I'll wait till verification of the OP that this is the reason..
Not the first time I've seen Person A make a statement and Person B make a statement and then then have it come back that those two things were 'a cooincidence'.
I think it would be wise to say 'Hey Robin -- does Andrews post have a direct relationship to your question?' and wait for a reply.
Sorry if I sound cynical - but they do this shit to me all the time at work and I'm a lil jaded.
Otherwise we'll have a plethora of posts saying how Havoc 3 is right around the corner.
Personally - my opinion on all things breaky:
If you have to break things to bring what will ultimately be a less buggy and more enjoyable experience - pick the thing thats gonna bust the MOST things straight up and do it first... get it over with.
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Siggy Romulus
DILLIGAF
Join date: 22 Sep 2003
Posts: 5,711
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02-28-2006 22:02
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Einsman Schlegel
Disenchanted Fool
Join date: 11 Jun 2003
Posts: 1,461
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02-28-2006 22:30
If you have to break things to bring what will ultimately be a less buggy and more enjoyable experience - pick the thing thats gonna bust the MOST things straight up and do it first... get it over with. But do you think killing joints and then adding them AFTER Havok3 will fix the problem? I'm pondering that. |
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Cristiano Midnight
Evil Snapshot Baron
Join date: 17 May 2003
Posts: 8,616
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02-28-2006 22:39
If in fact what Andrew Linden said is the motivation behind removing joints, then there does not seem to be a compelling reason to keep them, even if it does break some content in the short term. However, given the fact that Havok was supposed to be patch release about 4 versions of SL ago, I think it is about time that Linden Lab gave us a clear, concise, and realistic answer on when this long promised upgrade will happen. The vaporware promises of Havok and all the joys it will bring (including finally eeeking out a few more prims for our money after years of the same limits) has made SL development, and LL's word, a bit of a joke. We are experiencing it not only with Havok, but how is that browser that was a promised feature of 1.7 coming along? Any day now?
The point of my semi-rant is please, whatever you decide to do with the joints, be forthcoming about what we can expect and when. I would hope that by now the Linden Lab development process is professional enough to be able to provide clear timelines, and to stick as close to them as possible. Yes, deadlines slip - but there is no excuse for promised features not being in after multiple point releases. _____________________
Cristiano
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Starax Statosky
Unregistered User
Join date: 23 Dec 2003
Posts: 1,099
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02-28-2006 22:46
I wonder if this is a 'lets see how they react' kind fo thing. Like we're lab rats or something. lol I don't think so. but I did wonder that about the Resmod thing. The Remod project reminds me of a documentary I once watched were some of the inmates of a prision were allowed to become prison guards. Just to see how the dynamics would change. I can so see Philip getting a kick out of doing the same. Then again, I can imagine Philip doesn't even get time to scratch his ass. Well, I hope not anyway!!! |
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Siggy Romulus
DILLIGAF
Join date: 22 Sep 2003
Posts: 5,711
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02-28-2006 22:51
But do you think killing joints and then adding them AFTER Havok3 will fix the problem? I'm pondering that. Dude, I have no fucking idea  _____________________
The Second Life forums are living proof as to why it's illegal for people to have sex with farm animals.
I, for one, am highly un-helped by this thread |
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Cristiano Midnight
Evil Snapshot Baron
Join date: 17 May 2003
Posts: 8,616
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02-28-2006 22:51
Then again, I can imagine Philip doesn't even get time to scratch his ass. Well, I hope not anyway!!! Ass seems to be a recurring theme in your posts. _____________________
Cristiano
ANOmations - huge selection of high quality, low priced animations all $100L or less. ~SLUniverse.com~ SL's oldest and largest community site, featuring Snapzilla image sharing, forums, and much more. |
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StoneSelf Karuna
His Grace
Join date: 13 Jun 2004
Posts: 1,955
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02-28-2006 23:03
We're considering the possibility of removing 'joints' in Second Life as they seem to be rarely used. If you think that we'll break something you've built if we remove joints as an option, can you please let us know? Just post here -- we'll keep an eye on responses. Thanks! |
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Starax Statosky
Unregistered User
Join date: 23 Dec 2003
Posts: 1,099
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02-28-2006 23:11
Ass seems to be a recurring theme in your posts. Yeah, and guns and shooting!!! I'm worried too! I was going to try an alternative word, but Philip scratching his donkey just doesn't seem to work. |
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Introvert Petunia
over 2 billion posts
Join date: 11 Sep 2004
Posts: 2,065
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02-28-2006 23:36
I'll wait till verification of the OP that this is the reason.. I think it would be wise to say 'Hey Robin -- does Andrews post have a direct relationship to your question?' and wait for a reply. |
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Sean Martin
Yesnomaybe.
