200m BanLines!

A step in the right direction. Considering I don't fly around the mainland since P2P came about, I really don't care about access lines. I do agree that they should be considered different, so you can still fly at a reasonable height from a parcel you dont have access to.

Maybe that's still in the works.

But right now, some of the massive problems people have had with griefers has been solved. Some, not all, but again it's a step in the right direction.

In my mind, the need for another anti-griefer tool far surpasses the need for flying above blocked parcels. But that is only the opinion of a person who does not get from place to place by flying anymore. I visit very few places on the mainland anymore, and my time is spent on privately owned sims. But I know some of my friends on the mainland who benefit greatly from this.

Maybe the access lines will be lowered? We all know Linden Labs likes to implement things like this and fix it later

For aesthetics purposes, the "tape" is not visible until it's too late. You practially need to have your nose up to it before it's visible. Traveling at over 20m/sec which is slow for vehicles makes it a warning that can't be spotted in time.

We have no indicator on the mini-map of these zones where flying becomes dangerous.

So as landowner and vehicle owner my stand remains that we retain free flight altitudes and that preferably we get some indicator on the mini-map of problem zones.

Ban lines are not proof against griefers. It's easy for them to do their thing even from outside the ban lines. The real griefers know how to get jetpacks so height does not change anything.

The worst of the griefers can do even worse. They can grief you from outside the sim. They can be clear across the continent.

Ban / exclusion line up to 200 m above the ground level (so as not penalise folks living on 'high-altitude' land) is fine. Ban / exclusion lines up to 768+ m.... a bad idea because it impacts on people who want to fly their airplanes around SL.

Making the entire grid no-script and no-build would help with griefers too.

But that's as dumb an idea as this is.

The cure can be worse than the disease.

Ever mistakenly shoot a prim across a sim cause you forgot to put a number in? (example: Y=156.500 BUT you put in 15.650 by accident)? Same principle if you don't have return objects on your land can happen. So altitude has nothing to do with it if you can hockey puck something over to where you want it to go.

Silly focusing on altitude like it's the be all of ending the life of griefing as we know it.

there is no sane reason to lock down your property if you are not there. BUt then again, silly me for thinking everyone would use common courtesy when it's easier just to keep it on and say screw everyone.

I even seen land FOR SALE locked down. !!! WTF! *shakes her head* People are stupid. what can you say.

*huggles*
Sav

The idea of an earlier poster seemed to make the most sense; make the banning lines grouped by tiers.

1. "Normal Ban Lines" remain at the classic 40m above the ground level. This is for those than wish to make their property offlimits by the general population for whatever their reasons may be. This allows the general public to continue to use the airways without restriction.
   
2. "Not in Group Lines" are the green ones where you have to buy a pass to get in. Those remain at the classic 40m.
   
3. "Named Ban Lines" go up to 800m and only appear for those that have been specifically banned from a parcel of land. The list of banned people should also be expanded to 75 names from the current 50.
   

It is not a perfect solution, but it is better than having huge chunks of land & air blocked off to everybody up to 200m.

Perfect example, I own land in Epi and in the Sim next to, the land owner has turned on the "no access" ban lines for everybody not in theri group. This is not really a big deal since I can float at 50m above their land when flying along our border. Now, with the lines at 200m, if I dare cross our common border, even by accident, I'll get bounced half way across the sim. Not fun.

Maybe that could be a preference. For those interested in aesthetics, keep the lines the way they are now. For those interested in flying, change the setting and the ban lines become something more like landmarks...solid red and visible from a greater distance (1-2 sims away).

That's where I'm coming from.

Ban lines are not and never were an effective solution and they only create trouble for visitors and passersby who are not there to grief.

One does not have to be inside the protected area to be able to breach privacy. Just some camera calesthenics and you're in. Furthermore, there's wireframe mode, so nothing is hidden.

One does not even have to be in a sim to cause grief in that sim. Just launch your bomb from clear across the continent and let it do its dirty work when it arrives.

To: LL

What we need are not higher ban lines. What we need are:

1. Better enforcement tools. LL I believe has the knowhow to make a more effective AR system. I know that a lot of the enforcement results are being held confidential but this will, and does, create the impression that nothing is happening. When people believe nothing is happening, they report LESS because they believe thier reports are pointless.

So it's up to you, the service provider, to prove that you are doing something:

1.a. Better means of reporting griefers. As of now, push and orbit violations do not register on the AR.

1.b. I believe in the confidentiality of enforcement data, but at least post numbers. Tell us how many people were banned on a specific date. Leave off the names, leave off the details. Maybe just put in the general category like: griefing, behavior, etc).

Example of such a report:
June 21, 2006
Bans:
Griefing: 25
Inappropriate material: 3
Exploits: 2
Grid disruption: 1

2. You have to do something about that registration system. While it's brought in nice people and made alts easier to make for those who needed them, it's also brought in more griefers and made them impossible to protect against.

