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Openspace Announcement Discussion with Jack Linden

Nicoladie Gymnast
We need a 3rd Life
Join date: 26 Nov 2006
Posts: 69
11-02-2008 13:12
From: Thelxepeia Danton

The burden is where?

If you think, I am going to pay $500.00 USD for 4 of my openspace sims, that's insane. I will trade, or dump, those sims on January 1st, 2009. I will either combine them into one regular and pay $205.00 USD less, and still maintain the tier fees by parcel rental, rather than give you a extra $205.00 per month.


Did you not forget you will be ripped off for another $100 for each new transfer?
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Effing Euler
Registered User
Join date: 24 Jan 2008
Posts: 3
A little late and on the bottom but.....
11-02-2008 13:52
I rent an OS sim from a very fair owner. I know the restrictions that LL tried to put on them . I do however, agree with many that say if you didn't want us to develop them in any way why give us prims to use on them, I have never seen a 3700 prim forest nor a fleet of boats that equal that many prims...but if you want the open space i rent to be only water or as a forested area, I will comply... i will sink all of the land into the water and build a lager boat that can float around to fall within your ridiculous rules.. or a forest of treehouses. As a business law student in the past i wonder how you have survived so long without being sued for Bait and switch tactics. (another thing mentioned earlier)...No, instead of changing the way i use the prims i rent on the land i rent, i will continue using it the way Land and prims are intended to be used. I do not put $150 a month in to SL just to have others say "Oops...we made a mistake and you will have to pay for it. I will delete the problem from my computer and find other ways to spend MY HARD EARNED CASH...I am sure WOW would welcome my money.
Briana Dawson
Attach to Mouth
Join date: 23 Sep 2003
Posts: 5,855
11-02-2008 14:13
From: Effing Euler
I am sure WOW would welcome my money.


Ahhhhh, have fun running back to your corpse.
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Coventina Dalgleish
Registered User
Join date: 30 Apr 2006
Posts: 78
Well Jack any more ice water in the jug
11-02-2008 14:23
Well Jack you certainly know how to kill a party. I do not know about other retailers but I have never seen a Sunday like this sales are virtually dead. Seems as this might go a bit deeper than you thought. Tell you what I have been here going on 4 years now and in the early days I supported the game from my real life purse. For the last year and a half I have been supporting my habit from sales in game. I will not go back to feeding this game USD and if sales do not make my tier they will be your tears.

You have successfully instituted a new way to create a crisis in game, congratulations.

Jack you have 28 days left before I do think you will see a massive shift downward in you core subscriber base, unless things turn around.

This has no comparison to the gambling shut down as you have penetrated the heart of the game.

Do not take this as a threat as it is just a simple fact.

The time to make your decision is now, not in 2 weeks because by then the die will have been cast.

Oh and let me compliment you on your command of the discussion it is masterful, oh wait you have not said anything. Nice way to operate a customer service business selling intangibles.
Hawc Decosta
Registered User
Join date: 8 May 2007
Posts: 1
Educators and Open Space Sims
11-02-2008 14:41
The Open Space Sim prim limit was established at 3750 prims. If it was not there to be used, why was the prim limit so high?

I'm a college instructor. I have been trying very hard to bring elements of distance education classes into SL. I have minimal support from my educational institutions, so I invested in an Open Space Sim to try to construct SL learning environments.

With the loss of the educator discount and the increase in rental fees, my use of my own space for educational innovation in SL will cease on January 1, 2009, because I can't currently afford a whole sim.

People don't get into education to get rich, so no longer having an educational discount for low-end land owners will slow the flow of individual educators attempting to be innovative with this platform. Educators will bring students which means more residents. This new policy will slow down one of your resident recruiting pipelines.

I hope you modify this planned change to lessen the impact on educators. I think it will be expensive and non-productive otherwise.

Hawc Decosta
~
Jini Hammerer
The green chick
Join date: 22 Jul 2007
Posts: 196
11-02-2008 15:00
From: Hawc Decosta
The Open Space Sim prim limit was established at 3750 prims. If it was not there to be used, why was the prim limit so high?

I'm a college instructor. I have been trying very hard to bring elements of distance education classes into SL. I have minimal support from my educational institutions, so I invested in an Open Space Sim to try to construct SL learning environments.

With the loss of the educator discount and the increase in rental fees, my use of my own space for educational innovation in SL will cease on January 1, 2009, because I can't currently afford a whole sim.

