Calling for a Boycott of the fundamentalist State of South Dakota
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Toni Bentham
M2 Fashion Editor
Join date: 26 Jan 2006
Posts: 560
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03-21-2006 06:18
From: Cristiano Midnight Someone who practices a "lifestyle" that promotes the rape and degradation of women certainly can be questioned on those activities and beliefs. To call what Kiamat said as "hate" against Magnum is patently ridiculous. Yes, exactly right Cristiano. In fact, those of us who have experienced hate in real life because of who we are might even find it offensive. From: someone Kiamat's questions of Magnum are perfectly valid. Of course it is - even questioning a person's RL religion is valid. As long as you don't discriminate against all of those who practice it, making valid, logical points about a religion or any other choice is not hateful. From: someone Claiming it somehow rises to the level of "hate" or a hate crime is the dangerous line to cross, because it diminishes the validity of such things - including the very situation you described. Magnum can role play whatever he wants, in SL and in RL - it doesn't mean he or anyone else is immune to criticism for their statements and choices. Again, nobody is ever safe from criticisim for any choices they make. It's when you hate them just because of their choices, or criticize things that aren't choises, that you enter the realm of bigotry. From: Kendra Bancroft Except that lifestyle Goreans have very many Free Women and Male Slaves. The Gorean sect of the BDSM community isn't that different from other BDSM communities except that it is somewhat colored by those horrible John Norman novels.
Whether it also has Free Women and male slaves or not, it still, by having female slaves, promotes the degredation of women, as Cristiano wrote.
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Kendra Bancroft
Rhine Maiden
Join date: 17 Jun 2004
Posts: 5,813
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03-21-2006 06:31
From: Toni Bentham Yes, exactly right Cristiano. In fact, those of us who have experienced hate in real life because of who we are might even find it offensive.
Of course it is - even questioning a person's RL religion is valid. As long as you don't discriminate against all of those who practice it, making valid, logical points about a religion or any other choice is not hateful.
Again, nobody is ever safe from criticisim for any choices they make. It's when you hate them just because of their choices, or criticize things that aren't choises, that you enter the realm of bigotry.
Whether it also has Free Women and male slaves or not, it still, by having female slaves, promotes the degredation of women, as Cristiano wrote. He called lifestyle Goreans rapists. That's not simply questioning or criticising something. Cristiano is criticizing. YOU are criticizing. That's fine. Labeling an entire group of people rapists is NOT fine. |
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Toni Bentham
M2 Fashion Editor
Join date: 26 Jan 2006
Posts: 560
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03-21-2006 06:40
From: Kendra Bancroft Labeling an entire group of people rapists is NOT fine. I don't believe Kiamat or Cristiano ever wrote exactly that all Goreans were rapists. I think Kiamat referred to the Gorean lifestyle and rape in the same post, but to say that because of that he was spilling some hate-filed vitriolle is a little extreme. I think you're taking what he actually wrote to the extreme and criticizing that. Common debate tactic, but doesn't really fly with me, sorry.
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Kendra Bancroft
Rhine Maiden
Join date: 17 Jun 2004
Posts: 5,813
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03-21-2006 06:44
From: Toni Bentham I don't believe Cristiano ever wrote exactly that all Goreans were necessarily rapists. I think you're taking what he actually wrote to the extreme and criticizing that. Common debate tactic, but doesn't really fly with me, sorry.
What Cristiano actually wrote was: . From: Kiamat Dusk Speaking of rape...tell me again what you Goreans do to our earth women after you've kidnapped them?
-Kiamat Dusk |
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Kendra Bancroft
Rhine Maiden
Join date: 17 Jun 2004
Posts: 5,813
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03-21-2006 06:47
From: Toni Bentham Common debate tactic, but doesn't really fly with me, sorry. I don't particularly care ::  hrug:::: |
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Toni Bentham
M2 Fashion Editor
Join date: 26 Jan 2006
Posts: 560
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03-21-2006 06:49
From: Kendra Bancroft I don't particularly care :: hrug:::: Again, neither Kiamat nor Cristiano ever wrote exactly that all Goreans were rapists. He may have implied it through a rhetorical question in your mind, but he did not write it, and you should respond to what he wrote.
