Openspace Announcement Discussion with Jack Linden

Openspace sims have made ideal residential homes. They are wonderful for those that can afford the entire sim. You have complete freedom to terraform, change ground textures, and monitor lag. And complete privacy, too. But even if the sim is divided into lots (I do 3 or 4), it still makes a nice place to live because your have more space for the same price and neighbors aren't right on top of you. Lag is not usually an issue because you have fewer people living on the sim, threfore making it easier to figure out "who done it". When LL changed the pricing and prim count and allowed OS sims to be detached, LL created an ideal residential living environment. No wonder they were so popular! Now LL positions this use as an abuse for OS sims. Umm, what did you think people were going to do with these when you made these changes? No one would put a "park" or open water sim off by itself. The only reason to allow OS sims to be detached, and increasing the prims count would be for people to live on them.

So, people left full prim sims in droves, making it very difficult to maintain a profit on full prim sims. Many of us converted full prim sims to OS sims because that was the only thing selling. If you wanted to stay in business selling land you *had* to sell OS sims.

I understand that lag has been an issue, especially where OS sims have been used for events or businesses that attracted a lot of AVs. Fine, throttle the allowed number of AVs. Also throttle the number of scripts allowed to run. Find an answer.

But raising the prices to such crushing levels at an economic time where people are already cutting back is just plain wrong. All you're trying to do is make the problem easier for you to solve by driving people off of OS sims.

Shame on you!

Dear Linden Labs,

I have discussed the proposed changes as stated by Jack Linden to numerous of residents. Everyone I spoke to are outraged about the proposed changes. Needless to say Linden Labs and residents need to work together to find a solution with benefits both parties.

Everyone will lose out from this proposal. Land owners with OS will abandon the sims and I know some of them will abandon SL as well. There will be lots of angry residents who will leave SL as well. This will definitely put a negative spiral on the economy, and eventually if it is not fixed, we can see the end of SL. Both Linden Labs and residents will lose out. I always spoke to many people and they are will to write off all the investments they put into SL and quit.

There are many good suggestions and ideas already posted on this thread, and I like to add some ideas.

I believe if Linden Labs is offering a sim for 3750 prims, it should be used for residential as well as a park or ocean space. It seems to me Linden Labs need a low prim sim product.

Currently sims which are used for residential are light use. There are usually no more than 3 or 4 residents on the sim at a time, and most of the time is empty until the residents return home. I still consider residential light use.

I propose that Linden Labs

These are my thoughts from residents I spoke to and from myself:

1. Limit the agents and prims for the Opensim and low prim sim products

2. Opensim product used for ocean or green space. 1875 prims, Agent limit 10. Monthly cost $40/month. Scripts should be limited to prevent strain on the servers.

3. Low prim sim product to be used for ocean, green space, and residential. 3750 prims, Agent limit 20. Monthly cost $80/month. Scripts should be limited to prevent strain on the servers.

4. Full prim sim product to be used for everything, including commercial. 15000 prims, Agent limit to be set by Estate Owner. Monthly cost $295/moth.

5. Current Opensim owners should be able to have an one time offer to upgrade 4 Opensim spaces to 1 full prim sim for no cost. This is if the Opensims are used more heavily and requires an agent limit higher than 20 or need better performance for scripts.

6. Current Opensim owners who requires 3750 prims and used for residental (not abusing with heavy use) should grandfather the current monthly rate of $75/month.

Linden Labs, please listen to all the residents regarding this proposal. If you go ahead with the proposal, both LL and residents will lose out, and SL economy will suffer.

I feel Linden Labs need a low prim sim product.

Thank you for listening to us and I am confident Linden Labs will make the right decision to keep land owners and residents happy, and create a win-win solution for all.

Thank you.

This is most interesting that 3,591 people have actually replied to this thread and 166,931 have viewed it.

Take away the 5 or more times LL has looked and the viewing is a significant number.

People are watching Jack and they are being educated on how policy is tabled and how discussion is handled, doesn't look good on LL.