People don't get into education to get rich, so no longer having an educational discount for low-end land owners will slow the flow of individual educators attempting to be innovative with this platform. Educators will bring students which means more residents. This new policy will slow down one of your resident recruiting pipelines.

I hope you modify this planned change to lessen the impact on educators. I think it will be expensive and non-productive otherwise.

Hawc Decosta
~



Its really not the prims that is the problem. the problem is the sims are being used as normal sims and too many people areon them at once.

See ... mainland an entire sim is limited to 40 people.

Private sims if you do it right you can squeeze in 100 people... IF you disable scripts for everyone other then staff and sim placed items.


The problem comes in when you have

Openspace A with 25 people
Openspace b with 30 people
Openspace c with 2 people
Openspace d with 10 people

Now you have 67 people on a single processor with none of the precautions that sim owners would NORMALLY do when they plan on contantly having 60 or more people on a sim, poor openspace C and D are laggged to hell and they don't know why.
Midori Rotaru
Registered User
Join date: 22 May 2007
Posts: 29
11-02-2008 15:18
but no understand complain need pay av use resource

yet allow large large number BOTs use resource free

allow endless alts use resource free

etc etc

plug those or make pay then maybe seem more reasonable make those who do pay pay more

so that continue to allow performance killing subsidies
Qie Niangao
Coin-operated
Join date: 24 May 2006
Posts: 7,138
11-02-2008 15:35
The loss of the educational discount for new OpenSpaces is one side of this I've avoided because I don't really understand any of it. I can kind of see education as a marketing opportunity (getting students "hooked" early). And support of education is certainly a good thing (although to be honest, I'm not at all sure that commercial discounts are the most effective means for a society to support education--but at this point, that's a whole different question).

Anyway, the parts I really don't know are, first, whether it's actually necessary for an educational endeavor to have a whole dedicated sim for security / privacy or some other reason, or if educational objectives could have been met if there were never even such a thing as private islands of any kind. So that's one question: how essential is it to the mission of SL educators that they have dedicated sims, and what are the specific reasons for that?

Another thing I don't know is whether OpenSpaces in particular are actually suited to the educational objectives in any way other than price. I would think that for one-on-one tutoring sessions or very small groups, they might be quite adequate, but for a classroom setting? It seems to me that for this application, frankly, they should just suck at any price. Is that not the experience? Or is the classroom setting not even relevant to how they're used?

Finally, as I read the announcement, it seemed that the discount was being discontinued for *new* OpenSpaces only. Has anyone been contacted already by LL, describing what they want to do for existing educational OpenSpaces?
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DQ Darwin
Registered User
Join date: 18 Jan 2008
Posts: 9
Lost Your Voice Jack??
11-02-2008 15:40
Well the longer LL is quite the more angry I be come. I am so sick of being manipulate in RL by government and corporate giants while I have to sit back and watch everything fold around me.

Now in Sl also, didn't think it would happen here I mean who would be dumb enough to jump all over the people that made this game what it is. Well guess what they are.

Until this issue is resolved I shall be seen in SL and my titler will read *Leave my OS alone LL* in fact I hope allot of the others affected by this do the same.

We don't make the cooperate decisions but we feed those that do. Use your money wisely.

I concede to no change from what I paid for setup and tier of my OS on purchase. LL you tried something and it got the better of you live with it. If you want to change the pricing and all go ahead but look forward not back there is an ethical contract with those who have already purchased.

So wear your titler as I will maybe we can get together and show some strength. A lot of people aren't aware of the money grab taking place here because they do not have OS land. Well as a community member I feel it my responsibility to make them aware that this is the approach LL can (or feels it can) apply at any whim for any reason no ethics here.

Oh by the way they are reading every post and if there is enough out cry it may change the end result, but I doubt it. They don't answer because they have nothing more to say.

Challenge here LL (Jack) prove me wrong. Restore a little bit of my faith if you can.
Jossy Joffe
Registered User
Join date: 17 Jul 2008
Posts: 2
Doing Business With An Alt???
11-02-2008 15:54
Is there a Jack Linden here? Where? Didnt see any comment yet.
Does he excist, or is it an alt?
Yeahh!! I know: its a G.W. Bush alt. :)
The money LL makes, goes directly to the Treasury Department.