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Kendra Bancroft
Rhine Maiden
Join date: 17 Jun 2004
Posts: 5,813
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03-21-2006 06:51
From: Toni Bentham you have to respond to what he wrote. Yes, Mistress /nadu |
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Kiari LeFay
Lemon Flavored Fish Treat
Join date: 27 Jan 2003
Posts: 223
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03-21-2006 06:53
IF you read the books, and IF Goreans are trying to mimic them fully... then yes, rape is enshrined in the lifestyle. Mind you, in the Gor viewpoint it does seem that no woman is -ever- unwilling, and they 'want' to be raped. But those who RP Goreans in SL don't seem to be interested in anything non-consentual... BUT... technically, that's what the books describe.
Mind you, if we continue on in that vein, I've got a few things to accuse Christians of because, while modern Christians don't commit a shopping list of atrocities... they are commited in the first big chunk of their holy book they try to live their life by, and according to the logic of some on this board, it's impossible to agree with the principles of a book without following every single action in it. wheee... let's carry that logic on to other books shall we?
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Kendra Bancroft
Rhine Maiden
Join date: 17 Jun 2004
Posts: 5,813
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03-21-2006 06:55
From: Kiari LeFay IF you read the books, and IF Goreans are trying to mimic them fully... then yes, rape is enshrined in the lifestyle. Mind you, in the Gor viewpoint it does seem that no woman is -ever- unwilling, and they 'want' to be raped. But those who RP Goreans in SL don't seem to be interested in anything non-consentual... BUT... technically, that's what the books describe.
Mind you, if we continue on in that vein, I've got a few things to accuse Christians of because, while modern Christians don't commit a shopping list of atrocities... they are commited in the first big chunk of their holy book they try to live their life by, and according to the logic of some on this board, it's impossible to agree with the principles of a book without following every single action in it. wheee... let's carry that logic on to other books shall we? Dear God! My favorite novel is "Frankenstein"!!!  |
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Kiamat Dusk
Protest Warrior
Join date: 30 Sep 2004
Posts: 1,525
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03-21-2006 06:57
From: Kendra Bancroft Would beating up someone because they have a fetish be considered a "hate-crime"?
Though many in the BDSM community look cross-eyed at people who engage in Gorean roleplay it's no stranger than RL furries or shoe fetishists or crossdressers.
People STILL make light of transsexuals getting KILLED for fuck's sake. It's not even considered bad manners to make fun of TVs and TSs on television or movies.
Don't preach to me about making "light of serious issues". The line you're drawing, yourself, is a dangerous line. The minute you decide someone is a dumbass for pursuing a "lifestyle choice" you are starting down a the road of hate and intolerance.
That's exactly the attitude that causes "hate crimes". I'm gonna tuck this lil gem away for the next time you start making light of Christian beliefs. Not that it would ever happen, cuz that would be oh so hypocritical of you.  -Kiamat Dusk PS: We've turned this into another Gorean thread-how hot is that!? 
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"My pain is constant and sharp and I do not hope for a better world for anyone. In fact I want my pain to be inflicted on others. I want no one to escape." -Bret Easton Ellis 'American Psycho' "Anger is a gift." -RATM "Freedom" From: Vares Solvang Eat me, you vile waste of food. (Can you spot the irony?) http://writing.com/authors/suffer
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Kiamat Dusk
Protest Warrior
Join date: 30 Sep 2004
Posts: 1,525
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03-21-2006 07:03
From: Lucifer Baphomet Well said Kendra, and I'd like to add just because someone follows a lifestyle in second life that they maybe dont follow in real life (possibly due to fear of assault or censure) doesnt necessarily make it "fake", "bullshit", or whatever other term Eboni would like to throw at it. And Eboni, comparing gorean lifestylers to historical slavery is nonsense, slaves in this sense can walk anytime without reprecussion, as its a consensual arrangement.. unlike real slavery, and why single Gor out, as many D/s styles involve a master/slave relationship.
