fetus is a person. This is an issue about population and fundamental rights.

A womans ability to control the number and spacing of her children is fundamental to her empowerment in this world.

I have been all over the world and this is a fundamental truth. In societies where women do not have the option to control the number and spacing of their children the entire society is economically and socially stunted.

I would like to see the Pro-Lifers put there money where there mouth is and begin providing true alternatives to abortion. Abstinence doesn't cut it. it is like you are setting people up so that you can judge them later.



Yes yes yes a thousand times yes.

Shit, women that get abortions aren't terribly thrilled about it. Its a shitty situation that they will more than likely feel guilty about their entire lives. The experience sucks from beginning to end - this isn't a trip to the day spa, no matter if its legal in your state or not.

Where is the free, on-demand birth control? Many insurance companies don't even cover Depo Provera, etc. Where is the birth control pill for men to take? It does take two to tango, you know. Where is the complete, informative, comprehensive sexual education? Instead we get abstinence classes (which I still can't believe anyone thinks will actually work), if anything at all.

This country has gotten the reality of sex and religious morality so wrapped up with each other that its backed itself into a corner. Don't talk about it, don't promote it, don't teach about it, don't provide any tools to prevent a pregnancy, and if someone does get pregnant, then make sure they're stuck.

Anti-abortion protesters - start putting your money and your mouth where it will do the most good. The only way to decrease the demand for abortion is to help prevent pregnancy in the first place.
_____________________
www.electricsheepcompany.com
Creami Cannoli
Please don't eat me....
Join date: 17 Jul 2005
Posts: 414
02-26-2006 08:57
I completely agree Neehai.

A law making it illegal won't do a damn thing except kill women needlessly.

Providing ways and access to what people need so it can be avoided entirely would be a great thing.

I would love to see both sides come together and work together on a plan to cut back on abortion. That would be a damn miracle.
Kiamat Dusk
Protest Warrior
Join date: 30 Sep 2004
Posts: 1,525
Re: Abortion Prevention
02-26-2006 09:52
There's always a lot of arguments about keep it legal but try to prevent it. This again is bullshit.

Let's word it another way so we can be clear as to what we're saying.

"Keep murder legal, but let's try to prevent it."

Yes, sex education is good. But so is personal responsibility. Everyone knows that no contraceptive is 100% effective including abortion. Both sides need to keep that in mind before they have sex. Period. The biological purpose of sex is to result in pregnancy. We all know this. Take some personal responsibility with your actions.

Oh and keep your hands off my body? Unless we're talking about rape-that clearly wasn't your position at the time of conception. But now it's your body and the father has no rights in the abortion issue, but if you decide to have the child then the father owes you money for the next 18 years because it took two to tango?

If it takes two to tango, it should take two to abort.

And the whole privacy issue-also bullshit. So if a woman has a child and literally throws it away in a dumpster or some such...well that's private. Or if I drown my five kids in the privacy of my own home-that's none of your business.

As for the incest thing-I file that under rape and with all of that I advocate for the Morning After Pill. Beyond that, it's time to look at other options that do not involve murdering the unborn.

But in the end, I think this will all be academic soon. I think the tide is finally rising against this issue and when it breaks on the SCOTUS, we'll find that murder is illegal once again.

-Kiamat Dusk
_____________________
"My pain is constant and sharp and I do not hope for a better world for anyone. In fact I want my pain to be inflicted on others. I want no one to escape." -Bret Easton Ellis 'American Psycho'

"Anger is a gift." -RATM "Freedom"

From: Vares Solvang
Eat me, you vile waste of food.
(Can you spot the irony?)

http://writing.com/authors/suffer
Neehai Zapata
Unofficial Parent
Join date: 8 Apr 2004
Posts: 1,970
02-26-2006 09:58
From: someone
There's always a lot of arguments about keep it legal but try to prevent it. This again is bullshit.

Let's word it another way so we can be clear as to what we're saying.

"Keep murder legal, but let's try to prevent it."

No, your argument is bullshit. It is also narrow.

By your logic, we should make murder illegal while doing as little as possible to prevent it.

An ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure. :)
_____________________
Unofficial moderator and proud dysfunctional parent to over 1000 bastard children.
Cory Edo
is on a 7 second delay
Join date: 26 Mar 2005
Posts: 1,851
02-26-2006 10:18
From: Kiamat Dusk

Yes, sex education is good. But so is personal responsibility. Everyone knows that no contraceptive is 100% effective including abortion. Both sides need to keep that in mind before they have sex. Period. The biological purpose of sex is to result in pregnancy. We all know this. Take some personal responsibility with your actions.


How can you possibly expect someone to be responsible without teaching them the information they need to make informed and responsible decisions? Or providing them with the means to help make responsible decisions? And the old saw "No contraceptive method is 100%" is technically correct but greatly misleading, and certainly nothing to base any reproductive decision on.

From the FDA website: http://www.fda.gov/fdac/features/1997/conceptbl.html



The typical use rate of pregnancy for Depo-Provera is 0.3%.

The typical use rate of pregnancy for the pill is 5%.

The typical use rate of pregnancy for a condom is 14%.

The typical use rate of pregnancy for natural family planning is 25%.

The typical use rate of pregnancy for no method at all is 85%.


So, there you go. 0.3% vs 85%. Considering no one is going to stop having sex anytime soon, why wouldn't it make more sense to promote free and universal birth control? You can pipe dream about a wonderful world where every person abstains from sex before they want to have a child, but its beyond time to start dealing with the reality of the situation.

Why have seat belts or air bags in cars? After all, if you're a responsible person, you'll never use a car at all until you're ready to be in a car accident.


To reiterate: people are going to have sex. If they don't use protection, they run an 85% chance of getting pregnant. If they use birth control, they run a 0.3% to 14% chance of getting pregnant.

If abortion is outlawed, there will still be abortions - for the people that can afford them. The rate of botched back-alley abortions will skyrocket.

If you prevent the pregnancy, you prevent the abortion. I fail to see the logic of your arguement against this.
_____________________
www.electricsheepcompany.com
1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 ... 39