My Grandfather once said to me: " Jossy, whatever you do, NEVER, do business with an american; you will never know what his next, unexpected, move will be and that country lives on credit: that is very dangerous. When he goes down, he will drag you with him in his fall".
I did not believe him then, but is he going to be right after all?
Chaffro Schoonmaker
Funny Bunny
Join date: 22 Oct 2006
Posts: 137
11-02-2008 16:12
Linden Lab, Grandfather exisiting Openspace sims. You retain all the business that the people posting above are going to have to give up, and you settle the dispute within days.

However, regaining the confidence of your citizens again will take a hell of a long time.
Phil Deakins
Prim Savers = low prims
Join date: 17 Jan 2007
Posts: 9,537
11-02-2008 16:28
From: Chaffro Schoonmaker
Linden Lab, Grandfather exisiting Openspace sims. You retain all the business that the people posting above are going to have to give up, and you settle the dispute within days.
I can't see that that would fix anything. They'd end up with all the current OS sims continuing, and not selling enough new ones to cover the cost of dealing with the backend. If the cost increase isn't for the purpose of dealing with the backend, then it still won't work because their objective must be to reduce the number of OS sims. And if that's not their objective, then it still won't work because it's a pure price hike for the money, and they won't gain anything by grandfathering the existing ones and they won't sell so many new ones.
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Vye Graves
Registered User
Join date: 22 Jun 2007
Posts: 249
11-02-2008 16:45
Sec. 238.4 Switch after sale.

No practice should be pursued by an advertiser, in the event of sale of the advertised product, of "unselling" with the intent and purpose of selling other merchandise in its stead. Among acts or practices which will be considered in determining if the initial sale was in good faith, and not a stratagem to sell other merchandise, are:

(a) Accepting a deposit for the advertised product, then switching the purchaser to a higher-priced product,

(b) Failure to make delivery of the advertised product within a reasonable time or to make a refund,

(c) Disparagement by acts or words of the advertised product, or the disparagement of the guarantee, credit terms, availability of service, repairs, or in any other respect, in connection with it,

(d) The delivery of the advertised product which is defective, unusable or impractical for the purpose represented or implied in the advertisement. [Guide 4]

Note: Sales of advertised merchandise. Sales of the advertised merchandise do not preclude the existence of a bait and switch scheme. It has been determined that, on occasions, this is a mere incidental byproduct of the fundamental plan and is intended to provide an aura of legitimacy to the overall operation."

http://www.ftc.gov/bcp/guides/baitads-gd.htm

***************************************************************************

*LL has no abuse now that wasn't known and undertaken, albeit in smaller volume, before the original openspace change.

*They did not take steps to limit abuse they knew would be coming.

*They offered abuse as incentive to buy, raising the avatar cap, raising prim count, offering us land to build our "homes" on. I do not recall reading "Come, give us $250, we will allow you to rez rocks and stare at water!!"

*They have the ability to cap avatars, cut prims, limit script use, and instead they revoke the educational benefit, and run off people who don't profit from their land, and who are least apt to abuse.

*They continued selling openspaces knowing that it was an unsustainable prospect at the price given.

In my mind there is no question of the dubious nature of this move. We bought them hardware, now, the hardware is being retasked as we are shown the door back to their planned communities and mainland wasteland.


**** IMO, IN MY OPINION ****

I am beggining to wonder whether SL as a whole is unsustainable. With the volume of uploaded assets, the need to create more and more land to create income, increasing competition from other worlds, and more and more wariness on the part of investors willing to create businesses in SL, can there be any more doubt they won't make more changes to hedge their bets?

Will they continue selling us services that will be limited, even when they know that they are going to limit them? If so, I, IN MY OPINION, feel they are a risk to do business with. I do not trust people who sell things they know they can't support, even after they know they can't support it.

And for those who think they didn't, I know someone who bought an openspace two weeks before this change, some probably bought even later, and no one was warned. They didn't wake up the morning of this announcement and decide. They were selling these OSs to the unaware, knowing the change that was coming.
Micheil Merlin
Registered User
Join date: 3 Mar 2007
Posts: 32
11-02-2008 16:47
From: Phil Deakins
I can't see that that would fix anything. They'd end up with all the current OS sims continuing, and not selling enough new ones to cover the cost of dealing with the backend. If the cost increase isn't for the purpose of dealing with the backend, then it still won't work because their objective must be to reduce the number of OS sims. And if that's not their objective, then it still won't work because it's a pure price hike for the money, and they won't gain anything by grandfathering the existing ones and they won't sell so many new ones.


