Openspace Announcement Discussion with Jack Linden

The Blog post that indicates to me that they had trouble with the Open Sims almost immediately and have had their heads in the sand and their hands in everyone's pocket is this one: http://blog.secondlife.com/2008/04/16/rolling-restart-wedthu-april-1516-for-121-server-deploy/

The comment in that thread that tells me that they CAN control MUCH more than they WANT to is this one by Sidewinder ... Whatever happened to Sidewinder anyway?

http://blog.secondlife.com/2008/04/16/rolling-restart-wedthu-april-1516-for-121-server-deploy/#comment-598237

Quoting Sidewinder >>> The root cause of sporadic deep time dilation (slow downs) on open space regions was traced to some code that allowed the simulator to allocate too much physics engine memory on this server configuration. This update resolves that problem by limiting the physics engine memory allocation on Openspace servers that run four regions per CPU. /Sidewinder <<< /close quote

Sidewinder is still around. I think they have him doing so many things he just turned "Linden".

No offense Side =\ Your just all busy now

I totally aggre with you.
abuser will pay the new price and continue
real user of the open space product will leave SL ...

I really hope that's the case. LL might "rethink" and "decide" to grandfather the existing price after all, or to "lower" the tier to "only" $95. And everyone will cheer and love them again. Well, not me. I've now finally completely lost my trust in this platform, especially after reading Anne's posts.

Each time they pull a stunt like this, they lower people's trust and confidence in SL a bit more. By now, nobody but some hardcore fanbois expects to hear anything but lies from LL. Everyone desperately waits for a competitor, and everyone will happily jump ship once a viable alternative presents itself. If that's what LL tried to achieve, then congrats, it worked. But I don't know if this loss of custoemr confidence, this utter hatred they create even, is worth squeezing a little more money out of the grid population for another year or two.

RobinHood Linden: Listen up Merry Men...... our policy of robbing the rich to pay the poor just isn't working any more!
MaidMarion Linden: I'm not a Merry MAN tyvm!
MutchtheMiller Linden: Oh... what's the problem?
RobinHood Linden: Well it turns out they're actually SPENDING the money we give them! I did advise them it was light use money only but they're buying food and clothes and stuff!
LittleJohn Linden: Do you have a cunning plan RobinHood Linden?
RobinHood Linden: I certainly do!!! We rob the poor - pay the rich ... er.... that's us btw!
FriarTuck Linden: But won't they be upset RobinHood Linden? After all we did tell them we would give them money. That was the deal!
RobinHood Linden: That won't matter FriarTuck Linden.... we'll just say it's their fault for using the money in the way money is intended to be used! Anyway there isn't another band of merry men they can go to.
WillScarlett Linden: With a fol-de le-rol and a diddle-de-dee!
RobinHood Linden: JacktheMute Linden will be our spokesman. He can listen to all complaints and reply to them. What do you say Jack?
JacktheMute Linden:
RobinHood Linden: Good man Jack!!! I knew I could rely on you!

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Originally Posted by Jack Linden
"Some people have suggested a technical throttle, a hard limit on scripts, avatars and so on. We've certainly discussed that and will continue to do so as we think about how to address very specific needs. It could be that with the right technical restrictions in place that a truly light use product at lower cost is viable."
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++


Does Jack actually mean that after they up the tier on openspace sims and abuse everyone because they have a some bad apples in the barrel they will then role out a new kind of new "lite lite use" sim? One that after a period of time they can just decide they kind of screwed up and will now up the price of the "lite lite use sims" as well??? What a great way to get people to buy hardware for you and then reclaim a percentage of it to profit on again.

If there is a problem fix it but not by doing the same old screw job on people that have bought in to Second Life because you, LL, screwed up or because you have some bad apples abusing the system.

There is nothing new about the way things are run here it seems.

well of course...the lesser users are screwed

Laryngytis Jack?

