Second Life Forums Archive - He's actually suing LL?!?

Siobhan Taylor

Nemesis

Join date: 13 Aug 2003

Posts: 5,476

05-08-2006 15:45

It's not so much a case of breaking the TOS. He bypassed a weak security model in order to aquire services he was not entitled to. Now, I'm no lawyer, but that sounds like a breach of the DMCA to me.

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Ricky Zamboni

Private citizen

Join date: 4 Jun 2004

Posts: 1,080

05-08-2006 15:51

From: Siobhan Taylor

It's not so much a case of breaking the TOS. He bypassed a weak security model in order to aquire services he was not entitled to. Now, I'm no lawyer, but that sounds like a breach of the DMCA to me.

Doesn't that only apply to copyright infringement? i.e. the "C" in DMCA? Otherwise he'd need to be charged criminally for violating some computer crime statute or other.

Cheyenne Marquez

Registered User

Join date: 19 Sep 2005

Posts: 940

05-08-2006 15:54

From: katykiwi Moonflower

The TOS is not untouchable legally; the real question is whether the case is worth pursuing.

The TOS is a binding contract between you and LL.

As such, it is virtually untouchable legally.

Certainly, U.S law being what it is, anyone can bring suit in any matter, and in so doing, one can argue the wording of any contract with a play on words. But the merits and worth of the contract are certainly binding, and all things remaining equal, legally untouchable.

Ricky Zamboni

Private citizen

Join date: 4 Jun 2004

Posts: 1,080

05-08-2006 15:56

From: Cheyenne Marquez

The TOS is a binding contract between you and LL.

As such, it is virtually untouchable legally.

Certainly one can argue the wording of that contract with a play on words, but the merits and worth of the contract are certainly binding, and all things remaining equal, legally untouchable.

Not true. Contracts are ruled to have unenforceable clauses all the time. Simply because something is a "legal document" doesn't make it unassailable.

Almarea Lumiere

Registered User

Join date: 6 May 2004

Posts: 258

05-08-2006 16:04

From: Cheyenne Marquez

As such, it is virtually untouchable legally.

How do you know this?

Cheyenne Marquez

Registered User

Join date: 19 Sep 2005

Posts: 940

05-08-2006 16:07

From: Ricky Zamboni

Contracts are ruled to have unenforceable clauses all the time.

These are the exception, not the rule. I was speaking about the norm as they apply to honestly drawn contracts (which I presume the TOS is), and how the courts view these as legally binding contracts. Not the "perception of evil" inherent in some contracts, which I've no doubt are plentiful.

FlipperPA Peregrine

Magically Delicious!

Join date: 14 Nov 2003

Posts: 3,703

05-08-2006 16:08

Ha, an injury lawyer from the Philadelphia area. There are more attorneys per capita in the Philadelphia area than anywhere else on earth. No wonder some of them are so desperate. This one doesn't have a prayed. He hacked a URL. If anything, LL should be going after him for hacking systems (albeit, a weak system).

Regards,

-Flip

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Cheyenne Marquez

Registered User

Join date: 19 Sep 2005

Posts: 940

05-08-2006 16:10

From: Almarea Lumiere

How do you know this?

An honest and clearly written contract with no evil underlying motive (which I presume the TOS is) is a legally binding document and any court is bound to uphold it, is it not?

Or am I missing something here lol

Travis Lambert

White dog, red collar

Join date: 3 Jun 2004

Posts: 2,819

05-08-2006 16:23

From: Ricky Zamboni

Doesn't that only apply to copyright infringement? i.e. the "C" in DMCA? Otherwise he'd need to be charged criminally for violating some computer crime statute or other.

I seem to remember a case a few years back where some students "Hacked" into a college enrollment system to find out whether they had been accepted to university yet. I wish I could find the link to it.

They "hacked" the system by changing the URL so they could look up a specific name (theirs) on the acceptance page.

If I remember right, not only were these students expelled from the university for "hacking", but criminal charges were filed.

Frankly, I'm surprised Linden Labs hasn't filed criminal charges against Marc Bragg for "hacking" into their system.

