Openspace Announcement Discussion with Jack Linden
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Steve Crowley
Registered User
Join date: 29 Jun 2006
Posts: 14
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10-27-2008 19:29
This has to be the grossest mismanagement of abuse punishment I have ever, and am ever likely to see in my entire life, Whilst I agree that punishing the "Abusers" of this system is a fair, reasonable and practical idea I wholeheartedly disagree that the rest of us "Normal" users of these open spaces should be punished as a result.
Perhaps you should consider the option of limiting the amount of agents available to any one open space at any one time instead of this completely unfair and dishonorable act of punishment to any and all openspace owners.
I lost a little respect for Linden Lab when the price of full regions was jacked, then regained it when Grandfathering came into effect, but I serously disagree with this current course of action as it is currently planned.
Steve Crowley
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Web Magic
Registered User
Join date: 30 May 2008
Posts: 12
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Class Action Time
10-27-2008 19:29
Um, JZ, I hate to say it, but your link is to an article that is totally out of date - when open spaces only had 1875 prims and could only be bought in groups of 4. By increasing the prims to 3750 and allowing so many sales of open sims, LL implicitly and/or explicitly knew that people were using them for more involved purposes. They also have had the resources to continually monitor those uses, so LL should have called this out at first signs of trouble if there was any. Instead they are playing games. Can anyone else spell Class action. As far as I am concerned, this is fraud on the part of LL. Why increase prims and allow individual sales if not to let people do more on these sims.
See ya LL, time to start my own open simulator. Too bad, you lose about 5k US per year from me.
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CoyoteAngel Dimsum
Registered User
Join date: 26 Mar 2006
Posts: 124
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10-27-2008 19:29
Errr...why not just identify OS sims that are being abused and charge their owners more? Why do you feel the need to also penalize those of us who have bent over backwards to stay within the rules? I mean, it's not like you *don't* have a system for looking at the number of assets, and the load averages, right? I maintain two of these as public parks, but the degree of increase is ludicrous. If my other hosting providers arbitrarily decided to increase rates without even a quarter's notice, I'd dump them in favor of someplace that seemed to have more understanding of its user base. As a camel with too much straw on its back, this may be the final one. Not. Happy. OTOH, perhaps OS owners could just go on strike.
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-CoyoteAngel Dimsum/Lynne Wu
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Tybalt Brando
Catalyst
Join date: 25 Dec 2006
Posts: 347
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10-27-2008 19:30
From: CoyoteAngel Dimsum Errr...why not just identify OS sims that are being abused and charge their owners more? Why do you feel the need to also penalize those of us who have bent over backwards to stay within the rules? . That would require the Lindens to work. Which judging by their past cases of idiocy....doesn't happen.....ever.
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Vittorio Beerbaum
Sexy.Builder Hot.Scripter
Join date: 16 May 2007
Posts: 516
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10-27-2008 19:32
Sorry, i don't know the term "with no grandfathering", since i may guess (reading the comments) that it means: "it will be applied to the current owners and not only to those that will purchase a new openspace on Jan 1st), i would say this is not completely legal imho (and im not talking about your TOS, but by the RL law) to change the fees without giving to us the possibility to resolve the contract and have the money back (entry price). Otherwise it would be seen as a "trap": you attracted thousand of new customers with a intentionally low price, after collected enough you raiseed the price by 67%, without giving em the possibility to step out of the "trap", because if you do: a) you loose the entry price; b) you loose the area they built there. It looks like a blackmail to me.
If i didn't understand correctly that legal term, then i'm sorry, and the offer to give our money back or do not apply the new fees for the current customers, may appears (no completely fair because i will loose what i've built on my openspace) more honest to me.
(and no.. i do not rent, nor i make any business on my openspace.. i have my little home, that is a nice place to visit.... i do my business on a regular SIM, and im paying for it, indeed).
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Dresden Sak
Registered User
Join date: 21 Apr 2008
Posts: 2
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Greed breeds Competition.
10-27-2008 19:32
Personally I think that in the long run all this will do is speed up development of other online environments. People will get sick of paying close to 1/4 their RL mortgage to have a virtual house with a little bit of land in SL, don't even get me started on the prim limits.
So bring it on, I look forward to seeing SL's replacement.