1.it's so easy to sell something without specific rules and to say later: you aren't using it in a good way (or "in the way I would)!
2.it's so easy to break the land market with a cool and cheap product to increse the price when you have took the whole market!

Was evident that openspace was better then sim to make place like shops or clubs and what they expected? that people spent hundreds of dollars to make their quite home on sl?
Personally I'm selling my sims becouse I'm tired of this way to act by Linden Lab.
But let's be honest, it's evident SL is a flop, 70k concurrent users (about 30k are bots and thanks to the funny traffic ranking system for that) is the traffic of a little Radio of Province and 50 avatars in a sim (or in an event) are limitations that make this game absolutly unuseful of every kind of economic strategy. Maybe some people are making some good money selling clothes or dances but that's all folks!

If linden lab want to reduce the load of their servers this is not the best way, why they don't remove the 30.000 bots from the sims and change the traffic ranking system?
OK their are scared to show that the concorrent users are pretty less, but we just know that

1)Jacks line about the open space sims being overused and abused doesn't fit in with what the rest of the company says ans what we here from other sources...
2) I roleplay and have visited homes on open space sims and had less lag and seen less resource drain then on most "regular" sims
3) The pricing system is designed to hurt those groups that put the lowest resource strain on those sims. Medium sized shops, roleplay environments using them as smaller gorup areas, beaches, or living spaces
4) real estates offering lower prices spacious lots.

Furthermore the tier cost flied in contradiction to things we were told less then a year ago.

Quite simply this is about the greed of certain LL members wanting to look better, and stupidity of those that dont understand their own game.

Everyone that is pushing this tier increase should be fired. Period. here's why:

1) implementing this policy will COST LL revenue because lots of residents and groups can barely afford the tiers as it is. The few that "abuse" the "privilege" of openspaces will still be there still abusing it.
2) you'll lose massive amounts of subscription costs as well as more frustrated users tired of being stabbed in the back by LL leave for your competitors of which there are increasing in number and quality, and some of which make much more effort to listen to their customers instead of screw them over.
3) I can see potential legal ramifications
4) many residents like me saving to rent or buy with the help of others an open space cannot now afford one.
5) stupid unilateral moves like this set back every gain of customer trust made by inworld support, volunteer team, etc., etc., and make it harder for anyone to believe ro respect any LL employee. including those, like cg, joppa, bridie, andrew, and many others that genuinely lsiten and work hard on behalf of the customers.

hm... Greetings.

There go my happy land. Be closed.
Lot sa land lord shut down SIM.

Please, solve it with happy solution. I love SL and my life in there.

Lamebrained was the comment that the easy solution is to give LL $200 USD in less than 24 hours for nothing... I think an anyone's book that would seem pretty moronic

Of course, there's a very real possibility that LL would class YOU as one of the abusers, with a heavily scripted yacht in that private ocean of yours.

That's the issue - they haven't clearly defined what is abuse. If that was their concern, they would define abuse, not raise tiers by 67% overnight. Its a money grab and a way to remove competition from their new Nautilus continent at the same time - pure and simple.

Lets cut through all the absolute crap. They finally figured out why FULL MAINLAND SIMS were not selling. So they have made it so there is no way to make a profit on either FULL PRIVATE SIMS OR OPEN SPACE SIMS.

If you can't beat em shut em down!

This is a JOKE with only one motivation GREED!

Duke

Jack, you said that you'll boost OS tier by 66% 'cause some owners/ tenants overloaded their OS resourced. Does this mean, by paying 125 instead of 75$ we will be allowed to exhaust all those limits in the future? If not, there's still some kind of logic missing in your statement.

If openspaces are meant to be decorative additions to an estate why are we able to set the plot for sale? Perhaps block them showing in the land sale search as there is no reason to sell them on to people if you take what their usage is intended as.