Edit: Here's a blog link to it

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Beryl Greenacre

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Join date: 24 Jun 2003

Posts: 1,312

05-08-2006 16:26

From: Moonshine Herbst

They'll settle.

I concur.

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Khamon Fate

fategardens.net

Join date: 21 Nov 2003

Posts: 4,177

05-08-2006 16:30

From: Beryl Greenacre

I concur.

I like potatos too.

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Jennyfur Peregrine

Whatever

Join date: 24 Dec 2003

Posts: 1,151

05-08-2006 16:36

I can't wait to see this one get laughed out of the courts.

Someone should sue him for being a raving f&cktardapus

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Ananda Sandgrain

+0-

Join date: 16 May 2003

Posts: 1,951

05-08-2006 16:37

From: Beryl Greenacre

I concur.

How much is he suing for? "In the thousands." I agree then, the chances are good they would just pay up the protection money rather than risk legal fees many times the amount of the suit.

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Turbo Hand

Registered User

Join date: 19 Feb 2006

Posts: 102

05-08-2006 16:47

I am a psychic. I can predict the next PR NewsWire story.

Woman leaves front door unlocked.

Thief rents money to buy a U-Haul to steal from her home.

Woman calls police, recovers her belongings.

Thief sues for cost of U-Haul.

Cross Lament

Loose-brained Vixen

Join date: 20 Mar 2004

Posts: 1,115

05-08-2006 16:52

From: Cheyenne Marquez

An honest and clearly written contract with no evil underlying motive (which I presume the TOS is) is a legally binding document and any court is bound to uphold it, is it not?

Or am I missing something here lol

No part of a contract that violates the law is binding. I could sign a contract with you for me to kill someone on your behalf, but you could not sue me for breach of contract for not upholding my side of the deal if I didn't carry out the killing.

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Yumi Murakami

DoIt!AttachTheEarOfACat!

Join date: 27 Sep 2005

Posts: 6,860

05-08-2006 17:10

From: Cross Lament

No part of a contract that violates the law is binding. I could sign a contract with you for me to kill someone on your behalf, but you could not sue me for breach of contract for not upholding my side of the deal if I didn't carry out the killing.

Yes. I suspect he'll either argue that the TOS is an illegal contract (possibly lack of consideration), or he'll argue that by clicking the "buy now" button he entered into an additional contract which supersedes the TOS.

I don't think either of those are right myself, btw

nimrod Yaffle

Cavemen are people too...

Join date: 15 Nov 2004

Posts: 3,146

05-08-2006 17:20

From: Turbo Hand

I am a psychic. I can predict the next PR NewsWire story.

Woman leaves front door unlocked.

Thief rents money to buy a U-Haul to steal from her home.

Woman calls police, recovers her belongings.

Thief sues for cost of U-Haul.

Hah, nice one.

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-James Baldwin

Cheyenne Marquez

Registered User

Join date: 19 Sep 2005

Posts: 940

05-08-2006 18:20

From: Cross Lament

No part of a contract that violates the law is binding. I could sign a contract with you for me to kill someone on your behalf, but you could not sue me for breach of contract for not upholding my side of the deal if I didn't carry out the killing.

Who said anything about contracts that violate law?

What about this post didn't you understand?

From: Cheyenne Marquez

An honest and clearly written contract with no evil underlying motive (which I presume the TOS is) is a legally binding document and any court is bound to uphold it, is it not?

Or am I missing something here lol

If you're going to directly quote someone and then offer a point in disagreement, the least you can do is read the post you quoted.

Dyne Talamasca

Noneuclidean Love Polygon

Join date: 9 Oct 2005

Posts: 436

05-08-2006 18:28

From: someone

Actually, he deals with:

Bankruptcy Law, Business Law, Civil Rights Law, Computer & Technology Law, Constitutional Law, Construction Law, Consumer Law, Credit, Debt and Collections Law, Criminal Law, Disability Discrimination Law (ADA), Drunk Driving & DUI Law, Family Law, Divorce, Child Custody and Adoption, Federal Tort Claims Act Litigation, General Civil Litigation, Insurance Law, Intellectual Property, International Law, Juvenile Dependency, Labor and Employment Law, Legal Malpractice Law, Medical Malpractice Law, Other Discrimination Law (Age, Race, Sex, Gender), Personal Injury Law and Tort Law, Probate, Trusts, Wills & Estates, Products Liability, Real Estate and Real Property , Sexual Harassment Law, Social Security Law, Workers' Compensation Law

... TV/VCR Repair, child day care, medical/dental consulting ...

