Openspace Announcement Discussion with Jack Linden

Well All As You Can See Still Speaks With Open And Lose Wordings (redireic) And No Actual Facts On What The Class 4 Sim Open Space Can Actual Do ! And Im Sure You All Know Why By Now!!

He Either Want To Get Sells Back To The Mainland Or Private Islands ! And Being Dishonest About Doing It As A Politican Dose Working About Words That Have No Meaning! So Not To Be Held Responsable For Them, Keeping The Fact Hiden ! Because He Can Not Alowing His Staff To Give Out The Info Either

But Common Thoughts, A Full Sim Can Do Xyz Dived Into 4 Part Still Means It Can Do More Than What Jack Claimming !

He Gambling With A Pat Hand He's Set Up And Cant Lose !

And All The Folks That Have Lots Of The Openspace Sim, They Are Trying To Figure Out The Best Way To Save Their Investment As In The Lowest Lost From This Dishonest Move!

If All Open Space Sims Are Converted To Full Sims, He Earn Usd !

If Nothing Is Done He Earns The Extra 66% That They Are Not Worth Even As Class 5 Sim He's Blowing Smoke About! And I Bet They Will Be For All With Premium Account To Buy No Longer For Full Sim Owner!

If Their All Dumped The Renters, On Them Now Go Out And Pay Premium Account And Buys Mainland, Still Earning Usd.

Others Comming To Secondlife Will Not Know What As Happin And Buy Into The Openspace

Is Their Anything Wrong Earning Usd ? Not If Done Fairly And Honest ! But This Is Not The Case With The Openspace Sims This Is The Most Dishonest Thing To Date Going On! Why Do I Say This ?

1. What Was The Purpose To Add More Prim Use And The Reason To Go From A Must Buy 4 Openspace That Was Limited To 1000 Prims Each Openspace Sim And They Was All One One Cpu ?

2. No Facts Was Offer ! 3. No Fair And Resonable Solition Being Offered 4. No Fair Fact To What The Class 4 Openspace Can Do And Can Be Use For Within The Fact Of The Duty Range

In The Long Run I Only Have One To Dump ! Saving Me 75 Usd A Month Back In My Pocket! But The Theif Of The 250 Usd. Must Be Dealt With ! And How Is On My Mind Will Be Thinking On ! But I Hate The Dishonest Way It Was Done And The Folks He Mistreated Doing So As He Try And Turn Blame Back On The People Of Secondlife !

Thanks For My Time On This Matter !

What mainland sims are for sale? My first thought after the price increase announcement was "well, maybe I should just move back to the mainland now that the new spam and gambling policies are in place." LL has no mainland sims for sale, which surprised the heck out of me. When did they stop putting at least a few a week up for auction?

Plenty of private islands, of course, but frankly, private islands are overkill for someone who actually wants a sim of open space and not much else... OS sims were a great compromise

There is half a mainland sim I would not mind owning.

But it is priced at L$750,000 so forget that lol. It is worth not L$1 more than L$163,840.

Posting things like this every now and then might help us all know you're trying to communicate with residents (your job is it not?) and not ducking out of the discussion:

http://nwn.blogs.com/nwn/2008/11/mark-kingdon-on.html

There...did some of your job for you.

Synopsis of Mark's doublespeak:
Screw you guys, we're jacking the rates up

For anyone providing information on the whereabouts of Jack "we are listening [just not hearing]" Linden.

Reputedly responsible, in the words of colleague Katt Linden, for responding to resident's concerns over the coming tier and price hikes....increases....relating to OpenSpace sims, Jack Linden has been silent on the matter for almost a week, leading some to speculate foul play may be involved....or quite possibly he's simply not interested....

Anyone having information on Jack Linden's whereabouts, or more importantly, on any CONSTRUCTIVE feedback he may have on resident's concerns, please post your information here.

Jack, if you are able, please contact us. We're worried.

Really.

I don't want to argue with you, I know how simulators work.

