Joints?
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Introvert Petunia
over 2 billion posts
Join date: 11 Sep 2004
Posts: 2,065
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03-01-2006 11:59
From: Robin Linden First, my apologies for not giving you more background on this! But really, I was just asking because it's not a given that we have to remove joints. As Andrew suggested, deleting joints should help to ease the Havok port. Given that, and the fact that they don't really work very well, we thought we might just eliminate them now. But...we didn't want to break important content. So we asked.  So what are you going to do? Hold your development plans because one player managed to make something with them that didn't crash a sim? |
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Lecktor Hannibal
YOUR MOM
Join date: 1 Jul 2004
Posts: 6,734
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03-01-2006 12:01
I own a set of Beatfox's wind chimes and DO NOT want to see them Lindened. 
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YOUR MOM says, 'Come visit us at SC MKII http://secondcitizen.net ' From: Khamon Fate Oh, Lecktor, you're terrible. Bikers have more fun than people !
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Andrew Linden
Linden staff
Join date: 18 Nov 2002
Posts: 692
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03-01-2006 12:05
While LL has been moving toward a consensus that we should remove joints (temporarily), we haven't actaully removed them yet. If lots of people strenuously come to their defense in this thread then it is possible that LL could decide to support them through the Havok-2 (or -3, whatever) transition.
Supporting joints through the transition is technically possible but it would cost blood, sweat, tears, and time. It seems reasonable to ask the SL Residents how much they value joints (in their current state) to help determine whether it is worth it to spend the extra effort.
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Ghoti Nyak
καλλιστι
Join date: 7 Aug 2004
Posts: 2,078
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03-01-2006 12:17
Faster implimentation of Havok > keeping broken joints.
-Ghoti
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Introvert Petunia
over 2 billion posts
Join date: 11 Sep 2004
Posts: 2,065
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03-01-2006 12:32
From: Lecktor Hannibal I own a set of Beatfox's wind chimes and DO NOT want to see them Lindened. I own a set too and would be pleased to buy another jointed or not. I had most of my pre 1.3 work "Lindened" away (i.e. pretty damn near all of it). And that which 1.3 didn't kill - through undocumented changes - 1.6 did. It probably doesn't matter much anyway as they are "moving toward a consensus" which means that Siggy and Estragon are going to have to wait a while for their L$50. |
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Argent Stonecutter
Emergency Mustelid
Join date: 20 Sep 2005
Posts: 20,263
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win-win solution?
03-01-2006 12:38
Hey, if it's worth money to Linden Labs to avoid keeping joings alive, maybe LL could offer to "buy" the windchimes and other jointed objects people own? That would turn a hard decision into a win-win one.
[disclaimer: as far as I know I don't own any objects that make use of joints, except maybe a nice riding chocobo that I haven't actually checked... but boy do its legs move smoothly, if I don't get the L$0 I paid for it back I'll be pissed]
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Aliasi Stonebender
Return of Catbread
Join date: 30 Jan 2005
Posts: 1,858
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03-01-2006 12:45
From: Andrew Linden While LL has been moving toward a consensus that we should remove joints (temporarily), we haven't actaully removed them yet. If lots of people strenuously come to their defense in this thread then it is possible that LL could decide to support them through the Havok-2 (or -3, whatever) transition.
Supporting joints through the transition is technically possible but it would cost blood, sweat, tears, and time. It seems reasonable to ask the SL Residents how much they value joints (in their current state) to help determine whether it is worth it to spend the extra effort. I can speak only for myself, but I don't value the current iteration at all, even with the things that would break. However, I would only want to see them removed on the condition that they be re-implemented in a newer, better, stronger form. Ideally, some means of converting old jointed objects to work with the new version would be wonderful.
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Mike Westerburg
Who, What, Where?
Join date: 2 May 2004
Posts: 317
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03-01-2006 12:53
And now for a random even possibly dumb question,
Based off of how I perceive the grid(s) to be setup, main and preview.
Would it be possible to satisfy all the angles of this by:
1. Keeping the Joints as we know them in the main grid release and future updates until Havok 2 or 3 is implemented
This part is based off how I perceive the preview grid, I may be way off base here:
2. Remove a few sims from the current preview grid. Convert one of the removed machines into another asset server and create a new mini-grid to take the SL and rip the Joints right out of it for the cleanup process and testing/coding.
3. Perhaps this would involve more work in the long run but release 2 preview clients at a time as need be, one client for the current preview and the other for the new and improved Havok 3 filled goodness testing grid. Test all angles of this as the process moves along. Perhaps with a preview of SL without Joints, we could even find that we can live without them after all until they are re-introduced new and improved with more shinyness.
I may be wayyyy off base on this thought, but considering what I have experienced of the preview grid, it is just a mini-me version of the main grid with it's own asset server with no communication between the 2 except for the first logon to fetch inventory.
