Open Spaces Announcement & Talk with M and Jack Linden

Sure....that's not a bug..it's a feature! So we cannot make our own evaluations with respect to the new policy announced.

Oh, how cynical of you Ravenmyst (said very much tongue-in-cheek)

What a time to enforce a 67% increase in tier pricing! This game is an optional luxury, and I'll be damned if I am going to pay 125/month to play here. So, Lindens, you can kiss all of the lovely, vibrant sailing communities goodbye. Great timing!

Felix, so you won't mind if tomorrow they say you can keep your private island at the same tier of $295, but instead of 15,000 prim you will now only have 3000 prim, OR you can only have your island prim reduced to 10,000 prim, pay $500 US tier monthly AND your island will now have an unnamed script limit, and you can now only have half the number of avatars on your island. That would be perfectly fair and reasonable to you, yes?

I also own one regular island and no OS, but I am a REAL person and not a company shill trying to make false statements about the company being FAIR -- And unlike a company shill, I can see if LL gets away with a 67 percent price hike AND reducing the customer's goods by half, with Open Spaces, then what would keep them from doing exactly the same or worse to those who just have regular islands?

My thought to those with OS less than 4, join up with a few other OS owners and demand LL cut out owner transfer fee so that quads can be formed for a FAIR trade to a full private island -- and LL offer as good faith one free transfer of the new island to a single owner so those who own the OS can cash out by selling the new island.

Right now LL has made the value of OS into total CRAP. The only good thing is being able to trade 4 OS into 1 regular Sim which had better be a private island and not worthless mainland.

This Christmas I *WAS* going to buy three of my friends a year premium. Screw that now. I also *WAS* going go buy my love an OS because she likes sailing and is a prim hog -- It would have been the perfect attachment to my island, a place for us to swim and sail and water bike --- but a nearly prim-less, script-less OS is worth CRAP, so screw that too. Good move LL, I'm glad you announced that now so I won't waste any more money buying stuff from you guys. I'm glad I had not started Christmas shopping and investing more real US dollars into SL. So this saves me an immediate 6 hundred or so US dollars in money NOT to be invested in SL, plus my eventual plans to buy more land.. yes I was thinking another regular island in 2009 to help out friends who needed land at cost but couldn't buy whole islands themselves... Not gonna happen.

Linden Labs policies has shown it's UNTRUSTWORTHY and BAD INVESTMENT --- So no more of my real money gonna go to them for expansion. I most likely will transfer my already bought island's ownership to one of my friends who shares the island with me, and cancel out my premium or just keep my one premium and have my friends cancel their premiums -- we all got them and now that this CRAP has happen, no reason to support LL with all of us keeping Premiums when only the island owner needs to keep it. So LL gonna lose multiple premium memberships --- and if LL does to us regular island owners what it's doing to the OS owners, I'm gonna have SERIOUS talks with my friends on whether it's worth owning land in SL at all.

We aren't just a few upset people... we are an upset PAYING COMMUNITY. As a paying community that is threatened to be hugely ripped off by 67 percent price hikes and 50 percent content losses, we should, and many of us will, leave SL. LL may decide it's worth losing a few people... out of the many... but keep in mind we premium account land owners are the few out of that many who actually pump real dollars INTO SL and who LL makes money off DIRECTLY.

Linden Lab SHOULD refund the OS owners. Because changing the product so hugely after it's purchase IS bait and switch. I hope LL does get sued for this if they don't give a REAL fair deal to it's paying residents. I'm not an OS owner, but I stand with them against the RIP OFF that LL has announced. Today it is the OS owners, tomorrow the main island owners, and left unchecked no one who owns property in SL will be untouched.

With the national and world economy in dire times, hugely wrongful actions by Linden Labs is making it very EASY for a lot of paying SL residents to make spending on and in SL the necessary budget cut.

Bliss Crimson

"The journey of a thousand miles begins with a single step." --- From boom town to ghost town... just a single cyber step repeated by many.

the lindens should really post their entries under their own names

Optional luxury is right, and how many of the unemployed folks at IBM, GM, HP are going to be able to continue to pay for the high-priced luxury that Second Life is fast becoming?