I don't think they actually said they would deal with the back end. You'd assume that because that would make logical sense. But I think all that Jack said was they wanted to price them more appropriate to their usage. So, seems like a pure price hike to me.
Joshe Darkstone
Registered User
Join date: 14 Oct 2007
Posts: 44
11-02-2008 17:17
From: Morgana Hilra
I hate to point this out but, this is just the same as all the "fixes"..
They SAY this is for the better.. but, in reality, who does it help?
Most of the open space sims I visit, are less laggy, more room to explore, and really more fun..
I have heard that MANY of the openspace sims are closing now because of this increase.
That bites, yes, I know my "5th grade" analogy is juvenile but, so is this increase.
Would this not in turn, make the LL LOSE monies?
More and more openspace sims close the more monies they lose?
It's just like their new releases.
Yeah sure SOME of the toys are great but, what happened to fixing the corresponding issues instead of bandaging them with new features.
I think this increase is yet another band aid to hide another problem.
In short, I think that this increase is just going to backfire on LL.
Sorry folks (directed at LL's) but, this is a huge problem and your response in the blog just makes it sound even more like a band aid.


In a word - no. Consider the worst case scenario...

Let's say that 2/3rds of all OSR's are abandoned. The server costs were already covered by well more then $4000 in setup fees. the 67% increase means that their income from fees will be the same as they are now, but with thousands less regions on the grid, thus solving the load issues as well as providing empty rAck space for all the new mainland they will need to provide shelter for all the newly homeless.

You really don't have to be very clever to figure out that they don't give a damn how this affects anyone else :)
Doran Forzane
Registered User
Join date: 16 Mar 2008
Posts: 1
Dear Jack, from Frank Sinatra
11-02-2008 17:23
I have looked at the 2 posts from Jack, these are basically his main key point from the 1st post.

So to recap:

* Openspace prices and fees change on the 1st January with no grandfathering.
* Class 4 Openspaces will be upgraded to class 5 in January.
* Educator discount is no longer available for Openspaces.
* No Owner switching for Openspaces unless it’s a full transfer of Payor.
* More proactive education by support staff to prevent unfair resource use by Openspace regions.

2nd Post

I wanted to clarify one issue. As mentioned in the post, Openspaces were intended for space, empty areas of ocean or forest. Take a look at the Knowledgebase article description here. By that criteria, the large majority of Openspaces have more going on than was the original intent. We are not suggesting this is a bad thing, and of course we’re delighted that people have found them to be so useful. And we’re not saying that everyone is abusing resources. We are saying that the use has changed, and continues to do so as people find more creative ways to use them. So the revised pricing is about recognising that change of use and the additional costs and value associated with it.

OK, 1st.

They state one of the key factors is they are been abused, used for what they have not been intended for, yet in the 2nd post he is indicating the additional cost is associated with the value of them. SO if they never intended for this to happen then why.
1. Why double the prim allowance on them.
2. Why did you not lock the number of Avies allowed on them at one time.
3. What is the difference from someone using the prims for a home or the prims for a boat, house, trees with swings etc. Prims are prims and scripts are scripts. They all introduce lag.
4. You dropped the price to encourage expansion. Then you marketed them hard.

Now back to the key points. We all know what the 1st 3 key points mean. But the 4th is very significant. Parcel deeding only works if the resale option is enabled under the region/estate admin. Unless they intend to alter the way this works, regardless of no owner changes at the region level. Parcels will not be able to be deeded to a group.

Ok now the 2nd post which is more important in my view to the 1st post. In this Jack is indicating that the current usage is not a bad thing and the pricing is to reflect their current usage. Back flip here by Jack. Well, if this is the case, then in one breath he is saying there isnt a resource issue, yet at the same time he is. If he has a resource issue with os on a quad for example, why does he not have the same issue for full regions sharing a quad. Unless they release the actual tech specs on how they do their simulation within VM there is no real way to see if they do indeed have a real issue or this is a load of crock. Come one Jack, put out the info so us systems analysts can at least see reason. If you get rid of all os regions and everyone who currently is using SL is still using SL in the same way, on private or mainland, wouldnt you still have the overall usage level. If you have a 250HP motor thats all you will get out of it.