I am not even angry anymore just very disgusted. You will do whatever is best for you, to hell with us, fine go for it.

Logged into OpenLife this morning there were 9 noob's going through their initial shaping and trying to get rid of the default hair and they all came from here.

Your going to make more money LL but it will be for OpenLife's pockets. Fill your boots.

I seriously doubt that 167k different people have looked at this thread.

It's more likely that vBulletin counts one person reading it 10 times as 10 views.

It does, and the 3591 figure are posts and not people.

Presumably factoring in the 2 times they accidentally clicked on the thread header.

I've followed this subject with a sense of total disappointment. I think, for the majority of people here, the overwhelming feeling is that of 'here we go again'..just as you seem to find your feet in SL and cope with the various unpopular changes that are implemented, something else comes along - honestly, it would be so nice to go back to the world SL used to be a few years ago - the technology may not have been as advanced then but it was simply a much happier place.

As for this current discussion I do feel LL change the rules to suit them - when we bought our first opensim these restrictions didn't exist...they were gradually introduced as it became clear that this was fast becoming a popular product and not just yet another means of income for the SL team, with hindsight we should have known it wouldn't last. Now we are in a situation where both the residential and business residents in SL are set to lose out - yet again..and this time it's in the middle of a recession and just before Christmas, (wonderful timing Lindens!).

My vote, for what it's worth, is to do something people have been asking for, for a long time now - 'the half sim'. For those who wish to use the land mass of one sim, but use more resources than the current opensim allows you to do (which appears to be virtually nothing now), it would seem to offer an all round solution. Half the prims of a normal sim at half the price...it's simple enough, and should bridge the gap between the current choices of sims. I, for one, would be very interested in this and it should allow you to enforce the current lower sims performance without raising prices and giving nothing in return.

One thing I would ask is this, you've thrown this in at a terrible time and have a lot of people worried about their homes and businesses in SL - the least you can do is reply with whatever decisions you have made. It's really not fair to keep people waiting like this - you've clearly seen how people feel so for godsake put us out of our misery.. a lot of us have some important decisions to make about our lives in SL based on this and all we can do is wait around with our virtual lives at a standstill until one of you decides to let us know what's going on.

Show your residents some respect for a change and let us know what's going on, we pay a lot of money for the ability to exist in this world and I think it's time something was given back in return.

I propose LINDEN LEAVE IT THE WAY IT WAS/IS...and stop biting the hands that feed them!

Yes as usual most of the world cares nothing about this topic )) and we seem to have some who like to post repeatedly off topic , oh this is hehe what can I say ))

ATTN: JACK LINDEN
Taking a step back from the rhetoric and advice, I believe each person who owns an open sim is having to make decisions regarding their ownership and uses on a personal level. I agree that Linden Labs need to immediately develop guidelines for the open sims and any variations of that product. I agree that changes should be implemented to regulate the performance issues for open sims.

After crunching numbers again, I have to make a final decision soon regarding my personal Open Sim which is used for my personal home where I build a little bit, have a friend over to talk, and usually use my time in SL as a restful respite from real life business and education. This is a personal choice for myself and others...not everyone in SL is here to build a business empire.

What are the options as presently outlined for many open sim owners like myself who are leisure time consumers here in SL? What follows is my personal outline of choices:

>Keep the Open Sim option...only if the Linden Labs defines limitations and cost tiers. If possible, grandfather present owners at current price. If price increase is needed, then present two options for open sims with defined limitations regarding prims, scripts, and avatars. No one is going to purchase a product without clear guidelines and costs.

>Transfer to a Quarter Normal Sim under estate owner. Positives are price is under the proposed Open Sim increase and have same prim limits. Negative is smaller square land area which limits personal leisure use. Transfer costs would also be incurred by estate owners and/or buyers of Quarter Normal Sims.

>Transfer to a Half Normal Sim under estate owner. Positives are more prims than open sim with performance of normal sim. Negative is land area again but at least gives more space than a Quarter sim. Transfer costs would also be an additional expense.

