ONE (1) SL wiki
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Eep Quirk
Absolutely Relative
Join date: 15 Dec 2004
Posts: 1,211
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04-27-2006 00:13
There are 3 SL wikis now, all with different wiki software: - SL Wiki (formerly SL Support Wiki until I renamed it since it has more than just support topics) - TikiWiki
- LSL (Scripting) Wiki - WakkaWiki
- SL History Wiki - MediaWiki
They need to all become a single wiki because they have duplicate pages about the same thing (avatar, object, script, etc) and it's annoying having to link them all as I have been doing recently. Since all of these wikis use different wiki software, the syntax is slightly different for each one. For example, creating a link in TikiWiki requires (()) around the local link ([] for external links) and a | in between the URL and link text. WakkaWiki's links are just [[]] and a space between URL and link text for internal/external links. MediaWiki is like a cross between TikiWiki and WakkaWiki, with [[]] for internal links and [] for external links--but no | between URL and link text. Needless to type, trying to add content to all of these wikis is confusing and irritating--and this is just for links! WakkaWiki's bold (**), italics (//), and header size (more "=" for larger font) syntax is more intuitive too. WakkaWiki's table syntax is similar to TikiWiki's but actually works with newlines--UNLIKE TikiWiki. The SL Wiki's TikiWiki software is pretty bad compared to the others. Its comments don't work, there wasn't even a "recent changes" link until I added one on the main page but it doesn't work well. User names can't be clicked (though a user's name page can be created but it won't be linkable from the recent changes, etc). Even searching for a space gives an error. The LSL Wiki's WakkaWiki software is no longer supported and, while I am most comfortable with it, it is lacking with respect to MediaWiki which is what I think the single SL Wiki should use. The SL History Wiki's MediaWiki software is decent (though it needs the same link syntax for both internal AND external links) but it's run by "benevolent dictators" (and I mean that in the nicest way since they are pretty open to suggestions and stuff) and the SL Wiki needs to be more like the LSL Wiki in terms of user-managed ( but still needs LL to maintain/upgrade the software, improve on it, etc). If there's a converter from TikiWiki and WakkaWiki to MediaWiki, great, but LL needs to upgrade the current SL Wiki (formerly SL Support Wiki) to MediaWiki and start promoting it as THE SL wiki. There has already been discussion on the SL History Wiki about broadening its scope but I think a wiki merge would be a better, more sane, solution (as I've already proposed in that discussion). Torley Linden mentioned: From: someone For the longer term we are hoping to move towards a better system for the support wiki. I know this isn't the only problem with it But how long is it going to take? We need a wiki merger NOW.
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Jonas Pierterson
Dark Harlequin
Join date: 27 Dec 2005
Posts: 3,660
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04-27-2006 01:08
can we call the merger Tinki Wiki?
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Sarg Bjornson
Theme Park Designer
Join date: 14 Sep 2005
Posts: 244
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04-27-2006 01:24
Yes, I'll have to agree with this proposal. The current setup is a bit confusing, especially with the three different systems
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Torley Linden
Enlightenment!
Join date: 15 Sep 2004
Posts: 16,530
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04-27-2006 02:46
While sadly it won't be done as fast as "now", I do agree it's confusing. I get rather befuddled looking things up, and without effective search, makes it more puzzling. At least we have a Google site search now.
When I or any Lindens have got more news about updates and such we'll definitely post--this actually reminds me of something Catherine Omega's been saying. I'd recommend talking with her about how she feels, too, since she did found the LSL Wiki.
One wiki... to rule them all!
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Dyne Talamasca
Noneuclidean Love Polygon
Join date: 9 Oct 2005
Posts: 436
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04-27-2006 03:12
I'm a lot more interested in converting the Lindenwikis to use MediaWiki (as I like that considerably more than the other packages) than in the merging aspect.
I don't mind that they are separate, as the topics are reasonably distinct and the reasons for their existence differ. There's no particular reason they must be cross-linked as you've been doing, and the annoyance factor is IMO not a sufficient reason to merge them, because merging wikis is not a trivial process.
On the other hand, I'd only need one login.
I think that if you want to propose merging the history wiki in with the others, that's a separate issue than merging the two linden-hosted wikis together. The former is up to Oz and Eggy first and foremost. The latter is up to the Lindens (insofar as they would need to change their site links and such, as well as support any software change).