You are also cripiling an OS by not allowing resale anymore. Which infact makes them pritty much worthless to both estate owners and also current sub owner. I think what you (LL) have seen since may is how creative people are, we the users have turned os regions into what you would/could call the Jewels of SL. People have abandoned mainland because of its lack of design, zoning and friendlyness. Content creators like myself have seen them as a more cost effective method to develope better content. There are lots of reasons and lots of issues here, but come on. You expect us to take a 66% increase and not get upset. Well, maybe this will be a defining moment for Linden Labs, maybe you will look back and this as the begining of the end. Dont make the same mistakes as other companies in the past who didnt and dont listen to their user base.

For LL, I think you see the potential to make more money without adding additional costs. Once the tier on os regions goes up in Jan, the new jewels will be private regions. Is this your next target, will these be $500us tier to keep in parity. Then what stops you from hiking the tiers on mainland.

Regards,

Doran
Vye Graves
Registered User
Join date: 22 Jun 2007
Posts: 249
11-02-2008 17:27
From: someone
"Let's say that 2/3rds of all OSR's are abandoned. The server costs were already covered by well more then $4000 in setup fees. the 67% increase means that their income from fees will be the same as they are now, but with thousands less regions on the grid, thus solving the load issues as well as providing empty rAck space for all the new mainland they will need to provide shelter for all the newly homeless."


Not even 2/3 would be a huge win for them. 1/3 would be how much clear money, in addition to the hardware it purchased sitting there ready to be retasked? Then, in 6 months when they further limit openspace use, reduce the prims, etc., how many more then?

One has to wonder how many of these servers are just the older ones that were swapped out from the mainland upgrade. So really if many were, the setup fees for those didn't buy hardware at all, rather just helped fund the upgrade elsewhere that was already underway. Millions of dollars were generated with the marketing of a service that now, once the non-refundable set up fees are paid, is being switched to a higher cost, lower use service.
Nicoladie Gymnast
We need a 3rd Life
Join date: 26 Nov 2006
Posts: 69
Where is the logic?
11-02-2008 18:05
According to Jack Linden http://homeless.inworld.sl/2008/10/jack-linden-office-hour-10-30-2008-transcript/

[11:36] Jack Linden shouts: There are 13,000 Openspaces, several hundred of which are Linden owned.
[11:55] Jack Linden shouts: there are 32000 regions in all
[11:56] Jack Linden shouts: 5,000 of those are Linden Mainland


So there are 27,000 private sims and only 5,000 mainland sims, wonder why people go to private island?

Because mainland is such a ghetto place (hope I don't offend anybody by saying this), which is why people moved to the suburbs (private islands).

So based on the popularity and demand on Private islands, why does Linden kill their nest eggs instead of addressing why people left mainland for private island in the first place?

It seems half of the private sims are openspaces, then again you wonder why people move into the openspaces?

Because it offers spaciousness and freedom even though people have to live with some rather restrictive covenants by the estate owners, but people are willing to pay a bit more to get away from ghetto and have the freedom to terraform their land.


On the resource usage issue:

[11:46] Jack Linden shouts: First of all, Prims are not the only load and probably not the biggest part of load - agents, scripts and even textures add up to load.

[11:47] Jack Linden shouts: With load based issues, it’s hard to predict usage levels, how that will affect the databases, bandwidth and so on, and those issues are emerging ones as the count of Openspaces shot up

Very interesting, according to Jack, it seems that the prims, the textures and the scripts in the Openspaces somehow work differently than in the Mainland or Private Islands.

Somehow people run different textures and different scripts in Openspaces that demand more resources than mainland. If this were true, then when people convert their Openspace back into regular sim, the SAME scripts, the prims and textures somehow will automatically reduce their usage and not tax on the asset servers. VERY INTERESTING! There must be some magic that the conversion would do to the scripts and textures.


[12:02] Jack Linden shouts: ‘how does that (# of openspaces) compare with the number of full regions on the grid, and what metrivs were used to determine that open space sims are using more resources than their cost justifies?’ Yes, it was. I linked in yesterdays post to the KB article which was fairly explicit I think, about intended use for them

[12:29] Patch Linden shouts: =======> Jack, LL is claiming a loss due to performance. But todays hardware is superior in performance per core with more internal cache. LL is using 1 CPU with 2 - 4 cores for multiple sims vs. the old 1 server per 1 sim model… Please explain the LL loss.