Join date: 13 Sep 2005
Posts: 584
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02-28-2006 23:48
I'll wait till verification of the OP that this is the reason.. Not the first time I've seen Person A make a statement and Person B make a statement and then then have it come back that those two things were 'a cooincidence'. I think it would be wise to say 'Hey Robin -- does Andrews post have a direct relationship to your question?' and wait for a reply. Sorry if I sound cynical - but they do this shit to me all the time at work and I'm a lil jaded. Otherwise we'll have a plethora of posts saying how Havoc 3 is right around the corner. Personally - my opinion on all things breaky: If you have to break things to bring what will ultimately be a less buggy and more enjoyable experience - pick the thing thats gonna bust the MOST things straight up and do it first... get it over with. That's why gossip was bad at one time. Or is it still? heh I dunno  _____________________
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Lewis Nerd
Nerd by name and nature!
Join date: 9 Oct 2005
Posts: 3,431
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03-01-2006 00:09
We're considering the possibility of removing 'joints' in Second Life as they seem to be rarely used. I have had several ideas which have sadly ground to a halt, simply because joints do not work. That is why I cannot use them - not why I do not use them. Fix them - somehow. How you do it is not my problem - I'm not a programmer. If you can come up with an easier alternative solution, then that is fine by me - but we need SOMETHING that will allow us to make joints and pivots. Making users script things (or, in my case, pay someone to do it) is not an acceptable answer to me. If I want something to hang downwards whilst attached to something rotating, a joint and physics should be all I need to do it. The tools in the game exist - they just don't work. Removing a feature rather than fixing it (especially when you have been told many, many times previously it does not work) is pathetic, unacceptable, and an admission of incompetence on your part. Lewis _____________________
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Sean Martin
Yesnomaybe.
Join date: 13 Sep 2005
Posts: 584
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03-01-2006 00:44
I have had several ideas which have sadly ground to a halt, simply because joints do not work. That is why I cannot use them - not why I do not use them. Fix them - somehow. How you do it is not my problem - I'm not a programmer. If you can come up with an easier alternative solution, then that is fine by me - but we need SOMETHING that will allow us to make joints and pivots. Making users script things (or, in my case, pay someone to do it) is not an acceptable answer to me. If I want something to hang downwards whilst attached to something rotating, a joint and physics should be all I need to do it. The tools in the game exist - they just don't work. Removing a feature rather than fixing it (especially when you have been told many, many times previously it does not work) is pathetic, unacceptable, and an admission of incompetence on your part. Lewis I think joints used to work at one point didn't they? My thinking is that there must be part of it in the way. It would probably be easier to take it out and rebuild a new joint system around the new engine. Instead of building the engine around borken parts. I know in programming that is just a logical way to fix something in the long run. But if they are talking about removing it for good. I won't be happy. It might be like cutting off a hand to save an arm also. But yeah destroying something that isn't really in the way is pointless. I can't imagin why they would do that without good cause. What a waste of time and work if so. I wish we had more info on it.  Like WHY? lol* "Rarely used" is not a good reason. Unless they are bored and sitting on their asses _____________________
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Osprey Therian
I want capslocklock
Join date: 6 Jul 2004
Posts: 5,049
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03-01-2006 01:36
I don't mind if joints are temporaily removed but are later put back in good order. I don't want them to go away forever, though.
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Nepenthes Ixchel
Broadly Offended.
