Does anyone feel ...

This must change. Only in the most severe cases shound anything on the forums affect your in-game presence.

Because of the easy availability of a new account, the trolls can come back again and again and cause all sorts of chaos on the forums with no fear of retribution... yet long term, committed, paying players who have invested lots of time, effort and money into their SL presence can, for no reason, lose everything. Surely that cannot be acceptable.

Lewis

Well, I do.

Disclaimer: I skimmed to the end to comment. If someone else said this already, I apologize for missing it.

----------------------------------------

While it's true that poor customer relations can kill an MMORPG eventually, it tends to be a very slow death, or else it takes until "something else" comes along that can effectively substitute for it, which especially in SL's case is fairly unlikely ... although I suppose eventually it could happen. But what I'm trying to say here is that because people personally invest so much both in terms of time and emotion into these things, they will endure an extraordinary amount of abuse -- far, far more than any normal customer would endure from, say, a restaurant or store. They'll complain, they'll beg, they'll threaten to leave ... but in the end, they'll stay regardless.

I remember seeing it happen with DAOC. They broke the (initially great) game again and again and allowed a horrible exploit (buffbotting) to continue unchecked -- even facilited it, in fact, since it was profitable for them in the short term. People complained, threatened to leave, made the usual posts about legal action and etc. ... and ultimately stayed, of course. I think, from what I've heard, that DAOC is finally feeling the effects of Mythic's actions, but it's a long, long time in coming.

Basically, poor customer service can hurt an MMORPG eventually, but the lead time on that is enormous. It's not at all like most services. Not at all.

You think Second Life should emulate Active Worlds?

What on earth are you talking about?

Strife, just get rid of the rule. It's not necessary, it strikes fear in the very users LL needs to survive, and it's overkill.

No need to put in some kind of techy "solution", because there is no problem.

The world will not end. People still want to be able to post on the forums; they don't want to be suspended or banned from the forums. Being suspended or banned from the forums is punishment enough.

Just get rid of the rule.

coco

Don't ask me to get rid of rules; I cannot do it. They aren't my rules; don't put me on the defensive. Your comments have been heard and considered; they have been weighed into my suggestions. I disagree with abolishing the connection; but I support its reform. With the option of giving out lighter punishments, such as forum only suspensions, it would increase the granularity of the disiplinary action. Repeat offenders would have to do more to see inworld disipinary action. Griefing on the forums should have the possability of removal from game; if they grief on the forum, where it is a perminant record, why won't they grief in game where a perminant record isn't necessarily left by their actions?


Transparentcy is a problem. It helps addresses that. Transparentcy is a good thing. It allows for people who are under moderation to still be heard; Free Speech is a good thing.

Both sides have been heard and considered; a compromise has been found that addresses the issues.

Philip Rosedale has invested many millions of personal dollars into this project. I suppose that's why we do things his way.

Where have I heard this before? Hmm let me think.

For your extended reading pleasure:

SL Must Change
Are You Scaling Back?
An Older Crossroads Thread
The Original Crossroads Thread

But numbers count when you are shopping around for a buyer....?

I agree there seems to be a choice being made about the direction of SL, some good choices and some bad, but what dismays me is the lack of loyalty to those of us who have been present and loyal to SL from the start.

Thank you, Selador, for voicing something that's been tumbling around in my head for months. I remember when I first joined SL there was a lot of dismay from older residents about how much SL had changed from when it was just a handful of sims and everyone knew each other. Now, I find myself remorsefully saying "back in the old days, when there was just one continent..." and feeling a sense of loss when I look at SL today. I remember how much we all celebrated when we hit 20k residents... Opening registration was a point that we can never go back from; while I see that SL has to reach profitability to continue, I can't help wishing we could just remain that charming B&B in the cool Victorian mansion instead of trying to become the Marriott.