[12:30] Jack Linden shouts: Firstly, although classes of hardware do improve at each level, all the class 5s are effectively the same and the server spec that simulators run on is just one part of the equation anyway.. the back end databases, bandwidth etcetera also play a part

So this overload issue seemed to have nothing to do with Openspace, so why point the finger at Openspace?
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Jini Hammerer
The green chick
Join date: 22 Jul 2007
Posts: 196
11-02-2008 18:53
From: Nicoladie Gymnast
According to Jack Linden http://homeless.inworld.sl/2008/10/jack-linden-office-hour-10-30-2008-transcript/

On the resource usage issue:

[11:46] Jack Linden shouts: First of all, Prims are not the only load and probably not the biggest part of load - agents, scripts and even textures add up to load.

[11:47] Jack Linden shouts: With load based issues, it’s hard to predict usage levels, how that will affect the databases, bandwidth and so on, and those issues are emerging ones as the count of Openspaces shot up

Very interesting, according to Jack, it seems that the prims, the textures and the scripts in the Openspaces somehow work differently than in the Mainland or Private Islands.

Somehow people run different textures and different scripts in Openspaces that demand more resources than mainland. If this were true, then when people convert their Openspace back into regular sim, the SAME scripts, the prims and textures somehow will automatically reduce their usage and not tax on the asset servers. VERY INTERESTING! There must be some magic that the conversion would do to the scripts and textures.


They do if you think about it. If you haave 4 open sims with 20MS total time frame .. it would be like having one normal sim with 80ms total time frame. thats massive lag for all.

But thats not all he is saying, because the same goes for avi's if you have 4 openspaces with 20 people on them its the same as having one normal sim with 80 avi's on it. the issue is real but charging more does not resolve it.






From: Nicoladie Gymnast
According to Jack Linden http://homeless.inworld.sl/2008/10/jack-linden-office-hour-10-30-2008-transcript/

[12:02] Jack Linden shouts: ‘how does that (# of openspaces) compare with the number of full regions on the grid, and what metrivs were used to determine that open space sims are using more resources than their cost justifies?’ Yes, it was. I linked in yesterdays post to the KB article which was fairly explicit I think, about intended use for them

[12:29] Patch Linden shouts: =======> Jack, LL is claiming a loss due to performance. But todays hardware is superior in performance per core with more internal cache. LL is using 1 CPU with 2 - 4 cores for multiple sims vs. the old 1 server per 1 sim model… Please explain the LL loss.

[12:30] Jack Linden shouts: Firstly, although classes of hardware do improve at each level, all the class 5s are effectively the same and the server spec that simulators run on is just one part of the equation anyway.. the back end databases, bandwidth etcetera also play a part

So this overload issue seemed to have nothing to do with Openspace, so why point the finger at Openspace?



The overload issue has a lot to do with open sims, this I have no doubt about for the same reasons i outlined above.

Think about it this way .

You have servers pushing data to clients that are extreemly lagged. the processors are running at 100% trying to maintain data flow that means every thing to and from that server becomes a bottleneck this in turn makes requests from the database wait or even stail and fail.

Is open spaces the problem. yes they are. the concept of them was poorly planned the processing power needed was underestimated.

Is raising the prices going to solv anything. Other then pissing many people off and driving a lot off, its not going to correct or change any of the core issues they are saying are the problem.

Truth is they got the response they wanted to get. 4 open sims sold for the same as one normal and they made 20 a month more per processor. or about 65000 dollars a month in more profit over normal sims, close to 1 million a month in revenu from tear on top of $3,250,000.00 in purchase costs of open spaces. But they cant handle the load with 4 per cpu. Guess they never expected people to actually visit these sims or something.

still while technically i see the issues. that does not justify a pay increase with out a equal service increase. they screwed up... we should not have to eat their mistake for them to fix it, let them take it out of the extra profits they made from the sale and maint of the open spaces and come up with a real solution.
JCaris Seaton
Registered User
Join date: 29 Jul 2007
Posts: 5
Next will be the Full Sims
11-02-2008 18:55
At 125US per month and 3750 prims that works out to .033 cents per prim for an Open Sim

At 285US per month and 15000 prims that works out to .019 cents per prim for a regular sim.

Once this price goes into effect the next step will be to raise the regular sims to 495US per month so everything will be equal.

So those that think this doesnt effect them just wait.
Argos Hawks
Eclectically Esoteric
Join date: 24 Jan 2007
Posts: 1,037
11-02-2008 19:04
We're long overdue for a Class 6 server. Bringing in a new wave of faster, more capable servers should really open up the possibilities.