And I know that I personally can't support a merge that results in using either TikiWiki or WakkaWiki, as I am actively disinterested in using those packages.
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Eep Quirk
Absolutely Relative
Join date: 15 Dec 2004
Posts: 1,211
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04-27-2006 03:20
From: Dyne Talamasca I don't mind that they are separate, as the topics are reasonably distinct and the reasons for their existence differ. There's no particular reason they must be cross-linked as you've been doing, and the annoyance factor is IMO not a sufficient reason to merge them, because merging wikis is not a trivial process.
On the other hand, I'd only need one login. Can you really not see other benefits of having a single wiki besides a single login? Annoyance factor is a HUGE, if not THE reason to merge them! Why have to traverse 3 or even 2 wikis to get more info about a single topic like, say, avatars? The general definition, technical info and scripting info, and history could all be on a SINGLE, convienent wiki, without having to crosslink each entry (yes, it's necessary to tie in all the info!) and duplicate information/formatting. Merging wikis shouldn't be THAT big of a deal since there are just minor syntax differences and there HAS to be a converter out there already...if not, it wouldn't be that difficult to create one. From: Dyne Talamasca I think that if you want to propose merging the history wiki in with the others, that's a separate issue than merging the two linden-hosted wikis together. The former is up to Oz and Eggy first and foremost. The latter is up to the Lindens (insofar as they would need to change their site links and such, as well as support any software change).
And I know that I personally can't support a merge that results in using either TikiWiki or WakkaWiki, as I am actively disinterested in using those packages. Well, even if the 2 Linden wikis were merged would be better than nothing.
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Dyne Talamasca
Noneuclidean Love Polygon
Join date: 9 Oct 2005
Posts: 436
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04-27-2006 03:58
From: Eep Quirk Can you really not see other benefits of having a single wiki besides a single login? I can see them, I just don't place the same importance on them that you do. I also see drawbacks to such a merger. From: someone Merging wikis shouldn't be THAT big of a deal since there are just minor syntax differences and there HAS to be a converter out there already...if not, it wouldn't be that difficult to create one. Don't forget the need to preserve page edit histories, which requires compatible backends as well as a superset of the merged wiki's user lists. Assuming that you don't want to potentially lose that data, that is. If you just converted the current contents of pages, it'd be easier. But even then you risk losing an old (better) version of a page that has been defaced or improperly edited, you'll need some way to decide what happens when you have page name collisions, you'll need to eliminate redundant pages, you can't rely on the links in pages staying the same (especially on a different wiki with different conventions ... for example, the history wiki shuns the CamelCase link style), the organizational structure would be an utter mess until it was manually sorted out, and so forth. Mind you, I'm thinking that you want to employ an automated process. If you just want people to migrate content manually, then there's nothing stopping you from doing that now. But then you'd need to decide where to move it to, and convince everyone to agree with you.
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Eggy Lippmann
Wiktator
Join date: 1 May 2003
Posts: 7,939
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04-27-2006 05:04
In the spirit of "I did that in beta", well, truth is a year or two ago Robin actually invited me to hand over the history wiki to be placed on their website. We talked for a while and for some reason they changed their mind. Gotta love LL! Me and Oz have been talking about "broadening the scope" for a while, moving towards a more general-purpose wiki than just history, in hopes of lowering barriers to entry and gathering more contributors, as well as increasing the usefulness of the wiki for everyone. The LSL wiki grew explosively because it was something that people actually NEEDED to use, instead of something that may be interesting to read for those who haven't had their attention span ruined by modern media yet  Plus, MediaWiki is what everyone's used to using and more featureful. An "industry standard", so to speak. So basically if you want to, you can put up whatever you want there and we'll sort it out later. Your wiki, your imagination 
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Sarg Bjornson
Theme Park Designer
Join date: 14 Sep 2005
Posts: 244
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04-27-2006 05:12
Ahhh, so Eggy is calling for us to fill the history wiki with all the unsorted pages and crap we can dump on it, hummm?  I agree that MediaWiki is much better than the other two formats, if only for the reason that Wikipedia runs in MediaWiki and that is what everyone is used to see. I also agree with Dyne that an automated merging might be quite tricky, unless someone is up to the task of programming a lil program that takes issues such as Talk pages into consideration, which I sincerely doubt. The problem with manual is that it will take either ages or a lot of people willing to help...