3. We need better protection from grief

3.a. An option that makes you immune to PUSH coming from other avatars or objects that are not yours when you are NOT on PVP land.

3.b. An option to ignore PUSH and orbiting that originate from outside your land or from others' objects inside the land (up to reasonable height). Thus giving default protection to all your visitors.

3.c. An option to block sounds that originate from outside your land.

Implement those protections and griefers would be lessened because then it will become no fun to grief. Last I remember, the Community Standards says "no" to griefing right?

I know. We need better griefing tools, period. But I think the change in the ban altitude will help a lot against griefers. I don't think that its going to put a stop to all of it, but I do think it'll help.

Take for instance, someone lives in a treehouse or a building... and a griefer drops some sim-staggering bombs at you. Naturally, you ban them. But with the ban height there is, that person comes back and floats comfortably 5m or so above your head, because you live in a tall building or whatnot. They listen as your friends, visitors, and/or customers grumble about the griefer, kicking up dirt and complaining. That fuels the griefers fire, and he happily sends down some more bombs, cages, whatever. But by raising the ban height, he can't hear the conversations anymore. Many times, that stops the griefing right now. It's a tactic I use with children a lot; you ignore them and they disappear.

But no, it isn't an answer to the massive problem that is griefing, and some will happily send cages and whatnot from 200m up still.

Getting LL to give mainland property owners any type of tool against griefers is a sloooooow, painfully slow process. And apparently, they seem to step on everyone's toes when they do come out with something.

I agree with eltee's ideas. That would solve many-a-problem

Now you're talking, Freyr. That's something just about every pilot would *love* to have. I sure would.

I’m jumping into the thread a bit late and don’t have the time or inclination to read through the whole thing. I did want to say, though, as a flyer (and land owner), I’d rather bounce of off ban lines than be ejected out of the vehicle.

I think land owners should be able to have multiple (2 or 3 or so) ban zones for their property. For each ban zone, the bottom would be anywhere from 0 to 767 and the top would be anywhere from one meter above that to 768.

I envision that the typical usage of this would be that someone would have a store on the ground inside one ban zone that allowed anyone access except those on the ban list. Also, they would have a skybox inside another ban zone that denied everyone access except those on an access list. The rest of the airspace would be open.

The ban zone around the skybox is kind of like building invisi-prims all around it, but without wasting the prims. Flyers would just bounce off, or better yet, fly around when they see the ban lines.

I’m not too convinced that if this were implemented that the world would all of a sudden be filled with banned property all the way from the ground to 768m making flying useless. I don’t think most people want to be that reclusive. However, the new registration system does give me some pause and may prove me wrong.

And on the subject of ban lines, I think people should be able to configure how they see them. We should be able to set a ban line draw distance. At a draw distance of 0, when hit, the ban lines would snap on for a moment like hitting a force field in a sci-fi movie. It would also be nice to configure the color or, better yet, the texture. If you really hate seeing them, you could define a full-alpha texture for them.

One thing is clear, LL needs to implement better griefer controls and they need to do it ways that make everyone happy or at least give everyone a reasonable compromise.

The world is already filled with banned property. It's just that you don't notice it, because it doesnt reach up and bitchslap you ten sims away* right now as often.

*Ban lines are not always harmless. Try hitting one as you cross a sim border - and they dont render right across a sim line either.

Flying and boating is DEAD in SL outside of a private sim. I have given up on flying and am upset with myself for paying Linden Labs a year in advance. I think the planes on the web page should be taken down as false advertisment.

I am positive that this afternoon we will be seeing the red ban lines to 200 meters but that still will not stop the abusive behavior of the power mad security script owner. With these things a flyer can get dismounted up to 866 feet with no warning. Why bother flying higher there is no view at all. I hate having to TP everywhere. What is the point of it all? We might as well have our own private Sims running on our home computers. Second Life is a social game dominated by the anti social griefers and money hungry. I really hate security script users who don’t set the land controls. You don’t have a clue as to if you can enter. About this being MY LAND. Well a lot of Sims have no roads or protected areas at all. How the frack can one look around for new places without over flying another’s land and getting Tp home?



I am retreating to a private "island" sim. I will maintain my mainland parcel until the end of my premium membership than drop it and my "premium" membership like a bag of trash. I have never meet so many foxtrot alphas in my whole life!

For you. I do both constantly.

I could be wrong for having faith that people would use ban lines as I described responsibly considering there are those who don't use their security scripts responsibly.

If you are online, in Second Life and want your privacy sure, turn on your fence! No one can take issue with that. To me, having privacy (or as much as you can get with what tools we have) is important! As a swimsuit designer, when I work I will be in many states of undress even completely naked sometimes while out in Photoshop. I do not like having people stop by my home when I'm working. SO I turn on my fence and activate my security system.

Griefing? IF someone wants to grief you they are going to grief you and there's nothing you can do about it. you can have your ban fence go up to the moon and it won't stop anyone from griefing you if they want to. I am glad they raised the limit to 200 to ensure they are out of chat distance anywhere on the main grid, but it seriously does nothing to stop anyone from griefing.

