Collecting information about your computer?

Agreed with Siobhan....this is a BS move to the point of being intolerable...ESPECIALLY for the reason given... commitment my arse!

Because SL is free. It's intended to be free for basic users. I can understand LL's desire to make it as easy as possible to go from hearing about SL to being in SL. If they're trying to build a web platform rather than an MMORPG then your comparison is apples and oranges. How do they make it as easy as possible to get in while at the same time make sure asshats only get a minimum number of chances to practice their asshattery? I really don't care if LL knows the serial number of my motherboard. They aren't going to be keeping a log of what porn sights I browse and forwarding it to the NSA (er, at least I hope not).

In any field, there are tried at tested - and working - things common to all similar products.

Refridgerators... for example... all use similar methods of working, although the technology might be slightly different, and there may be more environmentally friendly methods of operation, but essentially its all the same - they keep stuff cool.

Methinks sometimes Linden Labs want to be so "ground breaking" in what they do that they are totally disregarding what WORKS for the competition (ie other games) simply because others use it, rather than because they think they have a better idea (which frankly is rarely the case these days).

Sometimes being different for the sake of it is *not* a good thing. Open registration is clearly one of these.

Lewis

Kris,

The "you have nothing to worry about" comment was directed only at Lewis's question regarding transfering between two machines.

The second paragraph is the one that addresses the issue of what they're looking for. But really it may be better that which info they're looking for be kept quiet nonetheless for purposes of making it a bit more difficult for griefers to circumvent the system.

I log on from home, of course, and from work during my lunchtime *cough*.

Anyone who knows me knows that I am not a griefer so in that respect I have nothing to worry about. I just worry about information being gathered, and I don't know what that information is - even vaguely.

Lewis

Robin did say it's machine identification stuff and most likely specs and serial numbers of some of the computer's components. That's why if you notice, a lot are not bothered by it.

It would be pointless (and troublesome) for LL to look for personally identifying info on the machine, and it won't be useful because such info is not permanently attached to the machine (they're in files, if present at all).

Yes you do, at least vaguely. They're telling you, it will gather information about your hardware:

"The changes include notification that we will be using various means of hardware identification when you install Second Life, and that we will be displaying information to others about your account. Here's the specifics of what this all means: Hardware Identification
The Privacy Policy now points out that if you install Second Life software we'll be collecting information about your computer. The point here is to allow us to verify a unique identity and therefore better contain griefing by multiple accounts from one system. This information will not be available to non-Linden employees, and will only be available to Linden employees in an encrypted ("hashed" format."


Read the whole thing in context.

Probably also CPU codes as well, think they have unique serial numbers these days. Theres the graphics card and general hardware configuration as well. A lot of games poll those configurations these days for testing and polling whose using what to play their game.

On the whole don't really have much problem with it. Credit Card verification isn't going to come back because I think I can see where LL wants to potentially take SL. Namely building a platform by which organisations like the BBC can run virtual events and who will promote Second Life through that. Effectively free marketing and publicity for SL. A big download button on the BBC isn't something to sniff at.

Yes, auntie Beeb is very forward-thinking and has always been well ahead of the curve.

As for the hardware ID thing... on one level it's a good idea. But what about people who are constantly rebuilding / stripping-down / modding their computers? I do that and I'm certainly not a griefer. Also I could be logging on from any of 3 or 4 different computers at home, so LL could easily end up with a very long list of machine ID's for me. What then?

Some guys like raising a fuss just for fun, don't they?

This is NOT exactly what we wanted. And until LSL scripting allows us to do something with the account status, it's only going to benefit LL when dealing with AR's...

BUT...

- As has been stated many times: It's not only OS's which will build a hash code for your machine. Music programs, electronic book readers, ... will do it to identify your machine.

- The above is NOT spyware. It is an identifying machine key.

- The verification status is NOT about whether you own land or not. Buy Lindens for 5$ once and you are a fully verified account. Simply provide your CC information at registration and you are as good an account as any pre 6/6/06 account (since we had to provide CC info but were not forced to buy anything).

- Those who have made purchases with LL in the past have a transaction history with them linked to that account. So verified status should be able to be applied retroactively, even if you don't buy Lindens or pay tier now.

- That solution will give system bannings some teeth by making it more difficult for hackers to come back, certainly more difficult than with IP or MAC bannings.


And for Brits complaining about ID card (and bear with me because there is a parallel with SL), I understand the resistance to that change because ID cards can be pushed for all the wrong reasons by politicians. But ID cards are mandatory in Belgium and I have one. Always had. And you know what? I've never been treated like a criminal by the State. In fact, there are advantages of having a means to identify me: I can cross European borders without the need for a passport, I don't need to wander everywhere with 3 recent bills (yea, that's secure) to identify myself in all kinds of situations, ...

I'm not saying that here to open the ID card debate. It's irrelevant. But to mention that the fact that LL can identify your machine is not exactly a bad thing. Sometimes, it's good to have a trusted means of identification.

Wendel

No, but then again neither is the damage caused by some untraceable griefer crashing one of these "big events" which, for some, may be their only experience of Second Life and put them off exploring the rest of the grid.