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Reitsuki Kojima
Witchhunter
Join date: 27 Jan 2004
Posts: 5,328
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04-27-2006 05:15
From: Dyne Talamasca I can see them, I just don't place the same importance on them that you do. Agreed. I don't see it as a huge issue.
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Khamon Fate
fategardens.net
Join date: 21 Nov 2003
Posts: 4,177
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04-27-2006 05:47
From: Eep Quirk Why have to traverse 3 or even 2 wikis to get more info about a single topic like, say, avatars? This question answers itself. More and varied information is collected from large and diverse groups of people when the collection points are segregated by categorical names and purposes that attract their attention and support. If the Linden supported SL wiki avatar page doesn't answer your question, look on the history wiki. Someone who posts regularly to the history wiki, because they love the idea of a history wiki, who would be uncomfortable posting to what they perceived as THE OFFICIAL LINDEN SL WIKI, might well have added the information you're looking for. As long as the managers make a point of cross referencing with links, I don't see the difference. Click a link, see information. It may not be hosted at the same site by the same people, but it's just one click away. Why force everyone to use One Wiki All Hail The Central Wiki just because Eep doesn't want to click a link and read two pages instead of one? More to the point, why limit ourselves to one wiki operated, filled and edited, by one group of people when we can have three wikis operated, filled and edited by three, although somewhat overlapping, groups of people?
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Eep Quirk
Absolutely Relative
Join date: 15 Dec 2004
Posts: 1,211
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04-27-2006 05:56
You're missing the obvious efficiency reasoning, Khamon. There's really no reason to HAVE to browse 3 different wikis just to get the information 1 wiki can provide. Crosslinking is a bitch. Have you actually ever done it? I have been for the past few days and it's annoying linking all 3 wikis and trying to weed out info that doesn't belong on one wiki from the others. It's a pain in the ass! Had it just been ONE wiki then it just wouldn't matter.
And just 1 wiki can provide 3x the group of people editing 3 wikis since it would cater to ALL 3 types of people: general, technical, and historical (with overlaps). A single wiki would more likely attract MORE people than even 3 separate wikis would!
Again, the point is: efficiency.
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SuezanneC Baskerville
Forums Rock!
Join date: 22 Dec 2003
Posts: 14,229
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04-27-2006 06:18
Please don't get LL to screw up the scripting wiki.
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Jarod Godel
Utilitarian
Join date: 6 Nov 2003
Posts: 729
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04-27-2006 07:56
From: Eep Quirk I have been for the past few days and it's annoying linking all 3 wikis and trying to weed out info that doesn't belong on one wiki from the others. They're wikis, what information doesn't belong in them? More to the point, what's so hard about cross-linking wikis? Are the different mark-up styles confusing and hard to adjust to -- and despite the fact I am normally a f*ck, that was a serious interface design question. Even Wikipedia links to other sites, and they even link to other wikis, just look at the Brainiac article. Down at the bottom it links to a Superman wiki. (Yes, I have been researching smart, green-skinned beings, what of it?) Having three wikis -- four, because you probably don't know about the Second Life Hacks wiki -- isn't a bad thing, and it's not really all that inefficient. It's just a shift in the way we look at archiving information. If you can get past the cross-linking mark-up hump, just think of the wikis as one big wiki with three or four sub-categories. Personally, my biggest gripe is that it's a P.I.T.A. to link to Scripting Library and Scripting Tips forums. Forget multiple wikis, password-locked forums are what's making it hard to have any decent external Second Life links. There's of good stuff in the forums, but I dislike linking to it since you ave to make sure you're logged in to view it.
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Argent Stonecutter
Emergency Mustelid
Join date: 20 Sep 2005
Posts: 20,263
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04-27-2006 09:28
From: SuezanneC Baskerville Please don't get LL to screw up the scripting wiki. Doubled! There was a Wiki I used once that was hierarchical. I don't recall the details, but it allowed you to split a page up into sub pages (eg: [[Scripting/llSitTarget]]) though the semantics for the sublinks wasn't ideal (from [[Scripting/llSitTarget]] you whould still have to specify something like [[Scripting/llUnSit]], so links weren't automatically relative). Something like this would make merging the Wikis easier: they could each become one sub-wiki and gradually melt together.