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Plonk

Dyne Talamasca

Noneuclidean Love Polygon

Join date: 9 Oct 2005

Posts: 436

05-08-2006 18:29

From: Cheyenne Marquez

What about this post didn't you understand?

The part where you assume that an honest, clear contract with no evil motive is automatically also a legal one?

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Dyne Talamasca - I hate the word "bling".

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Plonk

Obic Malaprop

Registered User

Join date: 19 Sep 2005

Posts: 122

05-08-2006 18:40

Well...

let's make some assuptions:

lets say you are about to buy a whole bunch of land in Sl, you want to be a land baron, you buy a few thousand dollars of linden..

you start investigating austioned sims...

you somehow stumble on a bug that's lets yo buy sims really cheap...

you know it's wrong but figure, meh worse that'll happen is LL will make me pay full price which you were gonna do anyways

next day you can't log in and LL won't respond to you...

...now what happend to the several thousand dollars of Linden you bought?

I'm not defending him, and I'm not sayiong that's what happened, but it does raise questions... Could LL ban Ansche and take over all her land and linden on a whim because it says they can in the TOS?

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Siggy Romulus

DILLIGAF

Join date: 22 Sep 2003

Posts: 5,711

05-08-2006 18:43

From: Dyne Talamasca

... TV/VCR Repair, child day care, medical/dental consulting ...

......and alligators castrated, for a nominal fee.

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Cheyenne Marquez

Registered User

Join date: 19 Sep 2005

Posts: 940

05-08-2006 18:47

From: Dyne Talamasca

The part where you assume that an honest, clear contract with no evil motive is automatically also a legal one?

I assumed nothing. The only one making any assumptions here is you by assuming I said anything regarding any honest and clearly written contract with no evil motive being "automatically" legal.

I suggest you read that post yet one more time.

Merlyn Bailly

owner, AVALON GALLERIA

Join date: 7 Sep 2005

Posts: 576

05-08-2006 18:52

From: nimrod Yaffle

What he did was look at the auction ID and put it at the end of the regular auction URL, so he got access to the auction before it was actually started by LL. It was not on the main auction page because a linden had not set it up yet, so it was 0.00 min price.

So he HACKED the auction page, and now has the brass b*lls to claim that HIS FRAUDULENT HACK was a valid sale? ROFLMAO!!!

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Dale Glass

Evil Scripter

Join date: 12 Feb 2006

Posts: 252

05-08-2006 18:57

From: Obic Malaprop

I'm not defending him, and I'm not sayiong that's what happened, but it does raise questions... Could LL ban Ansche and take over all her land and linden on a whim because it says they can in the TOS?

Sure they could. They in fact did ban her for a while due to lack of payment.

About this specific issue: This IMO is something like coming to an auction house, finding the required papers to acquire land ownership lying in an unsecured cabinet, and using that to get yourself a plot. I bet you'd be banned for life for something like that from the place, and I doubt it'd work in court either.