I went by the BBC event for about 10 minutes before I gave up due to the ridiculous amount of lag that was there. For regular residents, the welcome areas are just as bad. I'm not entirely convinced that either of these scenarios, or the one above, are actually helpful.

"Big names" are not always beneficial either... remembering that the majority of people who play this game are just individuals, and we need to feel that our efforts are appreciated. It seems, in many ways, that "the little guys" aren't even wanted here sometimes.

Lewis

What's the problem with that? LL hasn't said it would allow only your known hash to run SL. LL doesn't care if you run SL from 2 or 3 different machines. It will record your machine hash on set-up (or when you log on) and tie it to your acount info. It only needs to be used as a filter if you get banned (and only THEN would rebuilding your machine have an impact). If you get banned, not only is the account banned but the machine hash will also be used, no doubt.

Wendel

Since the new open registration it has given every griefing, banned, supsended alt a clean slate, will all exisitng members get a clean slate as well? (rap sheet) ??????????

Lewis, this thing you're kicking up a fuss about? It deals with the 'untraceable' griefer issue about as effectively as you could hope for. It means, if you're banned, wanna come back in, get a new machine. You can't really complain about these two issues in the same thread, because one addresses the other.

Do you want them traceable or not traceable? Which is it? This tops a credit card, for this issue. Stolen card, gift card, won't help the griefer once they're banned.

I wasn't necesarily kicking up a fuss- merely making sure it was bought to the community properly for attention; it isn't in a forum I regularly read, and if it hadn't been the last post there when I looked this morning I - and 99% of the community - would probably have missed it until it was introduced.

I must admit I feel uneasy about Linden Labs "snooping about" on my computer for information that can be tied to my identification, and it appears I'm not the only one.

Can we *really* be sure that this information is secure? Can we *really* be sure that an enterprising griefer won't find a way to "spoof" this information to bypass the checks?

Lewis

I SO totally agree. Big deal if they know I use credit card/paypal or check card!! If you're a a paying premium member... NO SHIT!!! You had to pay!

Folks- ALL computer hardware has an identifying serial number. What do you think a MAC or IP address is?? Sign up on Steam or Guild Wars or Warcraft, and they most likely have it too!

I wouldnt call this "Spyware". Spyware denotes software that tracks your habits on the Internet (for the most part) and uses it for nefarious purposes. The only way I'd call this spyware is if LL started sending unwanted emails for RL stuff just becuz I bought something like it in SL.

The beauty of this system: Get banned & you have to replace maybe your RAM, or video card, or CPU, or Motherboard, or NIC, or CD/DVD ROM drive or Hard drive.

So if your a bored-lets-go-fuck-with-these-people-just-cuz-its-free kind of person, ya think they'll be back after having their COMPUTER HARDWARE banned?? I think not.

Wendel, no probs at all. I'm just doing a bit of 'devils' advocate' thinking here. A machine ID will most likely work at keeping out banned script kiddies / asshats / griefers. However, I don't see it working against the 'pro' level of griefer who would prolly build up a fresh machine for each job and then recycle the components afterwards.

Alazarin, I didn't mean to criticise you but to reassure you. Apologies if the tone of my message didn't convey that.

As for your statement, it's true. But then again, neither would a lousy CC number. If you are truly what you would call a pro griefer and intend to do real harm to the grid, you certainly would find a CC number to use too.

There are no perfect solutions. But this would certainly cut off the herb under the feet of all the obnoxious griefer wannabes.

Wendel

Lewis. They're not peeping your documents or capturing your keystrokes fishing for your bank account number. They're tieing pieces of hardware to accounts, not even your actual identification, merely connecting your machine's imprint to an SL identity.

I doubt someone can 'spoof' your hardware components.

The information will be encrypted. If you're worried about whether this is secure, aren't you more worried about the credit card information you're so in favour of being secure? I'm not sure I'm fussed if someone knows the serial number of my hard drive, or the like. I don't see what they could do with that information.

Sidenote: I'd just like to point out yet another abrupt unannounced major change that Phillip Linden assured us LL would never do (which is make any sudden unannounced major changes)

..... they are giving us LESS THAN 24 HOURS to agree to the new TOS.

Out of alllllllll the talk of new measures that will be put in place to prevent griefers, not one thing was mentioned about LL adding methods of getting our computer infos until THE SAME DAY that it is going into effect.

I feel uncomfortable giving out credit card information, and have all my 'online activity' concentrated on one card so that my general credit card (that I use with chip and pin) will be unaffected should anything happen to my 'gaming' card.

Lewis

That 24 hours notice is, of course, only relevant to the tiny % of players who read the forums. The rest won't have a clue until it hits them.

Lewis

That's OK. Me not read so good but I think I will manage to read the TOS and agree to it in a few minutes.

If you don't agree with it or have doubts, by all means wait. It's LL's prerogative to change the TOS at any time. Deal with it. And make your own decision as to whether you agree with it.

Wendel

Good point....


If anyone has any of the past transcripts from previous town hall meetings... please post the part where Phillip says "LL does not work secretly, any changes that are being planned or coming soon will be announced"