Join date: 6 Dec 2005
Posts: 696
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03-01-2006 02:19
We're considering the possibility of removing 'joints' in Second Life as they seem to be rarely used. If you think that we'll break something you've built if we remove joints as an option, can you please let us know? Just post here -- we'll keep an eye on responses. Thanks! It will break my sim-crashing jointed object. Which is probably a good thing. Hiint; don't try joining very twisted tori to each owther. I'd much rather see them fixed though. |
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Siggy Romulus
DILLIGAF
Join date: 22 Sep 2003
Posts: 5,711
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03-01-2006 02:39
I have L$50 that says Havok 3 is released before you get a straight answer from Robin. Estragon will match that 50 and Vlad will hold the kitty. _____________________
The Second Life forums are living proof as to why it's illegal for people to have sex with farm animals.
I, for one, am highly un-helped by this thread |
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Introvert Petunia
over 2 billion posts
Join date: 11 Sep 2004
Posts: 2,065
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03-01-2006 04:47
I think joints used to work at one point didn't they? |
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Introvert Petunia
over 2 billion posts
Join date: 11 Sep 2004
Posts: 2,065
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03-01-2006 05:17
I'm not a programmer. ... The tools in the game exist - they just don't work. Removing a feature rather than fixing it (especially when you have been told many, many times previously it does not work) is pathetic, unacceptable, and an admission of incompetence on your part. Can a victory garden be improved by removing plants and replacing them with seedlings? Yes, I am mocking you, Mr. Ken Clean-Air Systems; now go down to the road and rub some gravel in your hair, it's lunch time. |
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Logan Bauer
Inept Adept
Join date: 13 Jun 2004
Posts: 2,237
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03-01-2006 05:56
Fix them - somehow. How you do it is not my problem. Yes! At once! And bring me a sandwich! And a hippo! I don't care where you get them from, who you have to kill to get them, just bring them to me immediately!  _____________________
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FlipperPA Peregrine
Magically Delicious!
Join date: 14 Nov 2003
Posts: 3,703
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03-01-2006 06:13
Get rid of them - they've never worked right! And thanks for asking - it seems to be a lose/lose proposition. Either ask the community and get blasted for having already made your decision, or don't ask and get blamed for being horrible communicators. C'mon folks, we can't have it both ways.
And for the "all sticks, no carrots" camp, take a gander at this thread: /108/52/86249/1.html In summary: extensive library of stock content help island greeter program frisch private islands with extended estate controls custom animations added tube prim added ring prim light prim full bright added dozens of plants improved water rendering improved sim performance virtually eliminated ghosting bug L$=USD insentive eliminated land tax eliminated prim tax (imagine needing 2000L$ in the bank just to rez an av attachment?!) more primtorture controls shiney! eliminated scarcity from the land market. p2p teleport is back and this time it's free music streaming movie streaming particles animated attachments shadows Also new land textures, new avatar mesh, preview for taking pictures AND importing them into world - visual preview for importing clothes, email via script, sit targets on prims, (even if it is only half finished) XML-RPC, spacial improvements to sound, private islands, ban/access lists on parcels, join and subdivide plots, improved find tools, classifieds, MUCH improved tporting, vehicles "my picks" new welcome area improved map land for sale info in map snap to grid local and reference grids New terraform tools! Animated hair/clothes! Bump mapping! Removing recall! llDialog! Prim count per land owned in sim! (Bye bye, prim hogs!) Inventory search! Multiple inventory windows! Multiple select! Snapshot / postcard preview! Group land ownership! Freeze / eject! IRC style chat emotes! (/me does something) Revamped find directory! Email to IM! XML-RPC! Localized sound! Mute without restart! Custom gestures in inventory! Separate library for common items! 1 degree rotation increments! Rotation snap! Snap to grid! Event notifications! Land for the landless! llGetNotecardLine - notecard reading llGetNumberOfNotecardLines llSetPrimitiveParams - fine prim manipulation dataserver event - lots of world data hexidecimal integer input - YAY for self-documenting code llOwnerSay - less spammy attachments and debug llParticleSystem - PARTICLES llLog - Faster math llLog10 working email event - object<->www communication, allows for GOM XML-RPC - more communication llSetParcelMusicURL - Streaming music llParcelMediaCommandList - Streaming VIDEO! llGetFreeMemory - Less crashy scripts llRezAtRoot - More accurate object rezzing llGetAttached llListReplaceList llSitTarget - Precise sit position llAvatarOnSitTarget - everything that tells you to sit on it relies on this llSetSitText - eye candy llSetTouchText llSetCameraEyeOffset - Camera control functions! llSetCameraAtOffset llUnSit - Dont steal my car! llGetAgentSize - Psuedo-accurate avatar height correction algorythims for animations. llGetBoundingBox llGetObjectMass - Accurate object-object physics calculations llRequestAgentData - Names from keys, online status, & more llRequestSimulatorData - Sim corner from name, current status, & more llGetRegionName - w00t, finally llAddToLandPassList llEjectFromLand - Ban avatars without pushing them cross the sim. llDialog - Easier user interface llSameGroup - Group-specific scripts. llGetAnimationList - Animation overriders! _____________________
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Sean Martin
Yesnomaybe.