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YourA Misfit
Registered User
Join date: 7 Jun 2006
Posts: 13
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10-27-2008 19:32
Isn't prim limits created for the sole purpose of ensuring the servers load isn't to much for the network? Really why are you punishing people for buying your product when it was you that didn't allow for future scalability? LL should at the very least offer a full buy back sim option, because this isn't right by any standards.
You made these sims, you sold them without restraint, and now your company is pushing responsibility onto the consumer for you inability to properly manage resources. If you can't support them, stop selling them. They are open space sims as designed whether or not people rent them or not, whether its open ocean or a shopping center, these sims use the same number of prims you allow. The only thing that varies is the sims avatar traffic, which shouldn't be the sim owners responsibility to regulate.
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JZ Paine
Registered User
Join date: 15 Jul 2007
Posts: 15
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10-27-2008 19:34
From: Diamanda Gustafson I think you have made your point very clear in all the posts that you've made on this thread.
Now allow those of us that have actually used our sims as community resources for sailing, flying and other terms of recreating, make our points too.
Thank you. Well sorry but my spewing is not necessarily MY opinion if it is fact. I have no vested interest in Openspaces. However, All should know if Lindens finds something that is being abused they will react with swift and sometimes painful consequences. Sorry it is going to hit some in the pocket but then... Should have known better.
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Aztek Aeon
Registered User
Join date: 4 Jan 2008
Posts: 644
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10-27-2008 19:34
That kind of tier increase is not only ridiculous, but insulting to those who still had faith in LL.
You encouraged people to buy in and then stab them in the back with this kind of increase.
I could see $90 or even $100. But to almost double the tier is a slap in the face to the very people you encouraged to buy this product.
Restriction on use is fantastic and in my opinion, should have been there to begin with. Now instead, those who do use them wisely are being punished.
It makes one wary of having anything to do with land from LL at all...be it Estate or mainland.
I'm saddened to see this kind of seemingly shifty move from you, Jack. I had more faith In Linden... till now.
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Gwylym Loon
Registered User
Join date: 6 Jun 2007
Posts: 81
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10-27-2008 19:34
Boy, I cannot believe this. I've been on SL for over a year, have looked at it for possible use at the University I work at and with the way the Linens have been been adding new features without fixing bugs and now this, I can't in good faith suggest it to the university.
My partner and I got an open sim to to have a place of refuge. We made a refuge that only the two of us and some friends visit. We hardly even get to be there since we're trying to get businesses going inworld. Now I wonder why we bother.
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Atashi Toshihiko
Frequently Befuddled
Join date: 7 Dec 2006
Posts: 1,423
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10-27-2008 19:35
Clearly private estates are too much competition for Linden Lab. They claim that the mainland is their estate and they claim they'll be treating it as such, making it more attractive.
In reality, it's just easier to get rid of the competition. Mainland will be more attractive again once those pesky private estates are gone, or priced out of reach for most folks.
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Patnad Babii
Registered User
Join date: 26 Mar 2007
Posts: 13
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Linden lab make things unclear
10-27-2008 19:35
What does mean exactly abuse sim ressources, on a full sim this have never been a issue with anyone and still they are sharing CPUs, there is 4 in a quad core right ???
Why oh why dont you just set limits inside your SIM server software, setting openspace sim with a preset limit of ressource, this way your problem wouldnt even have happened.
I don't understand why would people buy so many openspace if they were to be used for water or forestery purpose. Also why is there 3000+ prims on those. so you can build thousands of trees?
I think it is unfair to increase by 66% land fee on a openspace sim, if your having issue with your backend, just limit the software so it don't cause those issues again.
booo Linden Lab once more your putting more people against you !
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Tecak Oyen
Registered User
Join date: 13 Jun 2007
Posts: 18
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10-27-2008 19:36
I have a question for those that support LL's decision.... why? Seriously. Why are you happy with the increase in cost? How are you personally affected by this? Or is it just the joy in seeing others suffer?
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MarillaAnne Slade
Registered User
Join date: 16 Apr 2007
Posts: 5
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Yep, Bait and Switch ...
10-27-2008 19:37
I have a good friend that is using an open space sim beautifully, appropriately ... and I seriously doubt he'll be able to keep it.
