Does anyone feel ...

Me too

I don't know what percentage of the user base the forums represent, but I'm sure it's very small. This probably is, or will be (or has been), the reason LL cites for ignoring the forums.

However, I'm willing to bet that these same small number of forum users represent the vast majority of popular blogs and third-party SL related sites that are huge parts of the overall SL experience (remember, we create the content AND the press) which future residents will encounter before trying the service.

Caveat venditor.

As far as the ResMod situation goes (and there apparently is a situation), I think that it is improbable for ResMods to be completely professional because they have their unique names and reputations at stake and are therefore bound to take things personally during any dispute.

One possible improvement that would be useful would be to provide a "contact senior moderator" button that will send a thread for review to someone who does not perform low-level moderation duties in order to evaluate a moderator's performance or bad judgment. It is laughably ironic that since there is no transparency regarding user punishment, we users feel that our only recourse to accusations is to post in a space controlled by our accusers.

One possible solution to improving ResMod professionality would be to strip ResMods of their identities when performing moderation duties. This way, they won't feel obligated to make foolish, unprofessional comments or ill-placed animadversions as defensive justifications for their decisions. If all ResMod actions showed up as being from "A Moderator," then perhaps it will be easier for these ResMods to be professional because they won't have to protect their reputations or their egos. They will become impersonal cogs in a much greater machine performing perfunctory duties-- as they should be.

The possible backfire would be that they would become even more heavy-handed if LL retained a lack of accountability and transparency where decisions affecting user speech is concerned. Which brings me to my next part...

Even though LL is a company with international users, it is one based in a country whose freedom of speech laws and ideals ultimately supersede corporate interests to control the output of the user (who are at least 50% of the user base). Even though LL can control what is on their servers and what is in-world, they cannot control or subvert (for long) the expectations and traditions of a people who expect transparency of decisions involving punishment and freedom of speech, and who enjoy these rights in real life and in other venues on the internet. Philip has claimed that SL is a country. Part of running a country is respecting the beliefs of your population and recognizing that your people are not divisible from the basic expectations they have come to enjoy before migrating to your land; paramount is the right to freedom of speech (which exists both in the country where LL is located AND on the internet where they have situated their product). There are countries that choose to ignore the will of their citizens, and these countries are called dictatorships. If this is the case, then please change the PR.

I believe that the central reason moderation exists AT ALL is because of griefing and trolling (which I cannot absolve myself of even though I've never done it to the extent where I was punished for it). I also believe that moderation, as it is performed, is WRONG because it amounts to nothing short of censorship. Therefore, let me propose a possible solution that will both do away with moderators and censors, as well as deliver a blow to trolls and allow us to experience the freedoms we expect in real life and elsewhere on the internet:

Put the power back into the hands of the users. Our forums, our freedom of speech. Just as there are repercussions to free speech that aren’t enforced by Law in the U.S., let trolls suffer the same on our forums.
Under each user's name, show the percentage of active users (say, within the past 30 days) who have that user muted. If a certain user is muted by a high enough percentage of active forum users (I don't know, maybe 30%), then make all of that user's posts hidden behind a one-line drop-down box that also displays their mute percentage. They are not completely censored, their names are displayed that they have something to say (without subject heading), but new users can easily skip reading what the user base has collectively decided is trolling. Of course, trolls will bleat about reducing civilized discussion to a popularity contest (as well as the apropos comments about Bolsheviks), but at least their voice hasn't been silenced. Their basic right to communicate and their basic humanity (in the form it takes on the net) won’t be taken away--just turned down a whole lot.

Easy. Simple. Middle ground.

Strict Censorship cannot work forever. You are alienating your paying customers. We are adults, even if we act like children. Again, caveat venditor.

note the 17 day turnaround on troubletickets for disasterous glitches like the loss of all property... (that's 16 days after he cancelled his account)
http://kfsone.wordpress.com/2006/07/28/sit-regret-post-eve-note/

please don't become like eve....

Hi Folks,

Let us be realistic. LL is not just one entity. There are good guys and bad guys, competent and incompetent, helpful and unhelpful, respectful and disdaining.

At the top we have Philip. He has a dream which he only unfolds to us in ways we do not always interpret correctly. On one side he has a team (hopefully a large one) beavering away with scripting solutions and on the other he has a team of sales and pr people. My impression of large organizations is that, when things go wrong, they get more PR people to minimise the damage effects immediately rather than hire more programmers capable of fixing the problems in the long term. The sort of people that run startup companies are generally not the people that run companies in the long term.

When choosing between incompetence and willful negligence, I always choose incompetence as the reason things go wrong.

It is always hard for foundation members (all those who joined in the first two years, say) to accept that they no longer are the guiding force as organizations like this grow at the fast rate that LL and SL are growing. People have to face change. Many organization exercise "change" management by appointing more PR types. Some, like LL, do it by ignoring resistance to change. Whatever, change is rapidly increasing in pace and we need to deal with it. But we probably will not like it.