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Eggy Lippmann
Wiktator
Join date: 1 May 2003
Posts: 7,939
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03-01-2006 13:16
Ok, ok, remove the damn joints and give us the new havok thingamabob |
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Jonquille Noir
Lemon Fresh
Join date: 17 Jan 2004
Posts: 4,025
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03-01-2006 13:22
I tried to use Joints to make a glider swing a long time ago, and couldn't get them to work, so I haven't tried to use them since. So personally, I have no use for them since I'm not clever enough to figure them out, and wouldn't miss them, or probably even notice, if they disappeared. (I do reserve the right to complain loudly if they disappear and it breaks something cool, though.)
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David Valentino
Nicely Wicked
Join date: 1 Jan 2004
Posts: 2,941
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03-01-2006 14:06
For the love of god and country, DON'T REMOVE JOINTS FROM SECOND LIFE!!!! My livelihood, the welfare of my 32 children, and the future of all dolphins depend upon joints remaining an intricate and needed part of the SL building tools!!!
I like joints, I want joints and I need joints! Havok is a pipe dream anyway, and a joint in hand is worth two pipes in the bush!
Btw-Where can I find these joints? I've been building in SL for 2 years and I don't even recall ever seeing them. Perhaps I blocked them out after trying them once?
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David Lamoreaux
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FlipperPA Peregrine
Magically Delicious!
Join date: 14 Nov 2003
Posts: 3,703
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03-01-2006 14:50
From: David Valentino For the love of god and country, DON'T REMOVE JOINTS FROM SECOND LIFE!!!! My livelihood, the welfare of my 32 children, and the future of all dolphins depend upon joints remaining an intricate and needed part of the SL building tools!!!
I like joints, I want joints and I need joints! Havok is a pipe dream anyway, and a joint in hand is worth two pipes in the bush!
Btw-Where can I find these joints? I've been building in SL for 2 years and I don't even recall ever seeing them. Perhaps I blocked them out after trying them once? Not this dolphin!  David, I'll be sure to show you a joint at this year's SLCC. Friday night, behind the bar, next to the dumpster!
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Belaya Statosky
Information Retrieval
Join date: 3 Jun 2004
Posts: 552
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03-01-2006 14:55
From: FlipperPA Peregrine Not this dolphin! David, I'll be sure to show you a joint at this year's SLCC. Friday night, behind the bar, next to the dumpster! Thank christ. Over eighty replies and each one was making me more and more tempted to make the obvious joint comment. |
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Feynt Mistral
Registered User
Join date: 24 Sep 2005
Posts: 551
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03-01-2006 16:19
From: Andrew Linden While LL has been moving toward a consensus that we should remove joints (temporarily), we haven't actaully removed them yet. If lots of people strenuously come to their defense in this thread then it is possible that LL could decide to support them through the Havok-2 (or -3, whatever) transition.
Supporting joints through the transition is technically possible but it would cost blood, sweat, tears, and time. It seems reasonable to ask the SL Residents how much they value joints (in their current state) to help determine whether it is worth it to spend the extra effort. And this goes back to my better tomorrow poll. This is the very least I would give up, something I've seen in operation once and then replaced with an llSetRot/llSetPos equivilant because the object was too big to move and occasionally FELL from its position (it was a bell on a bell tower. A big bell, on a big tower). I'd be willing to give up physics in general if it'd mean Havok 3 got here faster. According to my poll at least, there's 45 people out there who agree to ditch joints. As for a replacement, well I've experimented with a seesaw catapult in SL using physics. Assuming no MAJOR force is applied to the opposite end (like, super duper pass through walls type speed) the lever stays on the non-physics joint in mid air and you go flying across a sim just fine. That kind of thing could be used easily to make replacement chimes, and I would gladly help in their redesign. So TECHNICALLY a replacement joint exists and always has, it's just it seems very few people have actually tried screwing with the physics engine in that way. |
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Mystic Soothsayer
Registered User
Join date: 17 Oct 2005
Posts: 58
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you will break my windchimes!
03-01-2006 17:25
NooOoOoOoo
I bought these awesome windchimes that actually swing in the wind and sound beautiful and they are one of the fav decorations in my gardens... without joints this 700L$ (which is a lot to ME) investment will be broken!
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Surina Skallagrimson
Queen of Amazon Nations
Join date: 19 Jun 2003
Posts: 941
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03-02-2006 01:53
From: Andrew Linden While LL has been moving toward a consensus that we should remove joints (temporarily), we haven't actaully removed them yet. If lots of people strenuously come to their defense in this thread then it is possible that LL could decide to support them through the Havok-2 (or -3, whatever) transition.
Supporting joints through the transition is technically possible but it would cost blood, sweat, tears, and time. It seems reasonable to ask the SL Residents how much they value joints (in their current state) to help determine whether it is worth it to spend the extra effort. Everyone here wants Havok3 as fast as possible. Everyone here wants joints to work properly. What we're concirned about is if you take joints away to speed up the Havok3 release will we get them back WITH Havok3 or will we have to start a feature request vote and wait 3 years while pestering the dev team daily untill we get them back again? I used a joint in one of my "I'm bored at work experiments" just last week and it works fine thank you very much. A physics water wheel rotating about a "hinge", powered by temp-on-rez balls that drop onto it.
