Open Spaces Announcement & Talk with M and Jack Linden

But then please post also, what have changed

"Please refer to Openspace FAQ for changes effective January 1, 2009."

Don't provide the half fact.

Thanks a good reminder there I wonder if all this is also related to this blog post here

http://blog.secondlife.com/2008/10/28/ongoing-updates-from-the-grid-from-fj-linden/



Seems an AOL repeat here at LL with upgrading the infrastructure and with an ex AOL'er here at LL it makes you wonder doesn't it

Hehe, I'm not siding to LL, i only have a different sight. Each coin have two sides and many ppl want see only the side with numbers. And "no" i don't own land, i've rented some spots for my business but this isn't the same.

Thanks for the compliment [/QUOTE]

Tut mir leid, ich bin schlecht in Deutch!

I'll answer that tho about owning land. I am ex concierge on main. I've owned 1/2 a private island before now (from the same landlady actually). I've had everything except owning a full private island in fact.

I've rented homes (I paid up front for 6 months for a little spot for one of my groups which had basic members in it, the island transfer was messed up and the island confiscated from the owner: she gave me my rental back out of her own pocket because even though it was LL who messed up she had to bear the costs).

I think if you have never owned then it is hard to empathise, lol. I've cashed out ages ago and still think that was the right decision.

Discussions in the sailing community indicate that a limit of 750 prims and 10 avatars for 75 USD will be VERY difficult for us. I would like to suggest 1500 prims for 50 USD. That would make sailing AND golf (probably) possible. Putting a limit on the number of avatars would make it VERY easy for griefing of a sailing or golf event to take place. Simply teleport in a bunch of avatars... the boats try to enter and "BAM" they get a region full message. I would be happy if you took my four OS sims and put them on the same CPU. That way if I am lagging I am lagging myself.

Jack... M... all the Lindens... I have been a strong supporter of LL and Second Life. I was so disheartened by the initial policy... and in this one you SAY that you have listened to us...but you have not listened well. I don't believe you really understand your customer base.

In the real world, people "learn" the economic realities of whatever business they are in and adjust their costs and plans so that they can earn a profit / return on their investment. When LL initiated the changes to the Open Spaces product, I adjusted my business model. We did NOT put in malls, amusement parks, etc... we put in sims with roughly 60% water. The small profit that we were able to get helped support the Open Spaces that had no tenants. This model helped us grow sailing and made golf more viable.

All of that changed on Black Monday. The initial changes that you promulgated made MY financial plan worthless. The changes that you have suggested aren't much better. Let me explain... what attracts people to rent / lease / buy land in the USS-SL? The proximity to golf and sailing! If THOSE two things go away...then the attraction of the Homestead sims is going to plummet. SO if you don't fix the OS problem...then I won't be able to attract people to the Homestead sims.

If you don't fix the OS problem... well to be honest sometimes my finger just hovers over the "abandon land" button.

I sincerely hope that you truly listen to us this time. PLEASE listen.

Thanks

If it was 20 dollars full then frankly I have spent that in an eyeblink and not cared. However that was my choice.

If I had spent 20 dollars, had something delivered then had it confiscated by the vendor and cut in four, then sent back to me with a note telling me I had to give them 50 dollars extra a month instead of 20 soon - that would be extortion.

RICO predicates anyone? (yes this is a joke)

New Openspace tier price per prim = $75/750 = $0.1 per prim.
Old Openspace tier price per prim = $75/3750 = $0.02 per prim.
Mainland tier price per prim = $195/15000 = $0.013 per prim.

New price increase = 500% compared to old Openspace = 769% compared to Mainland.

WTF, is M Linden out of his mind?

Wouldn't this basically be doom, Nber? I mean, what about big boats? I always hoped we'd have a serious effort later to have boats with crews that actually need the crews to function. How could you have a race with boats with crews of, say, 5 people?

I mean, like on the weekends when you guys do your sailing lessons. You have takos out there tooling around with two people in them, you have people out there enjoying sailing recreation at the same time. You could easily have 10 people in an openspace under those conditions without any griefing.

And during the cup races, there aren't more than 10 sailboats in an openspace at once? To me, this seems like the death of anything but personal sailing, and probably sailing in any heavily traveled area altogether.

Hi All..first time poster here...