A still-employed single person who makes US$60,000 per year brings home around US$3,800 per month after state and federal taxes (in a relatively low-tax state such as Missouri). US$125 per month is about 3.3% of this gross income and that's BEFORE paying the mortgage or rent, the car payment, utilities, food, clothing, student loans, health insurance etc., etc., etc.

I would think that many single people in SL at this level of RL income are probably very much contributors to what makes SL so attractive -- innovative building, game playing, art galleries, etc. Taking away the space to innovate by making it prohibitively expensive seems to be contrary to the interests of even the Lindens because it reduces the appeal of SL, and thus reduces income -- directly or indirectly through fewer direct land sales, or fewer people buying clothing, art, skins, etc., which reduces the incentive to put up a commercial establishment and pay for land on which to do so.

Also, with the economic downturn, increasing land prices willl most likely cause what happens in RL under the same circumstances - build to the max to recoup investment. So, even if you keep prims low and limit avatar numbers, you most likely will end up with 4-6 low-prim rental homes on Homestead Land when, with lower prices, you might have 1 or 2 more attractive buidlings, with a lot of nice lanscaping.

In addition, why not do what really needs to be done? Clean up the mainland by imposing zoning and land use regulations so that when you buy a piece of land there, you know what kind of neighbors you will have and you don't lose your investment when that strip club moves in next door. People who don't want to build or write scripts could then purchase a smaller lot without being worried so much about privacy and useability.

Then, those SL citizens who have more assets or want to run a business could buy higher-priced Homestead Land if they wanted even more privacy than zoning and building restrictions provide on the mainland.

Or, maybe the Lindens don't want to upset their direct mainland customers, but instead choose to let estate owners bear the brunt of their tenants' wrath.

Has anyone considered a boycott of SL for a week or so? Impacting the pocket book is usually an effective way to get a point across.

And, at this point, I don't really care if I somehow get zinged for making that last comment. I was just learning to build, and had a nice idea for low-level use of a 1/4 of an OS sim (975 prims). I was really enjoying my foray into 3-D buiilding, learning about textures, spending money on things to help me learn. I don't so much want to go back to hanging out at bars and dancing. So, if SL is priced so that I can't get those benefits at a reasonable cost (without having to give up what I need in RL), then who needs it anyway.

Maybe the Lindens supported McCain.

If Linden alts were posting in this thread, that would mean that Lindens were reading it, and sadly, that is but wishful thinking.

Life is a song: http://de.youtube.com/watch?v=4Z2ljWwIaHs&feature=related
People coming and going like in a train station.

of course they do qie not those who should read it of course, but lots of the others.

you know - when you have a blogpost with over 5000 comments in a few days (including the earlier thread which they hid) of course the employees are curious

One thing that's probably calculated to bother, is when a politician says "I understand your rage and frustration."
"One thing I learned and others were reminded about in this process is that we have a very connected, passionate Resident base and we need to bring you into the dialog earlier, before putting forward these decisions."
Let's keep those Cursed Passions coming, would be a better response.

I thought Null Sim Pricing was a mistake when I saw it. One Quarter the resources, for one quarter the price? We'll have Open Grid, soon, and something should be expected, if only for the registration on the Map, although this might be folded into the profits of trading in L$ ( which Lindex refuses to do.)

Still, Null Sims were sold at one price, which is intimately involved with Tier, and raising the Tier is a way of renegging, on the deal, after the paperwork has been signed, and the legality of this could even be questioned. If it's legal, the ToS can only have made it so, in a high handed fashion that'll damage future dealling. Is someone trying to hurt business enough to drive down stock values? I'm likely to be losing friends, simply because of the momentum started in protesting this policy.

First, stop selling, at a questionable price, then, only if desperation justifies the loss of good-will, increase the price on what's already been sold, and be ready to buy back with gratitude. I understand there remain accounts which are neither basic nor premium, but had been grandfathered in, after beta testing, something like, No Payment Info On File - Payment Info Used. Grandfather the Open Sims Unwisely Sold, and sell enough Open Spaces on a viable model, to cover the brilliant burst of idiocy.