I have worked in different programming environments and the most effective ones were run by benevolent dictators. Programmers just like to write code and more code. They do not want to observe coding standards and the do not like to debug code, not their own and certainly not someone else's code. As LL matures they will need to change their practices and unfortunately that will mean new staff and hence a slow down in productivity. It will hopefully lead to more reliable code.

Not much of this is anything we can do much about. But it will happen.

We need to show a greater interest in the preview grid and make positive statements about problems we find there so that LL will trust us and work with us. I don't see much evidence of trust right now.

Just my $L5 worth.

Ed

I take your point, Chip, but you can only do that for so long before your patience wears thin. I had been sending emails for a period of 8 months over one issue, and still haven't received an answer; I gave up in the end. How long should someone be polite/respectful for before it's acceptable to display frustration?

I think the problem with this is defining exactly what is in residents' best interests.

In other MMORPGs it's much easier, because everyone's basically got some unifying reason to be there - there's a core mechanic to the game. If it's a monster killing game then anything that makes it better to kill monsters will be good for most people, and although there might be arguments about what "better" means at least that core unity will still be there.

But in Second Life it's all around the place. I've seen it in my own experience. One of the products I make and sell was based on a forum post asking the Lindens to add a new feature to SL - reading it, I thought "you don't need LL to add that", and scripted it myself. It's been a good seller - but thinking about it, was it in people's best interests for me to do that? After all, if I hadn't provided that feature, maybe LL would have, and it would be free to everyone. Democratically I'd lose, since more people would vote for it to be free. This isn't the kind of thing that can concern someone trying to do business - I was just trying to do the best I could to give people what they wanted, so I don't feel guilty or anything (although it has made me rethink my position on some previous arguments). But I can see it concerning LL, because they know they have lots of users doing business and a good part of their business model and publicity is based on supporting them.

If LL reduced texture lag, would all the vendors and designers who spent hours designing builds with low-lag textures complain that their advantage was lost, and those builders who used hi-lag textures had been effectively rewarded? If they added full lighting and shadow to the graphics engine, would the people who spent hours baking textures complain? If LL doubled prim limits on all sims, would there be similar complaints from people who had spend hours honing their skill at low-prim builds? What exactly is "in the best interests of all residents"?

Profitability first.

Whatever it takes, and fast.

Right now, to sustain staff for development the Company is sucking down multimillion dollar investments; 8M USD a couple years ago, 11M USD a few months ago.


It's the extremely inexperienced mainstream user, just a few minutes old, that will decide all of our fates.

/signed, me too'd, ditto'd whatever the hip kids are saying these days. ^.-

When I asked this, only one linden answered.

/139/6e/123376/1.html

Then someone asked what novels the Lindens read, and a bunch of them answered.

/139/dc/124093/1.html

Basically, some of them are reading all the crap that we say. Just that they can't really be bothered by what some of us say. It has no short term bearing on their monthly pay cheque.

In my opinion we should always be polite and respectful. It's not mutually exclusive to expressing frustration. Obviously LL is stretched too thin and customer service isn't what it should be. I hope as much as anyone else that they're able to improve the situation.

Wasn't there a recent press release where Philip mentioned that LL had started peeking into the black?

Eve isn't perfect, and imo 16 days for a reimbursment petition is very quick. The existance of reimbursment itself is very generous as well.
Compare it to SL where currently you get an automated reply and then nothing, no info on what's happened.

Please do become like Eve, and then if you can still do better, improve even further.

I agree, generally, but if being polite and resepctful forbids the use of words like 'incompetent' and 'ignorant' when they are truly deserved, then I guess I am unable to follow your ideal. If a someone displays the same ignorant or incompetent behaviour over and over again, I feel no less of a person for stating that. But then, that's because that person has then totally lost my respect.

You exaggerate your own importance and the feasibility of LL establishing "good relationships" with over 200,000+ residents.

LL is a growing corporation. Almost all companies that make the transition from small, tight knit enterprise to large, Fortune 500-ish organizations experience a shift from personal culture to procedures culture.

That is what is happening here. Its no surprise and its no tragedy.

Its inevitable. LL cannot realistically maintain good relations with its user base - perhaps what you are really suggesting is that LL maintain good relations with a tight knit advisory group - or FIC (as I think I have seen some people refer to it as).

I say no thank. LL is on the correct path.

What happened in this case, I gather, is that one of the Lindens saw the thread and told everyone else what a cracking thread it was. I doubt any one of us has the time to read more than a fraction of them let alone reply. Also the reading list was asking for individual replies; most threads that I've seen are best answered by one or two people.

Second Life has been at a crossroad every month since I joined 2 years ago. It's always been bumpy. There has always been unrest. And yet in those two years the platform has advanced greatly in both technical and social terms.

There are always challenges, but I don't see anything particularly unique about our current situation that makes it any more alarming than every other crisis we've had before.

I think you've taken the OP too literally. Customer care and customer relations are vital for any business, no matter what size or culture it operates under.

This is an interesting thread.
I find myself habitually going into overview mode.

If I were in charge of SL and I really wanted to effectively
respond to my user base. How in the world could I possibly do
that.
Or conversely If I as a user were granted a special appointment
to present my top ten concerns and the suggested solutions to those concerns, how could I do that in as precise a manner as
possible.