>Transfer to a Full Normal Sim - Positives are full square land area, full prims, and performance within the current boundaries of SL. Negative is cost - as a leisure consumer, the large monthly cost is not a viable solution. Many people enjoy Second Life for what it is...a place to be creative, to socialize, and to participate in another level of technology.

What will I do? That personal choice will depend on you, Mr. Linden, and Linden Labs. I have enjoyed my year "living" in Second Life. However, Open Life and Open Grid are both options that are available. Do I want to start over? Not really - which means as a marketing move for all virtual worlds, Linden Labs may have rung a death knell over this platform. Being an educator who came to Second Life to observe what seemed to be a new opportunity for virtual education online, I am disappointed that the the people in charge are not seeing the implications of this controversy.

Awaiting another annoucement, sir, and hope you understand that decisions have to be made long before the current January deadline.
Eleanor Anderton of
Winterfell Harbor Open Sim and Caledon II and Caledon SouthEnd resident

Two very awsome sims that will be missed.

so if all goes ahead, i am also concerned with conversion time. if i convert 4 OS to a full, what will the time be? i can;t afford to vacate OS sims and wait a few weeks while still paying tiers. that's pretty awful to think of - paying a subscription fee for something i can't use for a few weeks

if you do go ahead with all of this, would there be "crediting" type options? such as bring on a new sim right away in a new location? or say turn this OS into a full sim, here are two OS you can use and bill me the remainder?

it just seems that with the proposed price increase, there will also be a time hit when things are in conversion

please let us know soon, everyday people are making hard choices. people that are very pasionate about sl are feeling a bit let down.

good luck with your decision, i hope it allows for some transition time

Apologies if any of this is a repeat of what's already mentioned in the thread:

Im guessing a much more complex pricing model needs to be eventually implemented. A breakdown of your bill, just like an ISP or cellphone bill. It might not be easy, but really, many leave because they're forced to pay a large amount when they're having a creative lapse, etc.

My personal case in point:

I'll probably close my account in December. I gave myself X amount of months to turn things around. However, life's issues got in the way, and for 4 months I have been paying for nothing. A normal ISP will charge me in bandwidth, disk usage, etc. So if i want to take a break from other internet-related development, I dont have to pay the same amount as I do if my site got a lot of visitors and did a lot of file transfers.

I would love to see the some billing "features" added to the LL service:

- instead of 2 or 3 types of sims, offer several, or charge by grade & usage instead. If you go over your prim allotment, you go up a pricing tier. Have different grades of sims, each grade having 4 or so prim/visitor/bandwidth options that automatically adjust to usage.

- a way to "hibernate" and pay a maintenance fee to keep the sim data but shut down from users, development, etc. during down-times. Many of us have very busy day jobs, or we have sudden problems in our normal lives, or we're just not interested in landlording. Life is often feast-or-famine. Since there's no easy way to export a build, there should be a way to store it tarball-style for a certain amount of time.

Just my 2 cents, but if these options were available, i'd be a lot less pessimistic about being a continuing sim owner.

-Court

Isn't this a nice "discussion" we have with Jack Linden.

WERE THE HELL ARE THE LINDENS??????

imo raise the price, but also ban those that misuse the land and don't use it as it was intended.

Many of us are using them in the manner they were intended to be used, and yet we are still being punished.

However, as with the freebie accounts, LL has never listened to there long time residents on major issues, they blow smoke and say they are listening to us then just ignore us and do what they want.

I hope they will reconsider this train of thought as I like the open water we now have around our main sim with the OS, but if they continue to push the price hike we will just abandon the 4 os'.

Thanks for nothing Jack. Your lack of involvement in this thread is telling indeed.

I rent an openspace sim with my partner and have spent a lot of time and money developing it into our dream island getaway. Although we are happy to share our paradise with other residents there are very few visitors and we only spend a relatively short time online. For the best part it stays empty. Looking at surrounding Opensims this is true of the vast majority of them.

I love the space the sim gives and will be sorry to see it go, but go it will if the price increases go ahead and be sure I will not be reinvesting the monthly outlay elsewhere in SL.

