Collecting information about your computer?

Nolan: We're not going to get to see who's Premium and who is Basic. All we'll get in terms of billing status is if a particular account has any billing details on file, and if those have been successfully used for a payment yet.

A US$5 spend on Lindex would bring a "nobody specific" up to the same visible level as a Premium account, which (IMHO) is how it should be. I don't need to know who you are in Real Life, but I could conceivably need to know if Linden Labs know who you are.

I think that they are doing that so we can have some level of confidence about the people we are around, or doing business with.

I agree that it will cause some problems, but not because anyone will say they are being favored because of their billing status (unless they won't let such people be mentors or something), but because I have heard lots and lots of people say they plan to ban everyone from their land who isn't verified. Or verified and registered, or whatever the various categories are.

There might even be a way to do that automatically, for all I know.

coco

coco

People calling for bans with respect to account age are not reasonable. Just because there are some loons out there that are preoccupied by account age, doesn't mean it's a valid comparison or reason to enable and indeed create a caste system.

It's fine if people want to do so on their own. LL does not need to have an active hand in enabling it anymore than they already do, IMO.

And before anyone says it, yes, I have "Charter Member" on my profile, and would like to see that go away too. It's been more a source of grief for me than anything else.

So because I've never needed to purchase L$ and I've always managed to earn what I wanted, if you had a store I wouldn't be welcome to shop there?

At any rate, I HATE that the people I work with and I will need to discuss the possibility of banning accounts that fall into the first category, those who have given LL no information at all. I don't want to do it. But we may need to do it in order to protect our members from the kinds of griefing idiots we've had lately and from the possibility that the cute girl they are flirting with is underage.

I will NOT however be willing to ban people who simply haven't paid money to LL but have been willing to give information. I can't imagine the people I work with will do that either. Either way is discriminatory, but I dont know, lesser of two evils?

Fortunately it's not just up to me, maybe the people I work with will have better ideas.

I think that is true! Because you get the option to give your credit card when you join, even if you are not going to be a premium.

coco

Or... return to a simple equality system, where you have to register with a credit card to get an account in-game.

Everyone's problems solved.

Lewis

But Allana, there are two states of "unverified", really. One, you have provided LL with a credit card or paypal as a form of ID. Two, you have spent money with that CC or paypal. For most people, just providing the CC# or whatever will be enough to prove you aren't here for trouble. A griefer isn't likely to give LL their credit card number.

I do hope that the registration process encourages people to give the digits though, even if they don't plan on spending any money. Tell them that this is a form of ID security for members of SL, and that they may not be allowed in certain places without it (especially adult areas).

And I agree... that would be ideal. But we all know now it isn't going to happen. I believe with the protest we got some compromises. The teen grid will be better protected and we know now that they do plan to track at least where people are playing from through computer information. It's not ideal, but it is a compromise.

The main point about the reg was that griefers were coming in with armies of alts.

So how do you stop them? The approach that LL will be implementing will seriously curb the griefer-alts issue. Thus making ban lists more effective.

In order for a griefer to get around this, he will have to redo his computer for every alt he makes. If he doesn't, the alt can be traced to his main account by matching the hashed system ID codes.

So if you AR person 1 and later AR person 2 and they turn out to be using the same machine. You've nailed the griefer-alts.

The solution does not stop griefing totally but it cuts off the alts-escape route.

I don't mind my computer info being sent. Microsoft gets it anyway whenever I install XP. My important numbers are not stored on any of my computers, so no big deal.

As for the concern about the landless being 2nd class citizens remember that the moment someone buys Lindens from the LINDEX, payment/billing information is used and that person now has a verified payment. So verified payment does not exclusively mean landed. I see no mention of being able to discern between those who got verified by going premium, by getting a basic account before it was free, and by purchasing on the Lindex. All 3 types have verified payment.

How is whether or not someone's been billed a signifier of whether or not they are trustworthy? There are a myriad of basic account holders who are some of the most trustworthy, successful, and nice folks in SL.

I am slowly coming around and warming up to the whole unverified account deal. But, I don't think that it should come at a cost to those who are truly decent folk, many of whom have been here for years, just because they don't wish to own land or purchase L$.

To me, it creates an atmosphere which encourages discrimination.

How does this discourage griefing? All I see it doing is to open up another way for certain residents to be scrutinized more than they already are.

LL will have the hardware profile to identify alt griefers. I just do not see how profile grades will curb griefing. All it does is give people a false sense of superiority and security, and will create more contention. It will also make more ban happy people.

Payment is not an indicator of trustworthiness.

1st. As Robin said, payment info WILL be required for Teen Grid so that you either have age verification or consent by the cardowner. Either way, they have tracking info for teen grid violators.

2nd. Combine the payment info with the hashed computer config data. If someone has griefer alts these alts can be traced back to the primary account and the payment mode can be disabled for that account.

3rd. The verified payment status is not unique to landowners. Those who got basic accounts before it was free and those who purchased on the Lindex have verified payment status as well.

Now if someone's worried about his status? Simple matter to buy any small amount of Linden on the Lindex to create a verified payment. 30 cents plus the transaction.

Because now LL doesn't have to do what they haven't done much of anyway, deal with griefers. Now it's the landowner's responsiblity. Which I think sucks, because I want LL to permaban these creeps, who can and do bother everyone, not just landowners, and have made sandboxes hell, for instance.

It also gives those who want some sense of security that they aren't dealing with someone under-age a way to filter them, fair or not. You don't have to spend any money, just provide the card number.

As long as the registration stays open, there was going to be a "solution" that was unpleasant, really.