I have bought my OS SIM in june from Fantasyland Estate... I dont have a full region
and im not a premium member... but i got Estate Ownership
My SIM is 95 % Residential (No Public Acces) and a little shop in a corner

An ideal situation for me,cuz i have no covenant,and 3750 prims are just enough
I do have more scripts running than water or a forrest does,so i think my OS will become a homestead...
If price goes up to 95$, i can live with that... I really like my island,and i dont see myself going back to a 4096 sq m plot...
But 125$ is a lot of money,so i think some benefits can be expected on a Homestead compared to an OS....
Like maybe 7500 prims (2 Homesteads on a CPU?)....

I feel like the Torch at the moment... so here goes..
'Flame on'

Once again the Lindens are at it!
Dropppin a 'hot potato' in our lap and then just sit back and wait to see the outcome..
I started going through the responses to this and haven't seen any responses here from the Lindens to everyones concerns.
They will push through this proposed price increase by any means they see fit.
If like me you currently live on an OS region, I have 4 homes there for myself and my friends, we have a quiet sim, no real heavy use of scripts and there is an ample amount of prims left in reserve too, with water and woodland features too.
I recently bought a full prim region, which is still under construction, and may as I said in another posting, move to that, thereby scuppering my plans for both regions! As you'll be pricing me out of the two of them!
The £/$ affects us in the UK more than it affects you I bet, as we have to pay out of OUR pockets to use this place, while you... well you just rake it in!
On that point I have a Q for the Lindens.
This so-called price increase, will it include V.A.T. that we in Europe have to pay if we buy land in SL, and will this be added to the monthly tier fee? I bet it will. If so then that increase will cripple us more so than people from the US, surely!
I currently pay a tier to my Estate Owner for an OS region and was up untiil this point, considering buying it and moving it next to my region, as I could afford to do both, prior to this price hike, but now in the long term, I won't be able to do that at all.

This is something that you (LL) have planned for a while now I bet, it smacks of it.
Drop a bombshell in amongst the very people who use the place and wait and see what hapens, then take stock of the response. Then go back to the table and then discuss (in private). Q "What's the next move?" A: put Plan A/B/C etc in place to adapt to the situation. All of the above include price increases... scaled at different levels but all amount to the same increase, just phased differently!
Currently Plan A... moving to plan B.. two price hikes!

You muppets! You're in danger of pricing people out of SL.



This still amounts to another $50!! Still the big price hike you're determined to impliment but just spread over two price increases but over 6 months! Some people may be happy with OS regions being used with far less prims.. fine if you can afford to have it as that. I've no objection to that idea but be sensible.. you're being far from sensible at the moment.
I bet people took up OS regions to 'live in' purely because they liked the idea of their own 'plot of land' and could afford to do so, as they couldn't, no doubt, afford a full region.
You're talking of cutting back prims to what they were on OS regions, and also renaming... you mean 'renaming' OS regions as 'Homesteads' and want to charge people more for less!?

The people that use SL are your lifeblood! If they go, at the moment it appears that there will be quite a few who are wavering, as you are still being vague on some points and as such then you are in danger of going too. As you say we are the people who shape this World, andif we aren't here to shape it then who will? Price us out of SL at your peril!
Think on it LL. this price hike is ridiculous to say the least. Read through the responses here.. at the moment around 80 pages of response... and how many replies by the Lindens? Bugger all!!
'Flame off!!'

Here's an example for you..
You walk into a car showroom... You pay for a Rolls Royce, forking out a shed load of money and end up driving out in a Skoda! Would you be happy?

LOL!

Sorry but that made me laugh. And no M is not out of his mind - people prepared to pay that amount are possibly out of their mind but whatever floats your boat I guess (pun intended).

Yesterday the clouds parted for me and I feel much better today and here's why.


I have put off for several months (after the full sim price drop and OSS fiasco Part A) seeing things the way they are. I wanted to hear it from LL themselves that this isn't about giving the middle man any consideration. When I didnt hear anything I pressed on, trying to make something out of nothing. I did pretty well at that. But yesterday, with slumped shoulders, I swallowed the pill I've been precariously shifting back and forth in my mouth.


All you people complaining about your precious sailing, RP, golf, racing, etc etc etc... LL isnt in the business to care about your virtual fantasies or interests. And I'm ok with that. I just sort of wanted it stated outright. But I think we can all just accept that.