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Eep Quirk
Absolutely Relative
Join date: 15 Dec 2004
Posts: 1,211
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04-27-2006 15:12
From: Jarod Godel They're wikis, what information doesn't belong in them? Historical info in the LSL Wiki, for example. Of course, then you have historical LSL-related info which is OK, but general historical info is not. Then, where do you draw the line? It would just be easier if the info was all on the same SINGLE wiki. From: Jarod Godel More to the point, what's so hard about cross-linking wikis? Are the different mark-up styles confusing and hard to adjust to -- and despite the fact I am normally a f*ck, that was a serious interface design question. Reread my original post and you'll see some examples of wiki syntax for links that is different on all 3 wiki software. From: Jarod Godel Even Wikipedia links to other sites, and they even link to other wikis, just look at the Brainiac article. Down at the bottom it links to a Superman wiki. Wikipedia is much more generalized than SL's wikis are, however. I would not, for example, agree to including SL resident websites/wikis on the SL wiki, which is basically analagous to what a link to a Superman wiki from Wikipedia is. From: Jarod Godel Having three wikis -- four, because you probably don't know about the Second Life Hacks wiki -- isn't a bad thing, and it's not really all that inefficient. It's just a shift in the way we look at archiving information. If you can get past the cross-linking mark-up hump, just think of the wikis as one big wiki with three or four sub-categories. Sorry, but that's inefficient to me. There are hacks in the LSL Wiki too. SL hacks could EASILY be in the single SL wiki. From: Jarod Godel Personally, my biggest gripe is that it's a P.I.T.A. to link to Scripting Library and Scripting Tips forums. Forget multiple wikis, password-locked forums are what's making it hard to have any decent external Second Life links. There's of good stuff in the forums, but I dislike linking to it since you ave to make sure you're logged in to view it. Chris Omega has already mentioned, if not is already doing, adding SL forum scripts to the LSL Wiki examples page.
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Eggy Lippmann
Wiktator
Join date: 1 May 2003
Posts: 7,939
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04-27-2006 17:27
From: Sarg Bjornson Ahhh, so Eggy is calling for us to fill the history wiki with all the unsorted pages and crap we can dump on it, hummm?  The History Wiki development process is as follows: 1) Gather raw data. Anything goes. In this digital world of ours information is cleanly disappearing every second without leaving a trace. We can't dig the ground up to find what manner of cities lay here before. This is why I call upon the good will of the SL community to feel free to write about whatever they want. Put up your portfolio. Use it for a blog. Whatever. 2) Sit on it. Let it simmer. Time will tell what was relevant, so we can filter out the crap later on. It's a lot easier to filter a ton of data than to go around SL interviewing each individual resident and taking notes about each individual build, etc. 3) In the process of cleaning up and linking things to one another, patterns will emerge from the chaos. This is when we gather several pages into an article, offering insight and commentary on what SL is now, how and why it got here, etc.
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Khamon Fate
fategardens.net
Join date: 21 Nov 2003
Posts: 4,177
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04-27-2006 17:52
Well yes Eggy that's how wikis work; it's exactly the process that the software was developed to facilitate.
Apparently some people would rather impose stringent models of efficient permission rather than putting the effort into weeding through brainstorms and general data dumps. The wikis are working correctly as they are. The model doesn't require that everyone understand what's happening.
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Eggy Lippmann
Wiktator
Join date: 1 May 2003
Posts: 7,939
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04-27-2006 18:17
Eggzactly - a lot of people complain they don't know anything "historical enough". That's what I want to clear up - most RL historical artifacts such as clay tablets are STUPID CRAP, like shopping lists and stuff... it doesn't have to be insightful, or a work of art, or anything. Plus, it doesn't have to be about something old - if you write about the present, no matter how trivial it seems to you, it may turn out to be important later. Write first, ask questions later. Leave it up to us. We generally avoid deleting things, preferring to expand them or reworking it into some other article so your efforts won't go to waste. Heck, I generally contact any new contributors I notice expressing my gratitude with a personal note. We're not elitists here. It's your wiki. Go crazy 
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Dyne Talamasca
Noneuclidean Love Polygon
Join date: 9 Oct 2005
Posts: 436
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04-27-2006 18:25
From: Eep Quirk Wikipedia is much more generalized than SL's wikis are, however. I would not, for example, agree to including SL resident websites/wikis on the SL wiki, So if I set up a website or wiki specifically for, say, Caledon, then you believe it wouldn't be appropriate to link to it from an article on Caledon? (I realize that the History wiki is not the SL wiki, but you want to merge them.) I'd have to disagree. You are already linking to resident content that when you crosslink between the three wikis, since all three wikis can be edited by residents. In particular, the history wiki IS a resident website/wiki that you are linking on the SL wiki. From: someone Sorry, but that's inefficient to me. There are hacks in the LSL Wiki too. SL hacks could EASILY be in the single SL wiki. If you want them there, copy them there. It's a wiki, after all.