I don't really mind LL finding out 'information about my computer' unless I know specifically what that is.... when I read the TOS tomorrow, if they gloss over what info they're taking then it will raise my suspicions. If they are specific, precise, and direct about the info they want, then that's good with me..... but it'll be an obvious breech to me if they gloss over it like they did in the blog.

Myself, as well as other people I'm sure have programs that'll tell you specifically what info LL is taking.... and if it's anything screwy, I'll make sure to post it everywhere I can, and as I abandon LL, I'll begin gathering my evidence....

But, I trust LL..... or do I ....

can't wait til tomorrow, it'll be a good one

I have a curiosity question...

Let's say I have a basic that oh months and months ago was actually a premium account for about a month. (I completely forgot that until now) Does that reflect still now under this new system?

And I have an alt account created a few months ago that was created under a different debit card number (the first one was lost on a trip long while back) but real name and phone number and everything.

No wait, phone number is different too, first number was shut off when I got a new cell phone.

So my account that could be considered fully verified, money paid into the system actually now has invalid information. The account that has all valid current information has never paid any money to LL.

So what am I? Am I verified or not? What "class" will I fall into and will both my accounts be considered the same class... after all they're both me.

hmmm *laughing*

Guess I'll find out tomorow.

I'm guessing you'll be verified for the premium account. As for the alt, it depends on whether any transaction was made.


@Io Zeno

The verification system does not address all incidences of griefing. It's only one part of a bigger solution. There is mention elsewhere of a second component to anti-grief which is the ability to block PUSHes that come from outside your parcel, unfortunately only landowners can have this.

To tell you most frankly, I'm a person who likes coming up with solutions and I still don't have any effective solution that can protect sandbox users without adversely affecting useful scripts that involve the functions that griefers also use. The only thing I can think of is to have a checkbox where you will allow or disallow external PUSHes and the like.

How many griefers are going to give payment info, especially now that they do not have to?

There's also the issue of those, like myself, who use SL from two different PC's in different locations, often within a couple of hours of logging out from the other location.

How will that information be tied in?

A quick tip for Linden Labs.... openness is good, glossing over important questions implies you have something to hide. So, are you going to tell us what you're snooping around on our PC's for?

Lewis

TBH, I'm surprised Linden Labs didn't already "collect information about your computer" because so much software already does this. Go check the licenses for Windows Media Player, Apple Quick Time Player, and Real Player for example. They all do it. Whether it's being used for positive or negative reasons is the real issue but I'm satisfied it's being used reasonably here. Being able to cross-reference a myriad of Alts spawned by single machines is absolutely essential in resolving the continual griefing IMO. Sure, it's not a solution and there will be workarounds, but at least it introduces a level of difficulty that will hopefully limit the problem.

Personally, I prefer the odd dedicated griefer to the dozens of one-day griefers we have plaguing the sandboxes atm.
--
Dillon

That's the beauty of the upcoming system. These griefers will be pinned down by the machine identification hash. It's a simple matter for LL to ban a machine.




Unless you're a griefer I don't think you have anything to worry about.

As for what LL is looking for? If they told you, you'll be giving griefers the means to change their codes. Leave some things unsaid. But IMO, motherboard serial number and OS serial number (for XP) would be sufficient for now.

LL already takes info about computers... but so far, it's been nothing important or anything anyone would feel should be private IMO.

Personally I think this is a very good solution to the problem. It's easy to change an IP address and well worth the effort to any dedicated griefer, but who's going to change their motherboard just so they can come pushgun another victim? I think Nolan raised a good concern about whether or not the account status would be retroactive. MY other concern is the same as with any software I use that is licensed to unique hardware. If I buy a new computer or have a hard drive die or get a new network card, will I lose my verified and billed status? What system will be put in place to handle those situations? Will it be both quick and painless and at the same time be smart enough to keep permabanned people from using it to become unbanned when they buy a new computer?

I really don't care about knowing if someone is verified or not. If I know that a griefer is going to be thrown out and can't get back in with a new account five minutes later that removes any reason I'd have to care what someone's status is. I'd say let's not create a class system by publishing account status in profiles. It's not necessary. Just ban people who deserve to be banned and keep them banned. This is a step in the right direction.

I agree 100% about the hardware profile. In fact, I think it's enough, because alt griefers aren't going to last long anyway.

I just don't think the profile grades are necessary, entirely because the hardware profile is deadly accurate and doesn't get other players involved.

At any rate, Io, Coco, Aodhan, et al, I just disagree on that aspect at this point. I don't want to get into a protracted debate about it at this time, because we simply don't have enough info yet. My opinion may change as we get more details, but the whole three tiered class thing really leaves a sour taste in my mouth.

Given how I see LL handles stuff. Verified status is tied to your account and not to your machine anyway so verified will be verified no matter where you are.

A banned account will remain banned obviously, as can a banned computer. The griefer will have to get a new computer to circumvent the machine ban, and create another account. Now if he keeps up the griefing, he will get the new machine banned eventually, so he will have to buy another computer again.

I can see some use for it. But I don't see it being necessary either because it will create "first impressions" which can erode an open social atmosphere.

And yes, guess we wait and see how the changes will affect the world.

Here we go with the 'if you have nothing to hide you have nothing to worry about' argument. Getting quite sick of that atm with UK politicians and their compulsory ID card sceme. More like 'we'll treat you like fucking criminals anyway and if we turn out to be right, this might help do something about it'.

I for one want to know exactly what information they are taking from me, thanks.

Or preferably, admit they're being fucking assholes and go back to credit card verification. Why is it such a problem for potential SLers when every other subscription game or service on the net seem to manage fine doing it that way? Doesn't seem to be holding back WoW, does it?

And I know it's a novel concept, but perhaps Second Life should try making the product better to tempt new customers to come in in rather than just opening the flood gates.