The way I see it the challenge is to identify consensus
among the greatest number of users in the population.

1. Consensus
2. Collation of that data.
3. Presentation.


I believe these are the 3 top challenges to effecting change.

None of us as individuals can reasonably expect to have our
own individual concerns addressed 100 percent of the time.

What if we each listed our top ten concerns numbered,
limiting each one to a single sentence.

Then list our top ten suggestions to those same concerns.
Once again numbered and limited to a single sentence.

This way it would represent a standard format of data
presentation. It is something that could be more easily digested by the LL management.

Perhaps this could be a periodic activity on the part of the
sufficiently concerned and proactive residents among us.

There could even be a group formed charged with these duties.
Some sort of all encompassing Citizens Group.

Perhaps some of these things already exist in some form.
I am aware of the propositions but have not studied in detail how they are sequenced.

Chip I agree with you that we really do not need to resort to
name calling.
And that to do so actually robbs us of credibility in these forums.

Consider this:

8M USD + 11M USD + whatever else used to start - let's just call it 20M USD. Ridiculous underestimate.


"Ah, cool, thanks for the 20 mill, we are peeking into the black, thanks guys! Here's a Company mug with Phil's picture..."




Even if the investors suddenly call from a Tibetan monastery and forgive all debt, this is *not* a sustainable platform until it's gulping several millions per year just for continued development.

Thanks for replying. I wasn't expecting a whole band of lindens to answer either. But my point is, the fact that some more trivial thread seems more 'cracking' as you say and deserves attention from a couple of dozen lindens to answer still proves that LL do read the crap that we say, just that they avoid the nastier less palatable ones that they leave for the front end liaisons to deal with.

Selador, excellent post.

Cow Hand, user-created content drives this world. What happens if the content creators leave?

Word of mouth spreads; if people start saying "avoid SL, there's no reason to go" - the world fades.

LL needs to work with it's customer base, or they'll wind up driving away the people who make it a world worth staying in.

i could not agree more with the OP, i belive we are at a very big crossroads, however, i am not sure there is a "wrong" path to take from there, just different ones. I have been a cheerleader for SL for almost 2 years, i have voiced some complaints but over all i have tried to be supportive because this place is still very magical to me. Over the last month or so, i have begun to wonder if there will be a place for me in SL in the future,as things lean more and more to the commercial uses i have begun to feel more alienated, on one hand i marvel at the cutting edge uses of SL for teaching and advertiseing, and i see incredible possiblities for the future. Then, i wonder what about people like me? who have no real skills or talents or any interest in making SL our living, but just wish to come in and escape for a few hours. LL's decsions recently to open enrollment has had interesting results. The only reason i have heard that makes any sense is to make it easier for peopel to bring clients in, well why not have a corporate account with say 10 avies on it so if you want to bring someone in to look at something, you have a premade av for them to come look around? The new snapshot features will help "professional" photographers a great deal but take away the simple snapshots from enexperienced or casual users, while a simple toggle for Advanced and simple mode would solve this issue. i see both of these developments as a move by LL to help build teh buisness side of SL while they are moving away from any kind of support for the arts. There is room in SL for everybody and every thing and i do not think LL should not be helping bring rl buisness here, in the long run it will most likely be a benifit for all. As much as it pains me to agree with Lewis about anything his posts in this thread have been dead on and very well stated and echo much of what i am feeling lately
hmm i guess i have gotten a lil long winded here, sorry,

Ugg. I wasn't aware that warnings were issued without the poster being notified what they were warned about. Without a poster knowing what caused the warning, not only is it impossible for any meaningful appeal when warranted, but it equally impossible for the poster to know what the transgression was, which could lead to more of the same. As it stands, its a good way to breed a lot of discontent among forum regulars.

No kidding.

My views -
Violations should be given a shelf life, say six months. Anybody can make a mistake, either from a bad in RL, a moment of a lapse of reason, or being targetted on the forums and snapping. However, multiple violations in a short time span is an inidcation of something else.

Basic v. Premium: Depends on what info is avail. If on the moderator side IP addresses can be viewed and alts easily identified, then treat basics the same as premium. If not, then premiums should be given a bit more slack to offset the use of disposable basic accounts by forum trolls who will try to bait regulars into committing TOS violations.

Tools: In my view, and I've moderated several boards since 1997, the best run boards use the fewest tools. A good moderator can take an otherwise inflamatory post/poster and help bring it back on track. It can be draining at times and its not fun, but its far more effiecent long term than other approaches. I've always observed that forums moderatated with a heavy hand have the most problems. Threads will take their own course and usually die out. When light handed approaches are taken as a rule and more serious action is needed, the forum regulars will have seen the efforts of the moderator and will almost always give a lot more support.

Need to know: It is imperative that posters know why they are being sanctioned, meaning an exact copy of the offending post and the specific rule violation that is claimed. If a moderator can't quote the section of TOS it violates, the post should stand. Moreover, by not disclosing the offending material to the poster, it is impossible for the poster to know what he or she did wrong and prevent a reoccurance of the same behavior.