He's actually suing LL?!?
Siobhan Taylor Nemesis Join date: 13 Aug 2003 Posts: 5,476	05-08-2006 15:45 It's not so much a case of breaking the TOS. He bypassed a weak security model in order to aquire services he was not entitled to. Now, I'm no lawyer, but that sounds like a breach of the DMCA to me. _____________________ http://siobhantaylor.wordpress.com/
Ricky Zamboni Private citizen Join date: 4 Jun 2004 Posts: 1,080	05-08-2006 15:51 From: Siobhan Taylor It's not so much a case of breaking the TOS. He bypassed a weak security model in order to aquire services he was not entitled to. Now, I'm no lawyer, but that sounds like a breach of the DMCA to me. Doesn't that only apply to copyright infringement? i.e. the "C" in DMCA? Otherwise he'd need to be charged criminally for violating some computer crime statute or other.
Cheyenne Marquez Registered User Join date: 19 Sep 2005 Posts: 940	05-08-2006 15:54 From: katykiwi Moonflower The TOS is not untouchable legally; the real question is whether the case is worth pursuing. The TOS is a binding contract between you and LL. As such, it is virtually untouchable legally. Certainly, U.S law being what it is, anyone can bring suit in any matter, and in so doing, one can argue the wording of any contract with a play on words. But the merits and worth of the contract are certainly binding, and all things remaining equal, legally untouchable.
Ricky Zamboni Private citizen Join date: 4 Jun 2004 Posts: 1,080	05-08-2006 15:56 From: Cheyenne Marquez The TOS is a binding contract between you and LL. As such, it is virtually untouchable legally. Certainly one can argue the wording of that contract with a play on words, but the merits and worth of the contract are certainly binding, and all things remaining equal, legally untouchable. Not true. Contracts are ruled to have unenforceable clauses all the time. Simply because something is a "legal document" doesn't make it unassailable.
Almarea Lumiere Registered User Join date: 6 May 2004 Posts: 258	05-08-2006 16:04 From: Cheyenne Marquez As such, it is virtually untouchable legally. How do you know this?
Cheyenne Marquez Registered User Join date: 19 Sep 2005 Posts: 940	05-08-2006 16:07 From: Ricky Zamboni Contracts are ruled to have unenforceable clauses all the time. These are the exception, not the rule. I was speaking about the norm as they apply to honestly drawn contracts (which I presume the TOS is), and how the courts view these as legally binding contracts. Not the "perception of evil" inherent in some contracts, which I've no doubt are plentiful.
FlipperPA Peregrine Magically Delicious! Join date: 14 Nov 2003 Posts: 3,703	05-08-2006 16:08 Ha, an injury lawyer from the Philadelphia area. There are more attorneys per capita in the Philadelphia area than anywhere else on earth. No wonder some of them are so desperate. This one doesn't have a prayed. He hacked a URL. If anything, LL should be going after him for hacking systems (albeit, a weak system). Regards, -Flip _____________________ Peregrine Salon: www.PeregrineSalon.com - my consulting company Second Blogger: www.SecondBlogger.com - free, fully integrated Second Life blogging for all avatars!
Cheyenne Marquez Registered User Join date: 19 Sep 2005 Posts: 940	05-08-2006 16:10 From: Almarea Lumiere How do you know this? An honest and clearly written contract with no evil underlying motive (which I presume the TOS is) is a legally binding document and any court is bound to uphold it, is it not? Or am I missing something here lol
Travis Lambert White dog, red collar Join date: 3 Jun 2004 Posts: 2,819	05-08-2006 16:23 From: Ricky Zamboni Doesn't that only apply to copyright infringement? i.e. the "C" in DMCA? Otherwise he'd need to be charged criminally for violating some computer crime statute or other. I seem to remember a case a few years back where some students "Hacked" into a college enrollment system to find out whether they had been accepted to university yet. I wish I could find the link to it. They "hacked" the system by changing the URL so they could look up a specific name (theirs) on the acceptance page. If I remember right, not only were these students expelled from the university for "hacking", but criminal charges were filed. Frankly, I'm surprised Linden Labs hasn't filed criminal charges against Marc Bragg for "hacking" into their system. Edit: Here's a blog link to it _____________________ ------------------ The Shelter The Shelter is a non-profit recreation center for new residents, and supporters of new residents. Our goal is to provide a positive & supportive social environment for those looking for one in our overwhelming world.