At the moment people are almost encouraged to rent out openspace sims, and unfortaunately as long as they make money they don't really care about the impact on others. But ultimately it's the estate that they belong to that should be responsible for the openspace not the person on it. The estate buys it off linden, we pay linden for it and we should be responsible for ensuring it is not misused. We are the ones with access to the estate tools and can see how what is on the island impacts performance. If an estate owner risks losing their openspaces for misuse or mismanagement then they will ensure that it's used correctly.

Linden also need to make the estate tools a lot clearer. Sure I can see how much script resource is used and from experience I know what is acceptable. But many don't, 20ms is just a number, there is nothing to say what the recommended maximum is etc.

Those of us that do manage our estates properly are being penalised for those that don't. Not only that there is no clear guide on what is acceptable usage in terms of actual resouce usage, so how can you expect people to keep it "low" if they don't know what high is?

I'm just assuming it's hard to type, count your money and get your sac licked by fanboiz at the same time...

Second Life has grown too big for the Lindens to sit back and let it happen. They need to organise themselves and clamp down on those who abuse the privilege of being in SL. It's like any other society...it needs rules and those rules need enforcing.

Certain people will do what they like, if they know they can get away with it. They have the capability to keep Second Life working technically...it's time they brought people in to keep the residents in order and discipline those who cause problems.

If people are abusing the open space sims...send someone in to stop it, don't punish the well behaved ones with higher prices. *Sigh*

Please show us that we aren't just talking to a virtual brick wall!

I believe going after the ones that abuse the use of an open sim than to go after all. Cost to own on SL has increased so much that its now become a burden to do business or have fun on SL.

It seems absurd to expect that land with a quarter of the available prims, that costs a quarter of the price of a full sim, would have anything less than a quarter of the use. If it's traffic that's the issue, then Linden has the ability to limit the number of avatars on the sim at any one time. Its obvious to me that Linden assumes that owners of these openspace sims are just going to upgrade to full sims. A few will, but most will just fold. It sounds to me like Linden is just being greedy and going for the cash rather than fixing "problems" they cite as being responsible the increase.

Sure, I could get a small mainland plot surrounded by tacky redlines, particle emitters, and sex clubs, but the lag would keep me from moving (despite the fact that I meet the recommended requirements for sl).

Now, since I can't afford to rent an openspace sim for non-commercial, low traffic use, I will be homeless and spending far less money on secondlife.

Makes me wonder if George W runs this life too.....

I've been running the numbers over and over and just cannot come up with any reason anybody would buy an OpenSpace sim at the new pricing, compared with either full-prim Estate or full Mainland sims. Either they're intentionally killing this product, or there's an across-the-board fee and tier hike coming once the Nautilus City sims all clear auction.

Am I missing something? Does there remain any market for 25% of the prims at 64% of Mainland tier or 42% of full-prim Estate fees?

If individuals could own just one, maybe: it's the same fee as a half-sim Mainland tier, so it would be double the surface area and half the prims, isolation from neighbors, and direct ownership. But even then, it seems like it would appeal to a narrow niche. As-is, owned as part of an Estate and rented out... I dunno. I just don't see any market for the product at all.

Jack biggest problem is that he's in the UK and the major decision makers (I suspect) have only just begun arriving at work in SF...

I think he's being very sensible by keeping quiet and not making a bad situation worse by ill thought out comments. Unless one of the American contingent post later this evening I think it's unlikely we'll hear a peep out of anyone tonight.

Roll on tomorrow.

@ Jack

"We believe these changes are necessary to better account for the increased load, so that we can continue to scale this product *without* making performance worse for everyone"

Jack you dont have a product anymore at this price level?

Who in thier right mind would pay this kind of price for a SIM that has limitations on its use.. it is basic fundemental costs / resources value for money that dictate peoples decisions the whole reason why open spaces were so appealing after YOU doubled the prim limits on them and allowed them to be placed in isolation on the map.