I rarely notice any lag issues, and these are certainly no worse than on other 'full prim' islands I visit with multiple occupants and are a lot better than the hideous mainland.

Jack, some of us just want peace and solitide and not to be surrounded by all the rubbish and tat common to the mainland.

As Ringo would say ....Leave us alone, with peace and love.

Dear Jack,

I'm not waiting til New Years Eve to quit my OS. I'm doing it at the end of this rent period.

Then it'll be a REAL Openspace just like you wanted. It'll also mean $37 a month you won't be getting from me.

Wonder what would happen if ALL the OS renters did that!


Color Me Gone

Don

If linden lab would do the professional thing and give an update to the customers

The way I see it, LL in March offered open space Sims at a lower fee and removed the requirement to buy 4 at a time, then they upped the Ante by raising the prim count for these Sims. My question to LL would be why would you raise the prim count if you did not want to let people build on these Sims? Sounds to me like LL gave the tools away to cause the abuse that was created. Why did they not leave the prim count as it was or even lower the prim count which would have prevented the so called abuse from taking place?
I think I have the answer which is the setup fee's they collected which was nice easy money for them. This gave LL a quick cash flow and based on the number of openspace Sims sold it was a nice amount of revenue. Now that they got the revenue they are saying Oh you have abused our open Sims by building to much and now where going to charge you a lot more money. Paying more won’t fix the problem’s but it will cause people to close down these Sims which is LL wont care about because they already collected these startup fee’s and my guess is that they will think as people move off these open Sims back to mainland Sims the land values will once again climb back up. I wonder if this new increase has more to do with Sim abuse or low land prices caused by lots of people moving to openspace Sims.

*Would be nice if you make explicit this kind of information:

1.- Linden Mainland or Private Estate

2.- Normal region or Openspace - And what does means

3.- CLass of Server - 4 or 5? - And what does means; this will make the market more fair, because there are some people selling class 4 saying its 5, they have to pay less and make more profits on it, so what is my benefit of having class 5 ??, i pay you 100 usd more than class 4, so please let to know to my residents why they pay more too.

**Concerning to the OS regions, why dont you simply say..... "the name its OPEN SPACE..." isnt clear what does it means...?

Some people use OS Regions to sell the cheapest land in the market and face it, its not fair.... , they have to pay more for this type of regions if they will be for commercial prouposes.

Just change the options in the OS Regions:

- DONT allow resell or sale
- Show in about land that it is an OS region and prevent people to dont rent it
- Limit the use of scripts

Finally create a kind of light use Regions for commercial prouposes:

- High price and fee
- Allow sale and resell
- Limit the use of scripts

BTW... thank you for doing this !!! , Now the market will be more fair for all.

LOL yea .. ok.. making tear double what it is on mainland makes it fair for all.... i want some of what you're smoking.

As of this posting, there have been approximately 1100 different posters.

The top 20 posters have posted about 725 posts.

Since the original announcement of the change in OS policy the following is a track of the posts per hour - per day

As would be expected, the initial 'energy' has now dwindled to a rather low response/comment/post rate.

DAy...................Tues.....Wed....Thur.....Fri.......Sat.....Sun.....Mon....
Total Posts........1481......2403...2895....3429....3455...3514...3626..
Posts/Day.........1481.......922.....492......534.......26.......59.....112..
Hours/Day............24.........24.......24.......24.......24.......24.......13

posts by top 20 posters - 725
posts by top 20 - discounting the hi/lo (ie, 18 posters) - 580

Posts to other forums and the orig blog notice not included.

It should be pointed out that typically in a community forum concerning commenting on an action (here the change in OS policy) that affects the community, the number of responders (letter writers, speakers, posters) varies from 3:1 to 20:1 and more.

In otherwords, the 1100 posters may actually represent anywhere from 3,000 to 20,000 residents.

And in SL, where every user is really 3 residents, their ten gorean slaves and a furry alt for sexytime furpiles, that's a whole heap of angry people.


=P

I'm sorry, but that's funny!