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Surina Skallagrimson
Queen of Amazon Nation
Rizal Sports Mentor
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Introvert Petunia
over 2 billion posts
Join date: 11 Sep 2004
Posts: 2,065
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03-02-2006 02:50
From: someone What we're concirned about is if you take joints away to speed up the Havok3 release will we get them back WITH Havok3 or will we have to start a feature request vote and wait 3 years while pestering the dev team daily untill we get them back again? You say that as if voting, requesting, or pestering would have some effect.  |
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Surina Skallagrimson
Queen of Amazon Nations
Join date: 19 Jun 2003
Posts: 941
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03-02-2006 04:18
It doesn't, but it gives us something to do while the forumresmoddhramah threads go through a quiet phase...
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Surina Skallagrimson
Queen of Amazon Nation
Rizal Sports Mentor
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Philip Linden: "we are not in the game business."
Adam Savage: "I reject your reality and substitue my own."
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Christopher Omega
Oxymoron
Join date: 28 Mar 2003
Posts: 1,828
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03-02-2006 07:50
From: Andrew Linden While LL has been moving toward a consensus that we should remove joints (temporarily), we haven't actaully removed them yet. If lots of people strenuously come to their defense in this thread then it is possible that LL could decide to support them through the Havok-2 (or -3, whatever) transition.
Supporting joints through the transition is technically possible but it would cost blood, sweat, tears, and time. It seems reasonable to ask the SL Residents how much they value joints (in their current state) to help determine whether it is worth it to spend the extra effort. Screw the joints, I want Havok 3  ==Chris |
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Sable Sunset
Prim Herder
Join date: 15 Apr 2005
Posts: 223
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03-02-2006 09:00
From: Invect Hasp Why not just make them work but expand and improve them so that you can use hierarchically linked joints?
All sticks, no carrots.
Even the orientation island uses joints.
There must be someone in the world who can do the math to improve joints. Hire them!
Robin may actuallly not realize, the reason people don't use joints is partially that they are very limited but mostly that they work terribly.
Properly functioning joints, no more powerful than what currently exists, would be used a great deal, especially if there was so good simple to understand help info on how to use them built into the UI.
Properly functioning joints that could at least be made into simple linear "chains" would be used a great deal. I agree 100% - just because they were so poorly implemented they were rendered almost unusable is no reason to remove them - they need to be fixed not taken away. I've built things in SL that I've sold to others that use joints - like a usable punchbag for instance. This would have been impossible without joints. Ok, we may be talking about just one item - and SL would not be a hugely worse place without it - but it's the fact that people have viewed this a development option regardless of it's current limitations that is important. To remove them simply because they're problematic would be wrong and a step backwards. You (LL) should commit to implementing something that could open up a whole new set of building possibilities - all you need to do is invest some time and money and DO IT RIGHT! |
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nimrod Yaffle
Cavemen are people too...
Join date: 15 Nov 2004
Posts: 3,146
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03-02-2006 09:48
 My grandma votes to keep joints.
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Frans Charming
You only need one Frans
Join date: 28 Jan 2005
Posts: 1,847
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03-02-2006 14:05
Decision has been made. Thanks for your input.  /3/51/91234/1.htmlFrom: Karen Linden Other changes:
* The ability to create joints has been removed from the Tools menu
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Lecktor Hannibal
YOUR MOM
Join date: 1 Jul 2004
Posts: 6,734
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03-02-2006 14:08
How about that.
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YOUR MOM says, 'Come visit us at SC MKII http://secondcitizen.net ' From: Khamon Fate Oh, Lecktor, you're terrible. Bikers have more fun than people !
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Psyra Extraordinaire
Corra Nacunda Chieftain
Join date: 24 Jul 2004
Posts: 1,533
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03-02-2006 14:16
From: Robin Linden We're considering the possibility of removing 'joints' in Second Life as they seem to be rarely used. Gotta be kidding me, everywhere I go someone's got a toke sticking out of their lips. Oh, wait... wrong joints. Indeed, I make lil' birdie mobiles that use joints. But they've always been a bit twitchy, but I've never considered it bad enough to require them to be..... nerfed! 
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Teddy Wishbringer
Snuggly Bear Cub
Join date: 28 Nov 2004
Posts: 208
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03-02-2006 15:17
From: Robin Linden We're considering the possibility of removing 'joints' in Second Life as they seem to be rarely used. With all the magic mushrooms available in SL, yeah, no need for joints... Ohhhh.. THOSE joints! nevermind.. edit: memo to self, read all the pages of the thread before posting the same silly reply as other have previously. *sighs* |
