Abortion: Putting A Face On The Issue

What state do you live in where a rapist qualifies for the death penalty, without murder being the main qualifier?

Also, the death penalty has been used in situations where the accused was later found innocent due to DNA evidence that wasn't available during his initial trial. Application of the death penalty is by no means perfect.



You are certainly welcome to choose what side to err upon. The problem lies when the pro-life movement decides to tell everyone else what side to err upon.




Again, I'm not sure which state you live in, but Roe v. Wade only protected a woman's right to an abortion up through the first trimester - that period of time when the fetus is not yet viable. Many states have much stricter laws regarding late-term abortions, and those are often much harder to obtain even if you live in a state that allows them, due to expense.



Again, you're welcome to believe what you want. The problem lies where you enact laws that enforce your mindset over others.




As others have more vividly related in this thread, adoption is a highly-imperfect, insanely expensive, legally complicated procedure. If this is the option that woman are supposed to take, why is it so costly and complicated?




Again, not sure where you're getting that inane generalization from.




Technically, its not a crime, because its not legally considered murder.

Its not a baby if its a fetus.

Your appeal to emotion by tossing in some statement about babies screaming is about as disingenuous as any other you've made in this post. Why work with facts when its so much easier to make false plays to emotion?

But you are. You have awesome possum as your user title and I have been known to say that still.

SO I have love for you as well, as long as you leave my dr. pepper and monitor alone.

who do I sue? I was sooooooo hoping that train wreck would take hold and derail this all...

I often find myself asking the same question during discussions like these. Certain vocal opponents of abortion seem much, much more concerned about simply outlawing abortion rather than take any concrete, proactive steps to decreasing the unwanted pregnancy rate in the first place. Its always easier to call your opponents morally-bankrupt baby killers and say "don't do this" than it is to address the many roots of an epidemic - problems that are going to take money and a big change in attitude towards women's health and reproductive rights to solve, especially on the part of legislators that are overwhelmingly male.

Cory: abortion is legal in this country until the very day of birth. Congress passed a law banning late term abortion except when the life of the mother was threatened, but because it didn't have the health provision, despite numerous doctors' testimony that late term abortion was never necessary for the health of the mother, and that there were safer methods that would safe the life of both.

No, Chip, I'm saying if a woman goes in to have her baby, which would otherwise be viable, killed, why not just remove the baby without killing it, place it in an incubator like any other premie and give it up for adoption?

Oh, it's not alive because it's inside the mother? So what's all that kicking, and heartbeating, and eating? Sounds like life to me.

And all of you...what if tomorrow science concluded 100% that life begins in the first trimester? Would you then look back and the millions of aborted fetuses that you advocated and cry? Or would you just throw your arms up and shrug?


And we go round again....

This thread isn't for the participants because we will never be convinced by the other side. This thread is for the observers, the ones who haven't made up their minds.

For you, a guide.

Having no real leg to stand on the Left resorts to the following tactics.
1. Start focusing on other issues
ex: I asked why a rapist gets benefit of the doubt before being put to death and babies don't. People in this thread chose to focus on whether or not rape was a capital offense rather than the fact that convicted criminals get the shadow of a doubt test before being put to death. Why? Because they don't want to face that arguement head on.

2. Focus on definitions.
ex: The repeated insistance that it's not a child, it's a fetus. Well when does a fetus become a child? After it starts breathing? After it's head leaves the birth canal? After the cord is cut? They don't want to face the real issue. They don't want to answer the question: What changes in the five seconds from before and after the cutting of the cord?

If the baby could otherwise be removed from the mother and live, why kill it?

3. Marginalize men.
ex: If you don't have a womb-your position isn't valid. Men just want to control women. Women can't really say no because men sneak up on you when you're sleeping. etc.

And then we go round again. Go back, look at the posts. Look at the nitpicking rebuttals of some of my posts, look carefully at what is being said in here. Look at those photos in the beginning, watch the videos.

If there is another way, that doesn't involve killing the unborn, or the partially born, why aren't we taking it?

Yes, I appeal to emotion as well as logic because when it comes to children, there is no way for a feeling person, especially a parent, to separate the two.

-Kiamat Dusk

And that's the point isn't it? You believe a fetus is a child and it's murder. I don't.

But you're for the Government deciding what is right for an individual woman, and I'm for an individual woman deciding what is right for herself.

I think he means he is for the government deciding what is right for the child, because the child can't speak for herself. The female child is at least as important as a grown female to the government. The government protects weaker people from stronger people all the time, and in so doing denies privacy rights to the stronger person.

I thought the point of your post was to make a little puzzle of Christian values.

I don't assume to speak for all Christians, but I would think Christians generally would agree with my point of view over yours.

That's why I posted my reply, to help you understand the Christian view, at least from my perspective.

Again, I don't presume to speak for anyone other than myself.

From a Biblical perspective women do suffer punishment for acts involving a man, such as prostitution or infidelity. Just because a man is equally guilty doesn't dissolve the woman's responsibility. Both are equally responsible for the crime.

It's not a child.

We should pay killers to stop killing people too, what a brainstorm! Imagine, we could end all crime by paying criminal to shop committing crime.

Go free market!

It's a human being at the earliest stages of development.

If the woman didn't want to abort she could carry the child to term and then give it up for adoption. If she chooses to abort for whatever reason, that's her choice and should remain so. Neither her or her fetus are property. Since I have absolutely no sentimental attachment to other people's offspring I'd personally prefer that my tax dollars not be spent on the incredibly expensive care of premature unwanted births. Abortion is cheaper and it has the added benefit of not adding to the world's population. We don't adequately provide medical care and education for the already living as it is.

Finally, you have said something I agree with. And since no one can own her or the fetus, one has the right over the other. The parents don't own their children, they raise them.

Thank you for stating the obvious, no one owns the fetus, she is her own person.

It's not a person.

It's a human being at the earliest stages of development.

It's no more a human being than a strand of my hair is a human being.

Does she have the same DNA as the mother? Like a strand of hair does? If not, she is, in fact, a human being. Look up the definition of "human being", or shall I?

Is anyone here, seriously, in favor of more abortions taking place? If not, stop with the ridiculous rhetoric and start supporting greater access to birth control. It's much more effective than punishing doctors.

You know, occasionally it is possible that an argument from a position of reason or real data will change someone's mind and could make the world a little bit better. Don't give up just because extremists on both sides continue to make fools of themselves. Be a zealot for moderation!

No, the fetus is not a person until it can exist outside the womb on its own. Until then it's a part of the woman's body which she can choose to have removed.

So in your opinion --something with the exact same DNA as me isn't to be considered a human being?

who here is advocating more abortions?

That position will come in handy when we create the clone armies.

Begun the forum war has.

Here's the deal: one group of people think abortions should be illegal. The other group believes abortion should be legal because the alternative is that a woman who is determined to have an abortion will seek one out regardless.

To the group who thinks abortion should be illegal: don't have them and don't bitch about the people who feel the need to have abortions for whatever reason. Until you have walked in their shoes, you really should not judge them.

To the group who thinks abortion should be legal: push for more education, better health care, counseling, and better access to birth control, and for keeping abortion safe and legal.

The two sides will most likely never agree. All we're doing here is talking in circles. No one is advocating more abortions. No one here is for forcing women to have abortions against their will.