For the record, I'm not Gorean, or D/s, I just suport peoples right to their lifestyle choices. OMG! This is too funny! These are SL forums! We're talking about his Second Lifestyle. NEWSFLASH: Magnum Serpentine is not his real name! :facepalm: And no, Kendra, this is not my "some of my best friends are..." defense. I happen to be a RL M/s lifestyler whose ideals are very close to the Gorean idealogy save for the theory that women are inherently enthralled to men or must fit into prescribed gender roles. No one is calling Magnum a RL rapist, because no one knows about Magnum's RL proclivities. We're talking about his Second Lifestyle which, yes boys and girls, includes rape as a perfectly normal and acceptable thing. Geez. I'm gonna have to go back to marking sarcastic paragraphs. -Kiamat Dusk
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"My pain is constant and sharp and I do not hope for a better world for anyone. In fact I want my pain to be inflicted on others. I want no one to escape." -Bret Easton Ellis 'American Psycho' "Anger is a gift." -RATM "Freedom" From: Vares Solvang Eat me, you vile waste of food. (Can you spot the irony?) http://writing.com/authors/suffer
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Kendra Bancroft
Rhine Maiden
Join date: 17 Jun 2004
Posts: 5,813
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03-21-2006 07:03
From: Kiamat Dusk I'm gonna tuck this lil gem away for the next time you start making light of Christian beliefs. Not that it would ever happen, cuz that would be oh so hypocritical of you. -Kiamat Dusk PS: We've turned this into another Gorean thread-how hot is that!? As far as I know, nobody has ever actually been killed for not being Gorean. |
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Kendra Bancroft
Rhine Maiden
Join date: 17 Jun 2004
Posts: 5,813
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03-21-2006 07:06
From: Kiamat Dusk OMG! This is too funny! These are SL forums! We're talking about his Second Lifestyle. NEWSFLASH: Magnum Serpentine is not his real name! :facepalm:
And no, Kendra, this is not my "some of my best friends are..." defense. I happen to be a RL M/s lifestyler whose ideals are very close to the Gorean idealogy save for the theory that women are inherently enthralled to men or must fit into prescribed gender roles.
No one is calling Magnum a RL rapist, because no one knows about Magnum's RL proclivities. We're talking about his Second Lifestyle which, yes boys and girls, includes rape as a perfectly normal and acceptable thing. Geez. I'm gonna have to go back to marking sarcastic paragraphs.
-Kiamat Dusk Then why did you bring SL fantasy garbage to an RL discussion. For the record, I happen to be an RL sub lifestyler so it's not exactly like I'm coming out of this from nowhere. |
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Kendra Bancroft
Rhine Maiden
Join date: 17 Jun 2004
Posts: 5,813
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03-21-2006 07:08
From: Kiamat Dusk We're talking about his Second Lifestyle which, yes boys and girls, includes rape as a perfectly normal and acceptable thing. Geez. I'm gonna have to go back to marking sarcastic paragraphs.
-Kiamat Dusk Rape fantasy in SL is purely voluntary. There is absolutely no way to rape someone in SL. |
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Kendra Bancroft
Rhine Maiden
Join date: 17 Jun 2004
Posts: 5,813
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03-21-2006 07:09
From: Kiamat Dusk NEWSFLASH: Magnum Serpentine is not his real name! :facepalm: You don't know that. He could easily have Magnum Serpentine as his real legal name. |
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Kiamat Dusk
Protest Warrior
Join date: 30 Sep 2004
Posts: 1,525
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03-21-2006 07:14
From: Kendra Bancroft Then why did you bring SL fantasy garbage to an RL discussion. For the record, I happen to be an RL sub lifestyler so it's not exactly like I'm coming out of this from nowhere. You really aren't getting this are you? I mean at first I just thought you were basking in hyperbole for the sheer joy of it but you really don't get it. Ok..look back at my post. See how I said things like "Nice to see Goreans getting involved i earth politics.." as if they weren't really from earth? Like I was talking to people from another planet? Or the part about "what do you do with our earth women after you kidnap them?" Again, I'm speaking like I'm talking to an alien from another planet. Thus, most rational people would catch what I thought was the pretty clear sarcasm throughout the statement. I was razzing Maggie and Brenda for getting into Gorean RP mode in a thread about a very serious RL topic. In short-he brought "SL fantasy garbage to a RL discussion" and I was calling him and Brenda on it. Get it now? I was following along...pretending like they were aliens...like we were all suddenly in the books? Oh, nevermind. Let me state that I do not now nor have I ever believed that the person posting as Magnum Serpentine is, was, or ever will be a rapist. Nor do I believe such of anyone RPing Gor online or who are RL Gorean lifestylers. Better? Sheesh. -Kiamat Dusk
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"My pain is constant and sharp and I do not hope for a better world for anyone. In fact I want my pain to be inflicted on others. I want no one to escape." -Bret Easton Ellis 'American Psycho' "Anger is a gift." -RATM "Freedom" From: Vares Solvang Eat me, you vile waste of food. (Can you spot the irony?) http://writing.com/authors/suffer
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Kendra Bancroft
Rhine Maiden
Join date: 17 Jun 2004
Posts: 5,813
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03-21-2006 07:16
From: Kiamat Dusk , nevermind. Let me state that I do not now nor have I ever believed that the person posting as Magnum Serpentine is, was, or ever will be a rapist. Nor do I believe such of anyone RPing Gor online or who are RL Gorean lifestylers.