I don't care if you ride a mule through and OS or race them for that matter. My little tiny part of the grid is just the same as yours... server space.

They appear to be saying they need to charge X for said space. Let's just put aside the incredibly incompetent handling of all of this. THAT I think becomes frustrating to ponder when you think your little stamp on that grid is real. It ain't. But incompetence aside, LL will charge what they want, when they want how they want. Blue in the face people waxing about thier creations isn't going to do a dang thing.

Now incompetence smack in our faces..... Can we overcome this? YES How?

LL take a little hit to help undo what you've botched up. Let us all just move forward w/o thinking we are entitled to you CARING about our little emotional attachments to pixels.

Don't charge to move OSS BACK to sims I moved them from when you let me put them anywhere. That's another gouge caused by your mess up.

Give people the chance to use the os they have bought in the past up to a year with a credit system. Perhaps when you show some consistency we will want them back in some months and pay more for them. But then we'd have to expect you consider the OSS a tangible product not just a rental of a server that was SET UP. I'm not sure you think that LL. And that's cool. Just say it. Wait..nm on that.


Today have to say I'm breathing a little lighter and actually looking at how I can create something new and exciting with what you seem to be giving me here. But could you please jus admit to yourselves even that you really did foul things up so badly that a little hand to fix it for me would help me move on.

Ah but a Skoda and an Audi under the bonnet are very similar ...

Um ... that doesn't hold up to scrutiny does it?

I guess I'd say, if you weren't so bothered about being all flash in an Audi, but wanted the solid reliability of German engineering but with a common library of parts (yes I did used to work for Volkswagen, does it show?) then why pay for an Audi when the Skoda will give you what you need for far less money?

OLG for teh win!

SL is my entertainment and social world. That sounds sad doesn't it, but it really isn't for me, and I do have a RL. But, I seldom have lattes, and my eating out is take away. How nice it sounds to be able to drive by a Starbucks on my way to work, and then go out every night to eat and have a good time.

And, I am in much better shape financially then many, many people who find SL a door to the world community and to freedoms unattainable in RL. These people are on fixed incomes, disabled, chronically in pain - mentally/physically, and probably would enjoy a latte or a night out.

This price increase is devastating to many of us, and it doesn't matter if it comes on January 1 or July 1, the end result will be the same.

Unfortunately you sound like LL that is unable to put yourself in the shoes of its customers. Please tell me you have more humanity then the Lindens.

I mean, I think LL has been predatory with this, and their ethics regarding this plan are totally null and void, and that makes me angry. It makes me very sad, though, when i think about how the world itself will be affected, like the United Sailing Sims.

I have spent a lot of time in my boats and planes there, saling past and flying over houses when several people in them, trading happy shouts with boatloads of people who pass by me, seeing the hot air balloons and such fly over. Now, what will happen?

If people can afford them at all, it will be a constant crashing into sim barriers when someone with 5 people in their boat just happens to be in an openspace where someone has 5 people in their home. This is just worthless, as LL has become worthless. SL is just so depressing and ugly to me now.

It's their junk to spoil, sure, but the selling point of Sl was that it was our world. No it isn't. Rezzable sims are disappearing that I loved, the USS is going to be permanently harmed and without a doubt shrunk by it. Why would I want to be in SL at all without these bright spots? What's here otherwise?

I think LL would be happy as clams if we all just spent our time with our little prim genitals in the sex sims, and then they could ignore us and try to woo back all the big businesses they are losing. Let's just make the whole effin thing a mall, shall we? Pr0n and prim shoes for everyone, and then we can stand around and do nothing.

Love for this world is what fills it with reasons to be here. I never imagined LL would be this self-destructive.

I know and in that part I agree, even more: although they stay with the price raise, they listened to other points of view and they offered a more steps solution (sorry not native english). I leave out of this discussion now if I agree or not.

My main goal now -and I hope they respond to my post earlier- is that LL finally sees they can't just do things and like every business they need to make clear things for the future, it is not only their business they play with, but others too.

So it is time to make absolute clear (and not be vague) what you can and can not do on any kind of sim, and let people know the prices for the next few quarters and do not change that in that period of time. It is only fair in business.

For me that would help me decide what to do with 3 OS i got, convert them to a full sim now, or wait untill june and abandon them in june 2009 and take the partially raise and see how the rentals do.