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Eep Quirk
Absolutely Relative
Join date: 15 Dec 2004
Posts: 1,211
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04-27-2006 18:33
From: Dyne Talamasca So if I set up a website or wiki specifically for, say, Caledon, then you believe it wouldn't be appropriate to link to it from an article on Caledon? (I realize that the History wiki is not the SL wiki, but you want to merge them.)
I'd have to disagree.
You are already linking to resident content that when you crosslink between the three wikis, since all three wikis can be edited by residents. In particular, the history wiki IS a resident website/wiki that you are linking on the SL wiki. I am referring to personal ego websites/wikis. However, a wiki just about Caledon, if it was large enough, could warrant its own wiki. It's a grey area. From: Dyne Talamasca If you want them there, copy them there. It's a wiki, after all. The point is for OTHER people to contribute to a SINGLE wiki, Dyne.
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Dyne Talamasca
Noneuclidean Love Polygon
Join date: 9 Oct 2005
Posts: 436
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04-27-2006 19:14
From: Eep Quirk The point is for OTHER people to contribute to a SINGLE wiki, Dyne. I realize that, but it doesn't seem like you are convincing many people that it's necessary to do so, and making no progress at all on which one to contribute to. Which is not an easy choice, as there are strengths and weaknesses to all of them, and people's priorities and goals differ: Some people don't want to stray outside of the Linden site. Some people prefer the flexibility of being outside it. Some people don't like one or another, or even all three of the software packages. Some people want something very general for some things (random info on the world), and very narrowly aimed for others (scripting). Some people don't care one way or the other, and are content to use what's there. So probably your best bet is to just pick a wiki and convince whoever to let you add whatever to it, if need be. If that makes it more useful than the others, then over time, people may gravitate there. If not, then at least it serves your purposes to have the info you need in one place. For me, the question is more or less moot. I only contribute to a single SL wiki for 99% of what I write already, and I have no intention of moving to another one at present. For reading, I ignore the SL wiki entirely, and I see no great need to merge the history wiki and the LSL wiki ... it's just as easy for me to go straight to badgeo for LSL stuff as it is to go to a hypothetical LSL category on a unified wiki.
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SuezanneC Baskerville
Forums Rock!
Join date: 22 Dec 2003
Posts: 14,229
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04-27-2006 19:28
When I look at the secondlife.com/tiki wiki now, there is no search function, and at the bottom of the page it says "Created by" but doesn't show who it was created by.
I don't see a versions link for the page one is on.
These changes are a result of the last improvement to the tiki wiki.
I don't think the LSL wiki needs this sort of improvement.
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So long to these forums, the vBulletin forums that used to be at forums.secondlife.com. I will miss them.
I can be found on the web by searching for "SuezanneC Baskerville", or go to
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Members: Ben, Catherine, Colin, Cory, Dan, Doug, Jim, Philip, Phoenix, Richard, Robin, and Ryan
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Eep Quirk
Absolutely Relative
Join date: 15 Dec 2004
Posts: 1,211
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04-27-2006 19:36
From: SuezanneC Baskerville When I look at the secondlife.com/tiki wiki now, there is no search function, and at the bottom of the page it says "Created by" but doesn't show who it was created by.
I don't see a versions link for the page one is on.
These changes are a result of the last improvement to the tiki wiki.
I don't think the LSL wiki needs this sort of improvement. This is because TikiWiki is crap. MediaWiki is much better, but I'd still prefer a cross between MediaWiki and WakkaWiki for aformentioned reasons. Perhaps Eggy and Oz could run the single SL Wiki--but keep it on LL's servers and be more open to changes (like allowing registered users to edit the main page, etc).
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Usagi Musashi
UM ™®
Join date: 24 Oct 2004
Posts: 6,083
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04-27-2006 20:07
Thes forums are alittle confusing now.....with seems be going thur the same problem. Does sue agree with everything at all times.
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