I started participating less in SL when I grew disgusted with the inability to police the Welcome Area (back when it was the one entry portal and there was no Help Island.) Eventually, they solved the problem by bringing HI online and distributing spawning areas, but that took months and months; the whole time the WA was a sewer and none of them would do anything about it. I'm all for freedom of expression, but it took until this last update for me to be able to mute some asshat's sound clips as well as their chat. It just plain takes too long for residents get tools to protect themselves from griefers, annoying twits and those who get their yaya's off harassing others. But we can get ripple water....

We bitch about a lot of things on the forums, but we bitch about the behavior of other residents more than any other single issue and the fact that we are powerless to combat problem people.

Well!

In the first place, I wasn't asking YOU to get rid of the rule. I'm not an IDIOT. I'm fully aware of how impotent resmods are.

I'm certainly not attempting to put you on the defensive! You're going there all by yourself and taking a high-and-mighty tone with me as you do it. I was just talking to you! Have you forgotten how to do that?

My comments have been "heard and considered" and "weighed into your suggestions"?

What do you mean? Heard and considered by you?

Tell ya what, I'm not here to be "heard and considered" by YOU.

"Both sides have been heard and considered; a compromise has been found that addresses the issues"?

What the heck are you talking about? What compromise? What sides?

Are you all this full of yourself because the Lindens asked the resmods for their opinions? And you're preparing some little report or something?

Kindly DO NOT address me like a king willing to look down his nose at the lesser residents from his throne.

Seems to me that you are just another paying resident, like myself.

I'm glad you are so happy with whatever you are trying to say in this post, but I can tell you that I'm not the least bit happy with you in this position and taking on airs about it. I've always defended the resmods as individuals in all these forum doings, but I'm about to change my mind about that, at least as regards you.

coco

P.S. If their response to all this is asking resmods what to do about the problem, well, hey. That right there is just another example of the problem.

P.S. And to answer you question, BECAUSE THESE PEOPLE AREN'T GRIEFING ON THE FORUMS IN THE FIRST PLACE!!!!!!!!!

/claps for Coco

Way to go, Coco!

I agree with you Selador and I am trying my best to ignore all of the little squabbles going on in this thread which have nothing to do with your original post. Some people just can't get beyond the me me me.

Anyway I feel that something has changed with SL and I am not sure what it is. My best guess is that Linden Labs is encouraging sheer commercialism and leaving the fun part of of Second Life behind.

Relax people.

SL is a growing entity. It is experiencing explosive growth and as with any company that experiences explosive growth, there are difficult adjustments that must be carried out in an effort to meet the demands brought forth by that growth.

LL has been hiring and expanding quite aggressively. Hiring, staffing and training take time. These functions are responsive in nature, very difficult to plan for, and generally dependant on growth.

This is not meant to invalidate your frustration because its hard to ignore all of the recent problems brought forth by our resdents. However, does anyone really believe that LL does not care and is not trying?

No one can or should deny your right to constructively cristicize. But understanding is very enlightening sometimes.

By every indication, it is apparent that LL works very hard to bring us content, fix bugs, and advance the SL platform.

They deserve the benefit of the doubt.

Bone Bone Bone Bone.. Bone.. Bone.. Bone.. Bone.. Bone

Now tell me whatcha gonna do

when there ain't no where to run (tell me what)

(When judgment comes for you, when judgment comes for you)

And whatcha gonna do

when there aint no where to hide (tell me what)

When judgment comes for you (Cause it's gonna come for you)