I am happy with the raising of the ban barrier to 200 meters. Personally, I wish property lock down fence went up to 200 meters. But again, I only turn it on when I want privacy and I turn it off again when I'm finished. Even when I am home. I never leave my fence on 100% of the time, not even 25%. I only put it on when I do not want to be disturbed.

I really feel that there has to be a better way to be able to identify properties that are off limits to YOU. Whether you are banned or just not allowed because of general land lockdown, I feel there needs to be a better way to identify that fact so you can avoid the area. I don't go places trying to get into where they have me banned. I simply want to know where the places are do I can steer clear of them when I'm doing recreational activities as flying my hot air balloon or helicopter or boat. Honestly, it would make life easier on everyone involved.

*huggles*
Sav

I am sorry, where can one fly without a problem? It is just not possible to do so with security scripts and sim edges. I got tired of being "orbited" or "planted" in the ground and having my viewer get crashed. I dont thing you are being truthful. It you know how to do so well tell everone your techniques. I know of a place to boat but crossing sim boundries still SUCKS!

It's no technique. I just do it.

Don't call me a liar again.

liar, liar, pants are on fire!

*laughs*
Sav

Sadly right now I use as a default assumption that something will be used irresponsibly. There are those who do use things responsibly, like I do. But it's safer to assume that no one else will, then adjust accordingly. It reduces the frustration level. Expecting it to be used irresponsibly and hoping it's not is a less stressful state of preparation than expecting that they're used responsibly and realizing they're not.

I hate overactive security scripts (and some other irresponsibly used stuff), doesn't mean mine has to be, and it isn't. You get booted out if you're physically inside the house (or in the cavity at its rear). But you can freely roam around everywhere else like at the balcony, the roof, the front space, and the floating platform.

Didn't mean to imply you are a liar but every recent flight of mine has ended in diaster. I have tried using one of the cat girls planes again with no sucess. True I know of a place to fly if you like to stay in a couple of private sims but it is a small place to fly even for my tarn. I have tried flying everwhere else with the same end results. You say one thing but my experiences tell me something very different. Do you understand what I am trying to express?

Ya know, repeatedly being unable to fly places due to stuff like that makes me wish I WAS a griefer cause I get so pissed at the SOB for ruining my fun (i was griefed, honest!).

fixed

The people who do this are not likely to stop any time soon. The important question is this: What are you going to do about it?

Look for any voting proposals about adding a mandatory warning and delay to unsit/eject/teleport functions and put your vote into them. The only way to stop this behavior is to change that small corner of the SL simulator software.

Right now, SL airspace might as well be a warzone if you're jetpacking or piloting. It's been that way for a long time. Maybe someday it'll be different.

The way you can safely boat across the mainland is to use a very slow boat. Theres a free one you can get if you touch a box on my pier, its sitting on the bench under the window next to the can of worms. At my Place in Fujin (120,120,20) approx. I've used this boat to cross the continent many times. The red lines do force you to travel down the center of the stream a lot. But the boat goes slow enough that stuff actually has time to rez before your sticking into it.
Also the roads are navagable if you travel slow and don't mind digging your tires out of the pavement at some sim crossings. I found a tour bus I've been driving around and it does something cool when it hits a sim border that would normaly force me to get off and move the vehical it starts moving up and forward till you let off the gas for a sec then it falls back to the road. I like that. I don't have to use edit to continue on my way though the road system needs more connecting roads as you can't even cross the continent using the roads.

It seems like *ALL* of the criticism of this change is not in regards to *BAN* which is where this is most sorely needed, but rather in regards to 'access only' which is an 'incidental' tack on with this.

What really needs to happen is the systems for banning, and for access only, really should be split.

Theres LOTS OF THINGS that need to happen on ban, and ban only

and theres LOTS OF THINGS that should really be done for access restrictions, and access restrictions only, so the two systems should be split.

Additionally, criticism of 'access only' things really belongs in another thread, because people are crossing wires between 'ban' and 'restricted' and yelling at eachother without even realizing they're not really talkign about the same thing.

LL does know about splitting ban off from access, they've talked about it previously in regards to some of the coming changes with land tools etc... So don't panic too too much.

An example would be ban should permanently and utterly remove any ability of someone to access any feature of that owned plot... access restriction should *NOT* be that severe, and should probably be based not as much on *LAND* per se, but on builds... aka an area set access restricted may work better, if it instead of a blanket 'wall' simply put large bounding cubes around existing builds, based on the prims, not the land border itself (obviously not extending PAST property lines however)

This would keep people out of sky builds, or tall builds, but *NOT* block empty space above parcels from flight, for instance.

But again all this talk of restriction issues, belongs in *ANOTHER THREAD*, and one designed to constructively HELP LL find a better way of doing that system, because they are looking at seperating them.