I shouldn't be the one to explain basic business principles.

Arawn

There are many out there in SL that run short events like fishing contests and such that take very little prims, scripting, but take a lot of people. The average one i have attended has anywhere from 10-25 contestants.

I sometimes have gatherings at my place that over time can grow to over 20 people. Why are my friends being turned away? How should i explain that they can not fish or come over and relax with me? I guess i will send the blame to LL, "I'm am sorry you can not come over here, but Jack and M Linden have decided that i am only allowed to have 20 friends.

Limiting your customers like this is ridiculous...it now seems that no matter which way we turn, we the little man, will have to carry around some screwdrivers because WE ARE GETTING SCREWED!!!!

What had started as a world of fun and exploration with a great company in charge of it has changed into a world where ,like in RL, the only concern of the big company in charge is more money

DOES ANYONE HAVE A NICE WATERFRONT PARCEL FOR RENT AT AN INEXPENSIVE PRICE????? LOOKS LIKE I WILL BE LOOKING FOR A NEW HOME AS THE PLACE I AM ON WILL BE RAISING ABOVE MY MEANS!!

It's more buried than hidden, at /354/1d/289652/1.html. When they locked that thread so people would move over here, it soon sunk off the front page of that forum as other threads got more recent posts. Also, in this new forum, they thought to disallow creation of new threads--with the result that all new threads are still being created in that other forum, further burying that original thread.

As to Lindens reading this thread: you may be right about that. In which case, a shout-out to Soft, and Kelly, and Andrew, and Guy, and Qarl, and... you know, all the *good* Lindens.

There are many good Lindens, even those who appear to have been tempted by the dark side of the force have good qualities. However they need to fix this and fix it quick.

Bad customer relations last a lot longer in the memory than good customer relations, it's an unfortunate human trait.

if there are any good lindens - how come that i never see them in sl nowadays. years ago it was common to meet a linden, even one of the more prominent ones. but they have gone into hiding in their bunkers

No no, they're not in hiding, they're in shopping malls and bars across America, spending all your hard earned cash and contemplating future earnings.

89,612 Views
and
2282 Posts from concerned residents = 5 Posts from Jacks and None from M ?

They are not very talkative are they ?

I think it shows how much they really do care...

Since they cannot openly proposition residents, they are screwing you from behind in stealth mode. They get you to fork over millions of dollars of your hard earned cash, then nail ya in the keester with increased prices with lower capabilities. It all makes sense.

Facts are facts and this is not a compromise and if Linden Lab thinks it is they need to get themselves a dictionary which is unfortunately consistent with much of Linden Lab's language of double talk and spin.

1. Linden Lab is drastically cutting back prim limits, avatar limits, prohibiting any rental use whatsoever and implementing script limitations for compliant Openspace Sims. Compliant SL residents will be getting less value for the same cost. If we use the prim reduction as a ratio they are charging the same price for a quarter of the previous value in services provided.

2. Linden Lab is cutting back avatar limits and implementing script limits on non-compliant Openspace Sims now to be called Homestead Sims and are implementing an automatic increase in tier on January and the ultimately still exorbitant 67% increase in tier.

Under this revised plan Linden Lab is actually now providing even less than what they were in the original pricing change plan for the same pro rata increase in tier for all current Openspace Sim owners, both compliant and non-compliant. I see nothing to applaud here. It reminds me of an old line that Abbott used to use on Costello to sucker him into doing something that Costello didn't want to do in their old movies.

Abbott: You go in there first (usually a dangerous place) and I'll go in second.
Costello: Oh no. I'm not going in there first.
Abbott: Fine fine fine. I'LL go in second and you go in first.
Costello: Okay! That sounds better!

Without offering an opportunity for residents to return their Openspace sims in exchange for a full or at least substantial portion of the overall purchase price there is absolutely zero compromise in this revised plan. It is all about serving Linden Lab's interests. This pseudo-compromise is nothing but pure spin.