Let's all bring it in for Wally, Eazy sees uncle Charlie

Little Boo, God's got him and I'm gonna miss everybody

I only roll with Bone my gang look to where they lay

When playing with destiny, plays too deep for me to say

Lil' Layzie came to me, told me if he should decease well then
please

Bury me by my grand-grand and when you can, come follow me

God bless you working on a plan to Heaven

Follow the Lord all 24/7 days, GOD is who we praise

even though the devil's all up in my face

But he keeping me safe and in my place, say grace

For the case to race with a chance to face the judge

And I'm guessing my soul won't budge

Grudge because there's no mercy for thugs

Oh what can I do it's all about our family and how we roll

Can I get a witness let it unfold

We living our lives to eternal our soul aye-oh-aye-oh

Prayyyyyyy, and we pray and we pray, and we pray, and we pray

Everyday, everyday, everyday, everyday

and we pray, and we pray, and we pray, and we pray

Still we laced, now follow me roll stroll

Whether is tell of his Heaven

Come let's go take a visit of people that's long gone

Darris, Wally, Eazy, Terry, Boo

It's steadily creeping up on the family

Exactly how many days we got lasting

While you laughin we're passing, passing away

So y'all go rest y'all souls

Cause I know I'ma meet you up at the crossroads

Y'all know y'all forever got love from them Bone Thugs baby

Now Eazy's long gone

Really wish he would come home

But when it's time to die

Gotta go bye bye

All a thug could do is cry, cry

Why they kill my dog and man

I miss my uncle Charles y'all

and he shoudn't be gone, in front of his home

What they did to Boo was wrong

Oh so wrong, oh so wrong

Gotta hold on gotta stay strong

When the day comes

Better believe Bone got a shoulder you can lean on (lean on)



Hey and we pray, and we pray, and we pray, and we pray

everyday, everyday, everyday, everyday

and we pray, and we pray, and we pray, and we pray

everday, everyday, everyday, everyday

See you at the crossroads, crossroads, crossroads

So you won't be lonely

See you at the crossroads, crossroads, crossroads

So you won't be lonely

See you at the crossroads, crossroads

So you won't be lonely

See you at the crossroads, crossroads

And I'm gonna miss everybody

And I'm gonna miss everybody when I'm gone

And I'm gonna miss everybody

And I'm gonna miss everybody

And I'm gonna miss everybody

Living in a hateful world sending me straight to Heaven

That's how we roll

Living in a hateful world sending me straight to Heaven

That's how we roll

Living in a hateful world sending me straight to Heaven

That's how we roll

And I'm asking the good LORD with a sigh

It's I he told me we live to die


What's up with murder y'all, see my little cousin was hung

Somebody was really wrong, everybody want to test us dawg

Then Miss Sleazy set up Eazy to fall, you know why we sinnin

And Krayzie intended on ending it when it ends

Wanna come again, again and again

Now tell me whatcha gonna do

Can somebody anybody tell me why?

Hey, can somebody anybody tell me why we die, we die?

I dont wanna die



Ohhh so wrong

Ohhhhh wrong

Ohhh so wrong

Ohhhhh wrong

you tell that 2 bit loser like it is

someones drunk on power

he has "heard and considered you, now be gone peasant"

i think all this time spent with the Kinder Gentler Mulch is having a good effect on you Coco

when a hall moniter loser talks down like he is some form of elevated life, and continuosly speaks as though he has some sort of real power instead of this imagined forum jokeying, it is obvious who has the real problems (such as delusions of granduer)

i asked him to come have a reasonable conversation with me since he was such a loser, but when he doesnt have his little LL supplied safety helmet and whistle, he is at a loss for words

(hey, i get paid when i do work for someone, im not an idiot who does work for free to ass kiss a for-profit corporation and lets it go to my head like i was christ reborn, i dont have that type of internal strife)

wait until the laboratory is done with him and all he has left is his reputation as an asshat to make him feel less like a used, dieased condom, which is actually a step up from where he sits now, in judgement of us pawns

wait, what were we talking about again?

Coco, in fairness to Strife, you really did imply he could get rid of the rule.

I'm probably making a huge mistake by getting involved in this debate, but when regular posters start making posts like this, there is a problem. And while I think this post is extremely unfair, it didn't come out of a vacuum either. And I think what was lost in Skife's post was that he is acting as a conduit between the forum regulars and LL. We as a group will carry a lot more weight if we have once concise message instead of 400 spread out over 2000 threads and a dozen message boards.

And on Strife's post, which was written without enough care to each and every word contained in it, there was no compromise. That implies there was some mutual agreement. Here, LL may have modified certain rules based on player input, but that hardly constitutes a compromise. But this too is a problem. Words are focused on far in forum far more than in a normal conversation, and one poor choice of words or phrase will cause a tremendous amount of aggrevation and gnashing of teeth.