If ya'll just take a look back at when they implemented the Havok 4, you'll find this one little one line OOops ... I don't have the time and energy to locate it ... but basically it said ... "oh er uh dang the open sims don't run like we expected them to on Havok 4"
Sooo again ... it's not really the user that's causing the problems ... it's the lack of proper testing ... therefore the open sims cannot really support the provided # of prims.
Of course, with the Linden editing machine in place ... you'll probably not find the post. But it was referenced in one of the very first upgrades to Havok 4.
Good Luck Have fun enjoy MarillaAnne
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Primitv1 Magic
Registered User
Join date: 21 May 2008
Posts: 1
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Wow, I think it is a serious mistake in this market to be doing this
10-27-2008 19:38
I own an open sim and I have a art gallery on it. I don't charge alot for the artist to display their art there, in fact, it is there to help those that can't afford a weekly payment. "starving artist"...... So, for them to increase the cost, and maybe even limit what I can have on my sim, I will not be able to continue. I know alot of others who won't also!!!! It is really not a smart answer to not give a grandfather to those they have already allowed. Lindens are making a big mistake in these stressed finacial times! It is really sad!
Sincerely, Disappointed
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Somatika Xiao
Cyan Energy Man
Join date: 30 Jun 2006
Posts: 137
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10-27-2008 19:39
Wait.. What? Oh, your increasing prices? Great!
This in itself is absurd, why would you allow *Free Accounts* clog your pipes, but then increase the price edit 66.3 edit% for a product you put out * Because it clogs the pipes*
Now I have seen this a lot more lately coming from the lab, Mitch Kapor smacking down long time residents, before that it was Phillip!
You have done nothing of late but *Bleep* the people that feed you! Sure stabilizing the grid is all good, but somewhere in there things took a much darker turn.
And this also begs the question, how can you justify the increase?
Normal sim server 1200$ a month (This apply to OpenSpace sims currently too) Server filled with OpenSpace sims with price change: 2000$ a month
Then there is the whole diffrent related issue of the initial price increase from 250 to 375, that in itself should have no real inpact on network traffic.
Before a server "Sold" to residents comes out to: 4000$ After the price increase: 6000$
Okay, and here is the kicker!
SL residents are likely to use the same bandwidth as any other resident, so the problem is more residents have flocked and spread out to OpenSpace sims.
End All: If you have 70 Thousand users online, dose it really matter where the traffic is coming from? No, you still have 70 Thousand people online, there going to eat traffic, dose not matter if there on a Normal Sim, or an OpenSpace.
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Peace & Prosperity Somatika
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Dear Misfit
Registered User
Join date: 16 Jun 2006
Posts: 25
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10-27-2008 19:39
I see this as pure profiteering due to, once again, Lindens labs total and utter F-up....not only do they fail to beta test their software...after being promised by Jack Linden in a very widely publicised "era of stabilisation" speech, but now they seek to make the user pay for their own ineptness at capacity planning. I think it is a reflection on Lindens employment policy... "cowboys write more imaginative code than experienced people who plan stuff".
You have people here, like ourselves, who have numerous open space regions being used responsibly.....4 of which have been purchased in the past month.....and you are pricing us ALL out of existance. $1000 USD donation to Linden Labs so they can expand nautilus and sell 1024m lots for $400,000L each. Not only do they get their servers paid for, but they then repossess them by pricing them out of reach. If I bought a car, and 2 months later, after entering the finance agreement and signing it, they told me "oh, the price went up by 66%", that finance company would be slammed at governmental level. Whats the difference? The difference is that financial organisations are expected to operate by a code of ethics. Lindens dont know, seemingly, what ethics are, and they continue on blindly doing things wihtout having any clue of the consequences knowing they can just jack the price and F over the general populace with a massive price increase. Its called capacity management by force, rather than capacity planning.
Shame Jack Linden...Shame.
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Gunner Gopheller
Registered User
Join date: 28 Oct 2007
Posts: 1
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Linden Labs Owners Must Be On Crack
10-27-2008 19:41
With the world economy going to pot, it's obvious that the owners of LL must be on Crack with an escalating addiction. What moron of a business school did your owners attend? You should be REDUCING prices for ALL SIMS. If you follow thru with this idiotic idea of raising prices with the world on the brink of a Depression, you better get ready for some lawsuits of gigantic proportions.