But my biggest fear is a huge price raise on regular sims. Reason? I expect many land to disapear (it is already is going on now) so Avatars will get together on regular sims now. Currently I see people divided over many sims, os or regular. Can the CPU's handle it if we all get back to regular sims? Will there be huge lag if a sim is fully occupied by avs, scripts and textures? I mean when i started business in december 2007, the online population was usually around 40-50.000 people, now its over 60.000 and growing.

I am afraid that in february we will get a post from Linden that they did not forsee that all avs would be so much on just regular sims, that they build huge buildings with lots of scripts, that that was not intended use of a regular sim and that they have to raise the maintenance fee by 67% to make sure the lag and performance stay the same and hopefully get better by paying more.....

So i am past the discussion on what was an open space is intended for or not, i am only afraid of what the future will bring us, business residents or regular residents, there is NO policy about this...

Correct Vye... I totally agree with your analysis.

Hi. I'm a disabled person. I rarely leave my house, and spend my whole day in SL as it has become more of a life for me than RL. I can meet and communicate, socialise. It is my link with the outside world. I don't drink or smoke, or go to clubs, bars etc. Every bit I can spare has gone to help me get an openspace sim, so that I have plans and dreams for me to work on, to help me get through my days and take my mind off the problems I have with my disabilities. My dream is to have a 'full prim' sim one day but, as you can imiagine, that is totally out of my budget. So this is all I have, this IS my life and these changes are going to take that away from me.

I literally teared up when i read your post, Nber. I never played golf like i had planned to, but I always LOVED flying over and seeing people down there playing. I just want you to know that if they do butcher this, I am eternally grateful to you for the time you gave us. You really showed us that a virtual community for people who love things like sailing and golf could work.

Shame on LL. I am so depressed and disappointed by this. You really should seek some sort of restitution for this bait and switch, Nber. People were wooed with double prims and half cost in March, and now are being offered lesser products in November, after non-refundable setup fees being paid.

I hope that doesn't happen - you are the backbone of SL - a person who has dreams - needs a venue to make those dreams come true that is perhaps not available to them in RL.

IF anyone slams back at this post - please direct it to me and not to Paulie - seems to me they don't need any more on their plate right now..

Paulie, im sorry about your situation. currently i'm building some sims for CORAworks to help people just like you work for a living in SL in a real office. If you want more info, please IM Coraworks Magic.

I just want to try to ease your worries on this. Opensims were originally created and intended for light use. if you are using this for light use then there will be no changes. if you have been using it as a full sim, or as a large rental business or mall, then you have been taking much more than you should, and paying much less than a regular sim.

so, if you use opensim as it was intended, light use, the price will not go up for you, but as M said, you need to contact concierge to keep your bill in this category.

I wasn't referring to it in that sense.. maybe I should've said Trabant then... ? lol
Would you prefer a Roller or a Skoda (or Trabant even?)
Would you be happy paying out for a Roller and ending up with a Skoda/Trabant? (take your pick)

For the love of god, GRANDFATHER existing prices.

Any other way of doing this is a bait and switch.

By all means, charge new sim owners the higher rate, but at least give us the lower prices for the sims we already have.

You are SERIOUSLY hurting relationships with your customers by doing this. You are telling them they can't trust the existing price of a product and that it can go up 70% at the drop of a hat.

This is not the way reputable companies operate.

Just don't be stupid and grandfather in the existing sims at current prices. A *LOT* of people will be thankful and treat LL as a more honest company. Please.

To play devil's advocate ... I just don't get why any one particular community thinks they are exempt from pricing alterations here. It sucks for everyone.... talking about how its "unfair" just because of what's been built up and what LL has said is nice and fluffy is just silly. A guy with 1 sim and 1 OS is in the same boat. If LL reacts b/c of sailing or RP sim X or some other specific concern then game over.

pretty interesting, I'll have a look at it in a bit at home ! maybe we all should move to there and built a new VIRTUAL DREAM united!

please read his letter today

M says:

"Here is how we are amending the price change:

1. We are going to retain the Openspaces product at its original price point and its original intended use (forest, water, etc.). We will have technical limitations to help regulate their use, initially avatar and prim limit restrictions, eventually event, classified and script limits. Those of you who chose to use the Openspaces as intended may stay at the US$75 rate, but will need to contact the concierge team to do so."

thankfully hes revised it to those who havent been taking advantage of the situation, will be paying the amount they bought into it.