A better way this could have been handled? Have the mods who wish to act as a spokesman start a thread, get feedback in it for suggestions, and make one concise message. I'd certainly participate in that thread.

I know and I respect the way you feel.

But there are some really good things coming, like improved group tools.

And 1.10 really proved to me that LL is capable of doing it right. Probably, I'd agree with you if it weren't for that one release. But it singlehandedly improved my experience of SL in such a way that I'm willing to be patient.

There need be no compromise. The rule need not exist. Separate forums and game now.

All it will do is drive people away from the official forums for fear of having their in-game presence negatively affected simply for speaking their mind, and being attacked by a resmod who loosely interprets vague rules for their own benefit, and is well aware that there is no appeals process or accountability on their part.

This will only further fragment the community as they spread wider afield on the various third party forums, instead of bringing together and building the community - something sadly lacking in SL, and I believe would be a huge benefit to everyone.

Lewis

In my opinion, the timing of this thread is off - The "crossroads" that the OP referred to was reached in late 2004, when various community-related issues arose that LL neither acknowledged nor - in some cases - recognized. Around that time it became fairly obvious that the company did not have the vision, committment, and skills necessary to manage the social entity they were trying to produce. Although technical fixes, utopian white papers by Linden management, and the benevolent in-world hand of Char Linden masked that fact for awhile, the bleed-out of talented developers and community organizers (two very different, but equally necessary components of SL) became a serious problem at that point.

SL today is a violent, garish doppelganger of what people in 2003 and 2004 hoped it might become. Some people thrive in that sort of environment and have found a home here. Others bemoan the good old days. Most don't know enough about the product (technical and/or social) to judge for themselves. Perhaps now the problems that the OP outlines have become "inescapable" - but this is an old issue that LL and resident leaders have never successfully had a dialogue about, let alone found a solution to.

Should say that this avie is my spouse's, who signed on because she was curious - and is looking over my shoulder right now. I joined in late 2003 and "moved on" early in 2006.

and yet not as ridiculous as being an adult who can't spell ridiculous.

Heaven forbid you people understand they can't sit down and write code in a day or a week..

Heaven forbid you realize it is NOT your product and you can only make suggestions...

Heaven forbid you realize that making demands is not going to do shit...

Heaven forbid you take the time to add up the people who are making these DEMANDS and realize it is a very very small percentage to what is in world...

Heaven forbid you adapt to the changes and figure a way to make them acceptable to you all...

Heaven forbid you guys don't blame the moderator who is on the bottom of the tottem poll...

Heaven forbid you don't act like some elitist people who have the social skills of a bed bug..

I don't suppose that it occured to you that those who come to the forums are the percentage that care the MOST, because we want to get involved in the wider community outside of our own little groups, want to make suggestions to improve the game, and want to discuss things of concern to many of us?

Where are we told to go if we're having problems? The forums.

Where are we told to go if there's a grid-wide issue? The forums.

Where do the Lindens give information? The forums.

You don't think we have the right to expect a certain level of service when we are paying for that service?

By the way, don't be confused by the 300,000+ accounts. There's probably about 30-40,000 regular players, the rest are dead accounts and alts. If LL did a database clearup, that figure would drop considerably. And before people whine about losing stuff for not paying, all I can say is "tough". If you haven't logged in for a year, why do you think you have a right to have everything still there? You don't.

Lewis

Those who are for removal of connection between forum and SL ban, and those who are against such removal. Like, duh.


I think the whole "you are treating me like a peasant" thing is in your head, i.e. you are reading his post with already made up mind on how you're viewed... which skews your perception and only further reinforces you in your stance.

He's saying that a) resmods cannot change rules and b) those who can change rules (Lindens) took into consideration arguments of both sides, and came to what they consider middle-ground solution. One that allows more granular reactions to forum offenses, i.e. don't /have/ to result into linked punishment in SL.

that's all. Hardly something to get all CAPS and exclamation marks!!!1one! about...