A company will do nothing until it hurts its pocketbook.

It is already happening.

Instead of raising revenue like they thought this price increase would, they are losing money because people are leaving, and dumping their land. -228 islands lost so far this month, compared to 1045 islands gained last month.

They will be sued and investigated by FTC for bait and switch when they involuntarily switch people into an inferior product with higher price without any opt out option.

They gave a big boost to the OpenSim community to accelerate the exodus to a community-based product that is created by the people, for the people. They are helping their competitors by this arrogant move disregarding their customer-base, which in effect, shooting themselves in the foot big time.

We will have choices and viable alternatives within a year when OpenSim goes from alpha to beta phase, and see how Linden goes down the tube at the same time.

Jack, any chance of LL sending all residents a free tube if Preparation H? Because you already have us bent over with our pants around our ankles, and I can just feel a real sore ass coming on the horizon.

I have an open sim, use 975 prims total.... 1 small 4 room house, about maybe 40 scripts, and the rest is all parkland, yet I'm gonna be liable for 66% increase..... come end of december... bye bye, im not willing to bend over any further, If i cant sell it, im abandoning it, downgrading to free acct, and become a homeless wanderer. I'v already got a sizeable wardrobe, so dont need more clothes, so no need to spend any more money.... ill just hang with my friends and not give you 1 cent more.

A fair price i am willing to pay..... but this...... you can kiss my rear if you think your getting 1 cent more

While many have already responded, and I am reluctant to repeat the obvious, I suspect that repetition and having everyone's voice heard may have an impact -- not directly, of course, as it is obvious LL is not listening, but I'm sure some of the investors and their people have an eye on this forum. And nothing makes an investor more nervous than a decline of money into their investment.

So, having said that, here's my few pennies.

YES, WE WERE/ARE SCREWED -- THE GREAT EXODUS OF CREATIVITY/BEAUTY

The math is obvious. No one can afford a true OSS. What does this mean? Creativity and artistry as well as pretty scenes will be gone from SL's landscape in the next month. With an immanent huge price increase, there is no reason to stay.

HSS really are not a value. They make no sense. I don't see many rental businesses jumping on this one. Although they do keep a certain Land Baroness happy.


POSSIBLE RESOLUTIONS

They've been mentioned already in spades and most are great. I'm a fan of three different types of Islands -- full Island, quarter resource Island for rentals, quarter to eighth resource Island for landscape. All priced appropriately, of course (USD75 for 750 prims -- what on Earth?). Landscape Islands should be a fraction of the cost.

AND/OR Two payment systems -- business/merchant and personal use. If someone wishes to rent out sims or parts thereof, or run a business on their Island(s), they should pay a higher rate than Jane Q. Public who wants to create a space of experimentation, artistry or just to live on (even if shared with others -- but without compensation). Of course LL doesn't have to police this -- just add another AR category and the public will police it (citizens of SL love a good lynching, it seems).

AND/OR Return to a pay system. I mean, hell, this is all about money isn't it, LL? While you do not need a premium account to own an Island, and you do for mainland, why not make some money by levelling out this requirement? OR... institute a pay only system and rid SL of a large percentage of griefers and problem makers? Yes, I know that not everyone in the world can use credit cards, money orders, bank wires, paypal etc., but if LL was really interested in making more money, this is an option (not the best one, mind).


THE REAL DAMAGE

I see numerous (former) Island/OSS owners leaving SL. The homeless will either relocate, no longer rent or leave SL themselves. This will set off a chain reaction. Less people, less spending, less money to LL.

And of course, even IF (and this is a huge IF) LL comes back with Offer 3 (return of the killer offer), will anyone trust that offer? LL has burnt their reputation and damaged it irrevocably. LL is sitting on their laurels and instead of fixing their buggy code (which WE KNOW EMPHATICALLY IS THE ROOT CAUSE OF ALL THIS RESOURCE CONSUMPTION), they are looking for ways to pad their pockets before they die off. Perhaps LL knows the end is near and is just scrambling for the last few dollars they can sucker out of everyone before they go belly up.