Join date: 13 Sep 2005
Posts: 584
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03-01-2006 08:51
Get rid of them - they've never worked right! And thanks for asking - it seems to be a lose/lose proposition. Either ask the community and get blasted for having already made your decision, or don't ask and get blamed for being horrible communicators. C'mon folks, we can't have it both ways. And for the "all sticks, no carrots" camp, take a gander at this thread: /108/52/86249/1.html In summary: Your signature is probably one of the longest I've seen on the forums. And helpful too * oh wait that was part of your post HAh _____________________
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Trent Marshall
Registered User
Join date: 21 Dec 2004
Posts: 114
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This thread gives me the munchies!
03-01-2006 09:20
Yeah, I'm for it if it means later improvements.
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Mike Westerburg
Who, What, Where?
Join date: 2 May 2004
Posts: 317
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03-01-2006 10:53
After reading Andrew's post as well, I say yank em out. If it means getting Havok 3 in place sooner which could hopefully increse the prim count per land parcel and physics enable objects. If ripping out Joints for now will help speed the implementation of better collision detection, the ability to link phantom and non-phantom prims and possibly better border crossings due to a better physics engine, take that already broken feature out already. After looking at the responses to this thread so far, it looks like less than a handful of what has been mentioned actually relies on Joints or would not cause the creators of those objects much greif. Even if there is the remote possibility that removing Joints to help speed up the implementation of other possible updates such as MONO by redirecting resources, go for it.
I have messed with joints a bit and hated them, I had better luck squeezing blood out of a torus. _____________________
"Life throws you a lemon, you make lemonade and then plant the seeds"
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Beatfox Xevious
is THOUSANDS OF PEOPLE
Join date: 1 Jun 2004
Posts: 879
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03-01-2006 11:32
As the creator of the Zephyr Chimes that have been brought up several times in this thread, I would be heartbroken if joints were removed completely, and I'm sure the hundreds who have bought my chimes would also be somewhat miffed.
I'd greatly appreciate it if a new joint system were implemented first, preferably one that the old joints could automatically convert to upon update. At the very least, bring them back in some form in the not-too-distant future. But please, don't get rid of them permanently. P.S.: It'd probably be a good idea to mention this in Announcements, so that other joint users don't overlook this thread. _____________________
My Beatworks: Zephyr Chimes wind chimes, the KanaMaster Japanese kana tutor, and the FREE Invisibility Prim Public. Look for them at the Luskwood General Store in Lusk (144, 165).
"You have been frozen. You cannot move or chat. A pony will contact you via instant message (IM)." - mysterious system message I received after making off with Pony Linden |
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Robin Linden
Linden Lifer
Join date: 25 Nov 2002
Posts: 1,224
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03-01-2006 11:40
First, my apologies for not giving you more background on this! But really, I was just asking because it's not a given that we have to remove joints.
As Andrew suggested, deleting joints should help to ease the Havok port. Given that, and the fact that they don't really work very well, we thought we might just eliminate them now. But...we didn't want to break important content. So we asked.  _____________________
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Troy Vogel
Marginal Prof. of ZOMG!
Join date: 16 Aug 2004
Posts: 478
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joint... never worked so far
03-01-2006 11:43
I never could get these things to cooperate without bringing down a sim.
As far as I am concerned they already don't exist. Please bring them back in working form next time. TIA Troy _____________________
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