Beryl Greenacre Big Scaredy-Baby Join date: 24 Jun 2003 Posts: 1,312	05-08-2006 16:26 From: Moonshine Herbst They'll settle. I concur. _____________________ Swell Second Life: Menswear by Beryl Greenacre Miramare 105, 82/ Aqua 192, 112/ Image Reflections Design, Freedom 121, 121
Khamon Fate fategardens.net Join date: 21 Nov 2003 Posts: 4,177	05-08-2006 16:30 From: Beryl Greenacre I concur. I like potatos too. _____________________ Visit the Fate Gardens Website @ fategardens.net
Jennyfur Peregrine Whatever Join date: 24 Dec 2003 Posts: 1,151	05-08-2006 16:36 I can't wait to see this one get laughed out of the courts. Someone should sue him for being a raving f&cktardapus _____________________ ~Jennyfur~ http://jennyfurperegrine.wordpress.com/ http://slcc2007.wordpress.com/ Deadly Nightshade Design Studio (Indigo 86,61) Jennyfur's Designs on SLBoutique
Ananda Sandgrain +0- Join date: 16 May 2003 Posts: 1,951	05-08-2006 16:37 From: Beryl Greenacre I concur. How much is he suing for? "In the thousands." I agree then, the chances are good they would just pay up the protection money rather than risk legal fees many times the amount of the suit. _____________________
Turbo Hand Registered User Join date: 19 Feb 2006 Posts: 102	05-08-2006 16:47 I am a psychic. I can predict the next PR NewsWire story. Woman leaves front door unlocked. Thief rents money to buy a U-Haul to steal from her home. Woman calls police, recovers her belongings. Thief sues for cost of U-Haul.
Cross Lament Loose-brained Vixen Join date: 20 Mar 2004 Posts: 1,115	05-08-2006 16:52 From: Cheyenne Marquez An honest and clearly written contract with no evil underlying motive (which I presume the TOS is) is a legally binding document and any court is bound to uphold it, is it not? Or am I missing something here lol No part of a contract that violates the law is binding. I could sign a contract with you for me to kill someone on your behalf, but you could not sue me for breach of contract for not upholding my side of the deal if I didn't carry out the killing. _____________________ - Making everyone's day just a little more surreal - Teeple Linden: "OK, where did the tentacled thing go while I was playing with my face?"
Yumi Murakami DoIt!AttachTheEarOfACat! Join date: 27 Sep 2005 Posts: 6,860	05-08-2006 17:10 From: Cross Lament No part of a contract that violates the law is binding. I could sign a contract with you for me to kill someone on your behalf, but you could not sue me for breach of contract for not upholding my side of the deal if I didn't carry out the killing. Yes. I suspect he'll either argue that the TOS is an illegal contract (possibly lack of consideration), or he'll argue that by clicking the "buy now" button he entered into an additional contract which supersedes the TOS. I don't think either of those are right myself, btw
nimrod Yaffle Cavemen are people too... Join date: 15 Nov 2004 Posts: 3,146	05-08-2006 17:20 From: Turbo Hand I am a psychic. I can predict the next PR NewsWire story. Woman leaves front door unlocked. Thief rents money to buy a U-Haul to steal from her home. Woman calls police, recovers her belongings. Thief sues for cost of U-Haul. Hah, nice one. _____________________ "People can cry much easier than they can change." -James Baldwin
Cheyenne Marquez Registered User Join date: 19 Sep 2005 Posts: 940	05-08-2006 18:20 From: Cross Lament No part of a contract that violates the law is binding. I could sign a contract with you for me to kill someone on your behalf, but you could not sue me for breach of contract for not upholding my side of the deal if I didn't carry out the killing. Who said anything about contracts that violate law? What about this post didn't you understand? From: Cheyenne Marquez An honest and clearly written contract with no evil underlying motive (which I presume the TOS is) is a legally binding document and any court is bound to uphold it, is it not? Or am I missing something here lol If you're going to directly quote someone and then offer a point in disagreement, the least you can do is read the post you quoted.