Better?
Sheesh.
-Kiamat Dusk yes --much better. was that so hard? |
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Kiamat Dusk
Protest Warrior
Join date: 30 Sep 2004
Posts: 1,525
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03-21-2006 07:18
From: Kendra Bancroft yes --much better.
was that so hard? Actually, that's good. The fact that I had to break it down that far says much more about your tactics and much more clearly than I could have ever done on my own. Oh, and I'm a RL M/s lifestyler. So what? Hmmm...I wonder if you know a friend of mine who lives in Manhattan... He says the NY public scene is pretty lame. -Kiamat Dusk
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"My pain is constant and sharp and I do not hope for a better world for anyone. In fact I want my pain to be inflicted on others. I want no one to escape." -Bret Easton Ellis 'American Psycho' "Anger is a gift." -RATM "Freedom" From: Vares Solvang Eat me, you vile waste of food. (Can you spot the irony?) http://writing.com/authors/suffer
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Taco Rubio
also quite creepy
Join date: 15 Feb 2004
Posts: 3,349
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03-21-2006 07:22
You two are so obviously >< close to making out.
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Toni Bentham
M2 Fashion Editor
Join date: 26 Jan 2006
Posts: 560
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03-21-2006 07:23
From: Kendra Bancroft was that so hard? Probably not, since it was just explaining the initial post.
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Kendra Bancroft
Rhine Maiden
Join date: 17 Jun 2004
Posts: 5,813
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03-21-2006 07:26
From: Kiamat Dusk Actually, that's good. The fact that I had to break it down that far says much more about your tactics and much more clearly than I could have ever done on my own.
Oh, and I'm a RL M/s lifestyler. So what? Hmmm...I wonder if you know a friend of mine who lives in Manhattan... He says the NY public seen is pretty lame.
-Kiamat Dusk NY scene lame right now? That's an understatement. It says nothing about my "tactics" as I don't use "tactics". I speak from my heart --whether I misinterpret what you're saying or not has nothing to with any agenda you seem to think I might have. |
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Kendra Bancroft
Rhine Maiden
Join date: 17 Jun 2004
Posts: 5,813
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03-21-2006 07:26
From: Toni Bentham Probably not, since it was just explaining the initial post. well aren't you just a little precious. |
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Sally Rosebud
the girl next door
Join date: 3 May 2005
Posts: 2,505
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03-21-2006 07:30
From: Taco Rubio You two are so obviously >< close to making out. Hey, let me know when that starts, k? I'll bring the drinks
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Kendra Bancroft
Rhine Maiden
Join date: 17 Jun 2004
Posts: 5,813
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03-21-2006 07:31
From: Sally Rosebud Hey, let me know when that starts, k? I'll bring the drinks If it does, I'm using my "safeword" the minute he starts spewing RW talking-points. |
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Cristiano Midnight
Evil Snapshot Baron
Join date: 17 May 2003
Posts: 8,616
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03-21-2006 07:35
From: Kendra Bancroft
It says nothing about my "tactics" as I don't use "tactics". I speak from my heart --whether I misinterpret what you're saying or not has nothing to with any agenda you seem to think I might have.
Damn you and your "speaking from the heart" tactics! It is just part of your agenda to enslave me.
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