Please - OH Please - will some other company give LL a run for their money and give us an alternative!!
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Soo Novi
Registered User
Join date: 12 Mar 2007
Posts: 10
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Bait & Switch
10-27-2008 19:43
This is bait and switch.
"We're going to double the prims on OS sims and make them much easier to purchase so EVERYONE can have a chance at them. Oh! and drop the price by nearly half, too." then six months later "what? we didn't mention the 64% increase in tier? Well abandon it to us so we can resell it, or convert yours to fulls so we have less total to manage but still get those bucks."
This is bait & switch, and it smells planned to me. Why double the prims if you need to moderate the usage more strictly?
Keep the ability to buy them individually but reduce the prims back down. See how that does, IF the reason for this is REALLY resource management.
But then maybe that's just more BS.
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Thraxis Epsilon
Registered User
Join date: 31 Aug 2005
Posts: 211
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10-27-2008 19:43
I'm sorry... I just don't buy the reason given for the increase in OpenSpace pricing.
Yes there are 16 OpenSpace sims per single Quad-Core CPU. But each OpenSpace sim is also runnin with reduced capabilities. Lower Prim counts and decreased script performance "out of the box" I'd expect some numbers to be shown to coroborate these claims. What percentage of the OpenSpace sims are being abused? Is it overloaded scripts? Overloaded Avatar presence? Both? Why wasn't corrective action taken earlier for this issue? OpenSpace purchases could have been turned off. As well as many other possible options that could have been explored. Will OpenSpace owners be given an option to consolodate OpenSpace sims to single Full Sims at no cost before January 1st?
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Web Magic
Registered User
Join date: 30 May 2008
Posts: 12
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Let me be clear
10-27-2008 19:43
You can NOT put in a post on a blog that open sims are only for water, etc., and then advertise that you can easily buy open sims, use 3750 prims, etc., etc. This is bait and switch. There are consumer protection laws to help us against Linden Labs and this obvious attempt to extort extra fees. They sold a product that only capped prims at 3750 and NEVER specifically set limits on other aspects of use (scripts, people, etc). As long as you stay under 3750 prims, you are following their terms. They can say all they want that these were supposed to be for water only, but if that were the case, then why increase the prims from 1850 to 3750. That was rhetorical, as the answer is clear - let's screw the consumer.
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YourA Misfit
Registered User
Join date: 7 Jun 2006
Posts: 13
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10-27-2008 19:44
From: JZ Paine Well sorry but my spewing is not necessarily MY opinion if it is fact. I have no vested interest in Openspaces. However, All should know if Lindens finds something that is being abused they will react with swift and sometimes painful consequences.
Sorry it is going to hit some in the pocket but then... Should have known better. should have known better then to purchase sims for the purpose of using them? if LL really wanted them to be used for oceans or something, they could have done things like no subdivision rules, or no sale rules, but then, they didn't. Because its only now that LL has a problem with it, that suddenly its against some rules they just made up.
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SexyAnn Ashley
Registered User
Join date: 22 Feb 2008
Posts: 3
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You GrandFather the Sims before why Not Grandfather the Open Sims
10-27-2008 19:44
I just invested in my Open Sims thinking of the Price stated before I got it now less then a Month from Getting mine you raise the Price from 75$ a month to $125 a month Abserd !!! Why does anyone stick around any longer in SL when you pull this to your people that Invest the Most in Game Your Estate Owners !!
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Crap Mariner
Idiot-In-Chief of Edloe
Join date: 23 Jan 2007
Posts: 8
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10-27-2008 19:44
Caveat emptor, I suppose.
There should be some really interesting numbers come January.
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Eziel Rexen
Registered User
Join date: 27 Oct 2008
Posts: 1
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The total BS that comes from Lindens
10-27-2008 19:44
Ok this is just not right at all i may not beone of those people that rent land and such but i have many good friends that get those lands and use them to the fukll extent that they can and from what i am hearing, all that is happening now is just total bull shit. I mean what the hell are you thinking in doing such a thing.. everything you just did with that hike will cost you greatly and for the time and money you put into making the best SL there is you may have just ruined it all .
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