@Jack

"Yes, we will provide guidance on what load level is reasonable for Openspaces as soon as we can."

So you agree this is a good idea however after the fact having baited thousands of people into buying this product with no solid guidelines on usage then shooting them all down for using the resources supplied to them with that product. This at best is staggeringly poor communication on your part.

One key issue here seems to be what is the major factor that overloads open space SIMs and is behind your decision here?

Id like to know is it prims if so why double the allowance?
Is it script usage ..then why no limitation on that from the get go?
Is it avatar load ..again why was this not capped at a level you felt was workable?

The basic fact is you released a product that did not work within its own limitations and had no proper guidelines on those limitations. In fact from what i can tell those who did purchase the SIMs were told repeatedly on the phone by your own organisation that :-

"they are just like 1/4 of a regular SIM"

"they can be used for what you want"

So people were lied to right? and now its our fault and we have to pay an extortionate price increase to fix things.
I am trully astounded the only sane explanation i can find is that you actually want people to dump then so you can mop up the hardware and use it on your mainland themed regions great way to price out the competition and make your own projects cheaper to execute. This is the only sane explanation however i trully hope this is not the case as that would be dark to say the least apart from being incredibly stupid.

Please please please see the bigger picture here Jack nurture the thousands of small businesses, communities, artspaces and educational spaces whom open space sims were the ideal solution and we will stay and make SL a healthy vibrant place! However if you go through with this i can only see LL and everyone involved suffering you may think you can lose 60% and still break even on this decision but at this price nobody will be interested and the lack of trust in general about dealing in land in SL has just plummeted too all at the worst possible time economically.
This decision will destroy whole communities built on good faith and no doubt will destroy many other dreams .

Offering an alternative product is not the solution either as this is not only about money its about thousands of hours of creativity spent lovingly building whole communities , works of art and many other fantastic projects that are no longer viable in thier current locations . I imagine moving them would be too much for people to bother especially after the way in which this has happened its only going to leave them saddened and unmotivated to continue. Point is you already had the perfect product .

SL will not ever recover if this goes through please listen be flexible and reconsider your stance here.

I hope this is a case of Modify permissions being granted >.>

I own an openspace sim, it's my home and refuge on SL, and there are only two people living there, no rentals, no business, just plain simple fun, for which I'm willing to pay the 75$ tier.
If you expect me to break down my house, demolish the sim and pay you 125 U$ a month for a piece of water where I can't do anything at all you'd better think again.
This is daylight robbery and an abuse of power. SL is being presented with the subtitle "Your World. Your Imagination." SL isn't ours, that's very clear now. But the contents are ours and without the creative people you have nothing.
Another clear example of a poor business attitude.

The funniest part about this extortion is the that LL say...........correct me if i am wrong Jack..:

HIGHER TIER FROM 1 JANUARY 2009 = BETTER PERFORMANCE

ROFLMAO we are supposed to believe that.

The whole grid is flawed badly......asset servers are borked and can't handle the load......proof of the pudding is in the eating.........the grid was like this before opensims became a problem.........if at all they are are problem which i extremely doubt.

We are supposed to swallow your verbal diarrea and believe people who can't even make half reasonable judgements and planning assements.

OK before someone comes with the reply..........its the performance of opensims that will be improved.......thats exactly my point,..............they can't even get the grid running stable.....so we're supposed to believe they will make opensims run better if they get more money for running them...........

LMAO I don't think so.......the only things that will be running better after 1 January are the numbers showing up on LL's balance sheets .......However with a bit of luck this won't be the case either because residents will start seeing the light and stop paying them good hard earned RL MONEY..........I know i won't be paying them.

HALLALUJA I HAVE SEEN THE LIGHT

Could be him and our prime minister Gordon Brown in partnership! He's come out with a lot of tosh, lately too.

Looks like the Lindens are failing to see that by upping prices like this they shoot themselves in the foot. People get fed up and take their time and cash elsewhere.