Dyne Talamasca Noneuclidean Love Polygon Join date: 9 Oct 2005 Posts: 436	05-08-2006 18:28 From: someone Actually, he deals with: Bankruptcy Law, Business Law, Civil Rights Law, Computer & Technology Law, Constitutional Law, Construction Law, Consumer Law, Credit, Debt and Collections Law, Criminal Law, Disability Discrimination Law (ADA), Drunk Driving & DUI Law, Family Law, Divorce, Child Custody and Adoption, Federal Tort Claims Act Litigation, General Civil Litigation, Insurance Law, Intellectual Property, International Law, Juvenile Dependency, Labor and Employment Law, Legal Malpractice Law, Medical Malpractice Law, Other Discrimination Law (Age, Race, Sex, Gender), Personal Injury Law and Tort Law, Probate, Trusts, Wills & Estates, Products Liability, Real Estate and Real Property , Sexual Harassment Law, Social Security Law, Workers' Compensation Law ... TV/VCR Repair, child day care, medical/dental consulting ... _____________________ Dyne Talamasca - I hate the word "bling". Miscellany on MySLShop.com, SLB, and SLEx Plonk
Dyne Talamasca Noneuclidean Love Polygon Join date: 9 Oct 2005 Posts: 436	05-08-2006 18:29 From: Cheyenne Marquez What about this post didn't you understand? The part where you assume that an honest, clear contract with no evil motive is automatically also a legal one? _____________________ Dyne Talamasca - I hate the word "bling". Miscellany on MySLShop.com, SLB, and SLEx Plonk
Obic Malaprop Registered User Join date: 19 Sep 2005 Posts: 122	05-08-2006 18:40 Well... let's make some assuptions: lets say you are about to buy a whole bunch of land in Sl, you want to be a land baron, you buy a few thousand dollars of linden.. you start investigating austioned sims... you somehow stumble on a bug that's lets yo buy sims really cheap... you know it's wrong but figure, meh worse that'll happen is LL will make me pay full price which you were gonna do anyways next day you can't log in and LL won't respond to you... ...now what happend to the several thousand dollars of Linden you bought? I'm not defending him, and I'm not sayiong that's what happened, but it does raise questions... Could LL ban Ansche and take over all her land and linden on a whim because it says they can in the TOS? _____________________ Proprietor of "Martini Malaprop's Literature" Fine literature and Poems in SL
Siggy Romulus DILLIGAF Join date: 22 Sep 2003 Posts: 5,711	05-08-2006 18:43 From: Dyne Talamasca ... TV/VCR Repair, child day care, medical/dental consulting ... ......and alligators castrated, for a nominal fee. _____________________ The Second Life forums are living proof as to why it's illegal for people to have sex with farm animals. From: Jesse Linden I, for one, am highly un-helped by this thread
Cheyenne Marquez Registered User Join date: 19 Sep 2005 Posts: 940	05-08-2006 18:47 From: Dyne Talamasca The part where you assume that an honest, clear contract with no evil motive is automatically also a legal one? I assumed nothing. The only one making any assumptions here is you by assuming I said anything regarding any honest and clearly written contract with no evil motive being "automatically" legal. I suggest you read that post yet one more time.
Merlyn Bailly owner, AVALON GALLERIA Join date: 7 Sep 2005 Posts: 576	05-08-2006 18:52 From: nimrod Yaffle What he did was look at the auction ID and put it at the end of the regular auction URL, so he got access to the auction before it was actually started by LL. It was not on the main auction page because a linden had not set it up yet, so it was 0.00 min price. So he HACKED the auction page, and now has the brass b*lls to claim that HIS FRAUDULENT HACK was a valid sale? ROFLMAO!!! _____________________ SL used to be a game -- now it's a corporate advertising/marketing platform.
Dale Glass Evil Scripter Join date: 12 Feb 2006 Posts: 252	05-08-2006 18:57 From: Obic Malaprop I'm not defending him, and I'm not sayiong that's what happened, but it does raise questions... Could LL ban Ansche and take over all her land and linden on a whim because it says they can in the TOS? Sure they could. They in fact did ban her for a while due to lack of payment. About this specific issue: This IMO is something like coming to an auction house, finding the required papers to acquire land ownership lying in an unsecured cabinet, and using that to get yourself a plot. I bet you'd be banned for life for something like that from the place, and I doubt it'd work in court either.

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He's actually suing LL?!?