You could throw out the notion of openspace vs. fullprim sims, and just have sims with variable sizes and capabilities. You should be able to pick the size and prim/processing limits that suit your needs. The standard rate would be for a full sim with full prims, 256x256 with 15,000 prims. Then for half that cost (or half plus a small fee) you could have 256x128 with 7500 or 256x256 with 3750. Either of those would be given half the processor capabilities of a full sim, and limited to whatever Total Frame Time is necessary to keep them from affecting other regions on the server. Likewise, you could have 256x128 with 1875 or 256x256 with 935 for 1/4 cost. You could go as low as 1/8 normal with 128x128 with 1875 prims, 256x128 with 935, or 256x256 with 465. At the current rate of $300/month, 1/8th is $37.50. Add in a fee to cover additional overhead, and you could easily be charging $50 for every 1/8th, $90 for 1/4, and $170 for 1/2 (pricing should get a little better with the more capable regions due to less overhead). Of course, with LL continuing to operate more and more double primmed regions at under $100/month/sim and the cost savings gained by switching to modern hardware, the base private sim price should be going down.

You could even let sims scale up the other way, charging roughly double for 256x256 with 30,000 prims and double the processing power. Limiting the Total Frame Time on sims (like regular sims are currently limited to 22ms) and allowing people to choose the level of server processing power that they want to pay for will greatly smooth out the problems that LL's poorly thought out announcement have caused.

Also, if the problems you are seeing are really due in large part to agent loads, isn't it about time to start charging the agents responsible for the load. You can still give everyone a free account, but there's no inalienable human right to scripted attachments. People can be charged for Frame Time-Hours analagous to kilowatt hours on your power bill. Pay $100L, then you can wear scripted attachments until you've reached the equivalent of 1ms frame time for 100 hours. For me, this may take 1000 hours or more of actual time logged into SL. For others, it may be a week. It would be a tiny amount for each person, it would get them to be more conscious about their attachments, and in aggregate, it would add up to a healthy amount of money for LL to improve the backend architecture. You could even allow premium members a free amount of FrameTime-Hours every month as part of the membership.
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Vye Graves
Registered User
Join date: 22 Jun 2007
Posts: 249
11-02-2008 19:05
From: someone
" Next will be the Full Sims"


Let's draw a line here for a second.

I don't believe anyone is telling LL that they don't have the right to raise the rent. I certainly am not. Because of inflation, etc., of course the price of a product or service must change over time. The question here isn't what they are doing, it is how and why they are doing it. Many of us here are conservative people in terms of economics, none of us want to police the right LL has to function within the bounds of the law.

It comes down to a reasonable expectation. It is reasonable for people to expect that the land that is marketed them won't immediately change prices, and due to some esoteric idea of abuse, punitively. The punitive nature of this price change is one of the key points in its excess.

The whole "we have the right to change the price of this service without warning" disclaimer is a minefield for someone selling in the volume LL does, and with the "push" that LL uses. LL marketed these openspaces and within a handful of billing cycles is demanding a VERY SUBSTANTIAL price increase. That suddenly becomes a bait and switch.

The legal question is, was this baiting people into something using a description of the price and service, then immediately yanked them to a price they would have been otherwise unwilling to pay. If so, that is a deceptive, bait and switch tactic, and is completely unethical. The same if they suddenly cut your prims. They market one thing at one price, then you end up with something much less desirable in a length of time that is way under the reasonable expectation of use.

There's no problem with LL raising rent, but it should be done up front, not in blanket, punitive fashion, and not at such a scale that makes the service totally undesirable compared to what was offered at the time of sale. There is no reason for LL to be almost doubling the cost of an openspace other than punitive, predatory practice, in my opinion. This should action should be revised by LL to remove all appearance of bait and switch.
Shiina Petrov
Registered User
Join date: 29 May 2007
Posts: 37
could we lease sims for 6 or 12 months, and avoid all this?
11-02-2008 19:35
From: Vye Graves
There's no problem with LL raising rent, but it should be done up front, not in blanket, punitive fashion, and not at such a scale that makes the service totally undesirable compared to what was offered at the time of sale. There is no reason for LL to be almost doubling the cost of an openspace other than punitive, predatory practice, in my opinion. This should action should be revised by LL to remove all appearance of bait and switch.
Once again, this is well said, Vye.

