Attachment 1.8.2 culling: Violating Freedom of Expression and COMPLETELY IMPRACTICAL

It looks good, but I think you'll find you be able to move better if you wear the dress without any undergarments for it to catch on. I suggest giving that a try and posting another picture.

Because we haven't been given the chance to preview the change?

I agree, having this on Preview for a few weeks would have been an ideal solution.

According to whom?

No sizes have been discussed. The fact that there is a slider indicates that "insignificant" will be up to the decision of the user. I'm sorry, but your analysis is based on false assumption.

That is true but as has already been pointed out the client is already rather configurable. Your appearance already very much depends on client settings. You seem to have in mind that it will suddenly drop all attachments on the avatar once you get a few meters away, which is pretty silly. We might not expect LL to always do things great but that's getting way past the glass being half empty into something like LL stole your glass and replaced it with a hand grenade without a pin.

Practical demonstration of attachment removal. This is from 25M, where I imagine attachments sitting at under around 0.3 or less would be dropped.

Left:
2x paws
2x forearms
2x feet
Backpack
Head
Tail

Right:
Head
Tail

OK, I think Hiro's post is needlessly melodramatic, but I've already learned to allow for that. And... there really isn't enough information in the original announcement to tell whether there's a problem or not.

If you have avatar detail tuned down to 50%, what does that mean? What's the distance limit at which it'll start culling attachments? If it culls them at half my draw distance, that's not likely to make a huge difference. If it starts dropping prims at ten meters, that's going to make a lot of people pretty unhappy.

This sounds like a good idea to me, and I don't really see the free expression argument.

Free expression says you have the right to speak, but not that anyone has to listen. If I don't want to see your avatar, there's no reason why I should have to wait for all its attachments to download. If I do want to see your avatar then, well, I won't mind walking over to where you are so you're within the distance of no clipping.

But that's speculation at this point. We dont know how attachments will be decided to drop, or at what priority, or what distance. Thats the problem.

Exactly, no reason to create drama yet. Just ask your question in the Second Life Answers forum and it will get some attention.
And besides Karen has already said she will give us more info monday.

I think this is one of those times when a long and sorid history of ill-tested and ill-concieved changes to SL have made me bitter and jaded, tending to suspect the worst until proven wrong.

Correct.

And it means if they choose to listen, your speech should not be modifyable.

If we're going to have a fit about people being able to decide how much prim-attachment detail they want at a distance, we should also be throwing a fit about the ability to turn off Local Lighting and Shiny.

By turning off Local Lighting and Shiny, you are viewing my builds in a way other than the way I intended when I incorporated Shiny and Light into them, and therefore you are selectively not seeing a part of my build, out of the sheer selfishness of improving your own framerate.

You bastards!

Um, not viewing every part of your avatar is a far cry from being able to modify it myself.

If you write a post, and I don't have time to read all of it so I just read the beginning and end, does that mean I've "modified" your post?

lol, Jonquille wins the thread.

I'm sorry.

No wait, I mean by the quantities of textures at Little Rebel you have deprived me of my right to have a lag free experience in a small area of Gallinas. Bastid!

The TOS makes it pretty clear that players are entitled not to suffer unnecessary lag.

http://wired-vig.wired.com/news/business/0,1367,42803,00.html

Read this article about a browser plug-in called "Third Voice". It let people add comments to websites that people who used the plug-in to see everyone else's comments. It was blasted by many, many websites as "web graffiti".

Also, consider the variety of ad spy-wear out there that push pop-ups on pages.

And the bottom line, when you load a website, you don't load part of a page, you load all of it. The whole page is meant to be the expression of the creator. When a browser can't properly display all of a webpage, that's considered a bug, not a feature.


No, because it's displayed all to you. You chose to look at some parts quickly.

Attachments are not the only source of lag.

What's worse - this only stops the DRAWING of attachments. The real lag from attachments comes from the scripts inside them.

Well, while I don't exactly think this is a constitutional issue, I am a bit worried about the implementation here, and how it will effect Luskwood avatars and other attachment avs.

It depends on how quick the culling is, whether its draw-distance or zoom-based, and what that distance is.

My concern is whether or not newbies will end up having issues with our avatars.

I definitely would have appreciated access to a preview in this situation, since it does have the potential to get very hairy and break a lot of existing content.

This is gonna be something we're gonna have to wrestle with I'm sure; the default setting may be fine for folks with just hairpieces; I'd presume that it hasn't been tested on attachment avs.

I disagree here. I used to (long ago of course) use a dial up connection. I had a setting on mine that would let me choose how much bandwidth to use for graphics on a page. Most of the time I would cut off all images. Sometimes I would allow small ones or selectively load ones I wanted to see. This is exactly what LL is going to allow as far as I understand and I am all for it.

Yeah, but there's no "load 1/2 of a graphic" option. You either load it or don't. An AV is not something that should be chopped up unless that's the intention of the owner.

Exactly.

And many people are you using a popup/banner blocker. And some of these even a have a slider to set your own maximum/minimum comfort level of blocking.

Your assumptions are based upon wild speculation without having seen the actual implementation. You are hardly in a position to criticize someone as having their analysis be based on false assumption.

I agree that it is a somewhat cheap way of getting SL performance up to reasonable levels. It would be nice if SL ran as well as other games. However, all other games have character models and levels designed by skilled 3D artists, squeezing every possible polygon out of the mesh while maintaing visual quality. These other 3D games also have detail sliders, and the 3D artists need to make sure their characters look acceptable from all distances.

In SL, we have people inserting 3D objects into a game, and they have ZERO training or experience, and probably most don't even know what a polygon means in terms of 3D game performance. Someone earlier in the thread mentioned having 200 prims on their face just for piercings. How much of that could be replaced by a single texture? I once saw a pair of boots that had fur trimming. On a closer look, it wasn't a couple of intersected texture planes....it was primfur...HUNDREDS of tiny prim hairs all twisted and curled.

I'm willing to accept a tradeoff, as long as we are talking about tiny prims that really would only use ten or twelve pixels at 10 meters (possibly the minimum slider setting?). And yes, it would have been nice to have a preview.

But right now, it's common to have prims not appear at all for over a minute. Bald people, deformed tinies, etc.

This update may actually cause MORE avatars to appear as the creators desired: for example, the primhair sets on the people nearby will not be rezzing for five minutes because someone 30 meters away has 800 prims of jewelry underneath 200 prim robot armor.

Philip was in the Ahern Welcome Area a few days ago bragging about the great performance from an unreleased client version. If he's personally tested it and liked it, I think we should reserve judgement until after the client launches.

(Philip also denied any knowledge of plans to make SL multithreaded to take advantage of the dual-core processors that will be almost all that will be sold within the year. The fact that dual-core proccessors are already getting somewhat common seemed to come as a surprise.)

holy cow guys look how many bugs internet explorer has that violate freedom of expression



microsoft will pay for this in court!!!

edit: wtf!!!

You have the right to display yourself any way you see fit. That however doesn't mean that I have to look at you at all or in any preconceived way. Would you say a colorblind person is cheating you out of your freedom of expression?

This is all rather asinine and has no basis in reality.

Point blank period, you have no say over the way I perceive this world or any other.

Edit: Points go to Masakazu. XD