THE FUTURE

The future is with another organization. Virtual worlds are great and need to be in the hands of users and not a corporation, much like the WWW. Only then will it prosper. A non functioning or poor corporation will always fail. Always. After all, we are a bit more savvy these days given all the technological changes we have seen.


As for me. I still think SL is worth hanging around it. I don't plan on vacating yet. I will hold my mainland, sell my wares, provide little rentals and enjoy what time I can spend in SL until they switch it off forever... which may be far more immanent than we think. I am not normally one to spell gloom and doom -- in fact, I'm a pretty happy and unaffected kitty, but what LL is doing is not business savvy and it's not cool -- they're business stupid and they've damaged their rep and their investors are about to scream.

I think, after they start to lose OS and some of beeing convert to full sims they will see they made the wrong decision... But that i think they know that already.
Im just woundering if they are going to drop the prices again so they can charge ppl again to converting full sims to OS.

That means we are going to pay two convertions for the same sims.

Yes, thanks for the link. Silly argument ... if I claim 400 prims is enough is that then better? Just because someone dropped 750 prims on a sim doesn't mean its enough to do a good build. I mentioned you picked the wrong person to argue about what is needed to create a good realisitic region. Of course our vision of 'good' or 'realistic' are totally different, but thats the beauty of SL I guess.

I had a look, while it's probably better than what a lot of people can do with 750 prims, I think it a good example of why 750 prims is not enough. Bumps and basic trees should not be enough content for users to express their imagination, even more-so when you consider the average user is not that experienced or artistic, not to mention the fact that owners should keep a few prims free.

To get more / better detail one would need more prims - although better use of more advanced sculpts will help too. But everyone has their own opinion I guess.

Re: "And how can you decide what all users want to do anyway?" ... I am a user ... the same as you - how can YOU decide?

If LL can increase the prims to around 1875 (or even 1500) then the product can be useful. If not, then instead of a base OS at 750 prims (which very few can use) they might do better with a base OS at 400 prims at $30 tier and host more on a server - at least that can be useful as a real void for full sims to 'wrap' around their sims - both a visual landscape break, as well as a perfomance buffer to the next full sim - it'll still be useless to most users who just want a place of their own - but then the 750 is too.

As far as sculpts (even prim builds maybe) go, I'd say there's very few that can't learn from his work - have a look at or some of the other links in his profile. Potentially 400 prims x (those 1/3rd prim palms i mentioned) is 1200 palm trees - that'll do a hell of a lot more landscaping than you have there - with around half the prims.

As for "getting over it", unfortunately there are many people who cannot afford the 67% upgrade who will essentially lose a lot of investment they have put into it. Thats just not fair and its pathetic business to force that on customers. So no, I won't "get over it".

The point is 750 prims is not enough for the users who now have 3750 and can't afford $125. Probably many of them can handle a reducion to 1875 with no tier change. It's quite different for users now buying OS's as they are aware they'll only have 750 prims.


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I think you got the anal-agy about right!

On the other hand you may just be on of the very few that might make it ... there is a chance they will increase the 750 prims a little, and you arn't using a LOT of yours - of course you'll want to keep some free.

Not sure how the 'not for residential' clause will catch you with that house though ... dunno how the hell they are going to try enforce that one - what does it matter if theres a cabin, or even 2 cabins?! Its just prims! Or if you spend some time on a chair in that cabin watching the sun set - as opposed to sitting on the open terrain - bloody rediculous. Maybe as a workaround, change the cabin for a large Oak tree and get a bird AV.

All rediculous. One can understand a small increase if they screwed up with prices (maybe $75 -> $95), but $125 AND tighter restrictions!!! Pass that tube around!

The conversions are free if done before the date set, not sure they'd make it free going from full to OS too if they did make that decision, as too many will jump on that I think. Maybe they will for those who had to go through this. Who knows, and based on what happened here (and before) ... who can make a reasonable safe guess?