I am not conservative, so I would like to add a little more protection. That is, now that LL has shown how ridiculous a provider can be, we should be interested in preventing them or others from repeating it. I don't know whether a court settlement could provide this, or whether LL would ever agree to it. It would offer some justice, though.

One thing I would like to see result from all this are serious lease contracts for the sims. Like an actual apartment, LL should not be able to change tier rates by more than reasonable amounts. If you have a six-month or one year lease, your tier should be fixed. Then there could be rules about exactly what is fair notice for a big change. For example, LL might have to warn us 3 months before the end of a 6-month lease but 4 months before the end of a year lease period, or whatever. It could be based on how much non-refundable deposit you paid. There could also be some minimum notice period for month-to-month, or else deposits must be given back plus something for our lost time.

LL would also be required to refund a significant amount if it cannot provide service until the end of a lease. Now that at least some grid metrics have been introduced (thank you Linden), there could be partial refunds for severely laggy or unstable times. If LL is going to have any option to talk about abuse and cancel contracts, then there must be very, very clear ways for both LL and the user to measure abuse, warning periods, and ideally a review process.

Without this sort of arrangement, it can all happen again. Either on full-prim sims, or mainland. I think other virtual world providers would notice if this becomes a serious legal case. Having said that, I think leases like this could set a positive example for them too.
Nicoladie Gymnast
We need a 3rd Life
Join date: 26 Nov 2006
Posts: 69
11-02-2008 19:37
From: Jini Hammerer
They do if you think about it. If you haave 4 open sims with 20MS total time frame .. it would be like having one normal sim with 80ms total time frame. thats massive lag for all.
That is not true. If you convert these 4 OS back into a regular sim, it would run exactly the same frame rate, 20 ms.

In fact, the opposite is true. Why? Because now your drawing distance would include 4 times more prims when you reduce the sq.m. space in a condensed regular sim, whereas in an Openspace, your same drawing distance include 4 times less prims when you spread them out.

This means you are loading the system 4 times higher in a condensed regular sim than when you spread out the same prim resources over 4 times the square footage area. So theoretically, Openspace sim REDUCES the lag and asset server load assuming all things equal.

From: Jini Hammerer
But thats not all he is saying, because the same goes for avi's if you have 4 openspaces with 20 people on them its the same as having one normal sim with 80 avi's on it. the issue is real but charging more does not resolve it.
Again, ditto for this. When you put 20 people in each of 4 OS, and condense them into 80 avi in a regular sim, because of the drawing distance, you will include more avi in a condensed compacted regular sim than a spread out OS sim. The bandwidth requirement for the same reg. sim is much higher than 4 spread out OS.

From: Jini Hammerer
The overload issue has a lot to do with open sims, this I have no doubt about for the same reasons i outlined above.

Think about it this way .

You have servers pushing data to clients that are extreemly lagged. the processors are running at 100% trying to maintain data flow that means every thing to and from that server becomes a bottleneck this in turn makes requests from the database wait or even stail and fail.

Is open spaces the problem. yes they are. the concept of them was poorly planned the processing power needed was underestimated.
Again, no, it is not caused by openspace. Why? Because they have not scaled up the asset servers accordingly. Just think about the same argument, if these were not Openspace sims but regular sims, they would have exactly the same bottleneck problem if they had not increased the asset servers proportional to the number of running sims.

Just because the increase in number of sims just happened to be OS, the correlation happened to be a coincident. If the increase in number of sims were regular sims, they would have exactly the same bottleneck overloading problem.

The question is: Did they increase the number of asset servers scaled up proportional to the increase in sims (regardless of regular or openspace sims)?
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janeforyou Barbara
Registered User
Join date: 21 Feb 2006
Posts: 31
Marked Prices
11-02-2008 19:46
If LL set prices from Inflation thats may be 2%---right now SL are in a resetion = deflation as prices fall, the RL economy for members are so bad that SIMS are given away just cuz ppl cant aford the tiers.-Shopping in SL falls 50% or more..LL got to get costs coverd yes, but in downtimes companys get less work and got to let workers go to save cost, in amy marked that are down you dont sell more my raising prices,, you sell more by lower prices and then in good times you slowly and safe rises prices so you dont loose costumers. What LL need are Economists and a strategy for there costumers,,
Set prices down on Tiers with 10% get more sales,, and keep the simowner,, when good times come.. raise the price 10% again... thats how to do it,,it usly works RL.