There are 3 parts to a simulation. One is the simulation part (which runs on the simulator CPU to simulate the geometry and physics); the other is the database that keeps track of all objects in the simulation (which runs on the asset server CPU); the third is the communication between the simulator and user client (via the internet), which uses load-balancers to distribute the load.

Of course, the script affects the simulator, that is a no-brainer. That script load is independent of whether you have 4 OS sim combined or a single regular sim. But that is only half of the equation.

The other half involves the database engine that keeps track of all the object's detail geometry and environmental parameters (prims, agents, avatars, environment, etc.), which is really what Linden is complaining about in draining their resources.

If the simulator engine is overloaded, it would only affect people in those 4 Openspace sims, so Linden cares less about your problem within your Openspace because you are causing it on yourself. That is why they stated every clearly in the OS description if you drive the sim to the ground, don't complain to them about performance lag.

The problem lies with the asset server overload, because the database engine serves the entire SL universe, not just your 4 Openspace sims. When that overload happens, it brings down the entire SL universe.

That is precisely why Linden did not foresee the problem, because they think that the simulator CPU is all it takes to keep up with the load, but they forgot that it also drained the asset server CPU too, because all the details of the simulations -- from the graphics primitive geometry (called "prim" to the "texture mapping" on these "primitives" to the physics of these primitive objects all depends on the asset server database info.

Because the asset server holds the database of ALL objects, scripts, avatars, and agents info in the universe of SL, they cannot separate out whether the asset server load is caused by Openspace sim or regular sim. All they see is that the load increase, which just happened to be coincidental with the OS sim number in use. But if the increase were regular sims, they would have seen exactly the same increase in asset server load too. That is why Openspace was an easy target to blame for the asset server overload problem.

If it were just the simulator CPU overload, then it would have affected just the 4 OS sim people are in, you are on your own. Linden would say you caused your own problem, don't complain to them. If you drive your OS sim down to 1 fps, Linden would just laugh at you and say you did it to yourself, what do they care?

But when it is the asset server overload, it will affect the entire SL community, and cause lag in EVERYONE in SL, not just the 4 affected Openspace sims. That is the real issue they found themselves in.

There is also a third part of the equation, which is the internet servers that handles the internet traffic between the user client and the simulator CPU and asset server CPU. That is the communication channel bandwidth that sucks up as the online users increase, as the complexity of the simulation parameters increases (with increased number of objects to be communicated to the clients.)

The reason why avatars in a sim create lag not just to the OS sims but spread to SL universe (even if they have no attachment or script attached) is because they create tremendous load to the asset server database because they have to transmit updating info of all the objects (scripts or any agents within the drawing distance) for EACH avatar online. The bigger the drawing sphere (radius in 3D), the more objects to be included in each update for each avatar to be transmitted back to the client.

This multiplies very fast as the number of avatars increases, which is why lag is immediately felt when there are more than 10 avatars in a sim, regardless of whether there are scripts or attachment running. That's why the campers draws so much resources even though they are sitting there doing nothing. (If you decrease the graphics details in your client Viewer, your lag will improve which affects the 3D rendering in your computer, but not it will not affect anything at the server side.)

That is precisely my point. The lag is created by asset server having to update all the objects surrounding these 80 drawing spheres (radius) within its perimeter. And the simulator CPU has to compute the geometry and physics for each of them.

This lag is not only created at the client side in drawing on your screen (which only affects the user but not the server), but at the server side having to simulate the geometry and physics, AND send each avatar this massive info from the database for every object surrounding these 80 avatars to be update so you can draw them on your computer screen. This is independent of whether there are any scripts running in the sim.

Of course, scripts would use up CPU time of the simulator (simulation engine). That is a given, duh! The worst CPU suckers are particle beams which rez hundreds of temporary objects per sec.

That is no different from the physics lag generated from 4 OS or a single regular sim. The physics lag created is identical, whether you are in the other 3 OS or the other corner of the regular sim. That was precise my point. 4 OS does not create any greater lag than 1 regular sim.


That is not true. The simulator computes exactly the same physics and renders exactly the same geometry if there were identical objects in the sims, so it will use up exactly the same 20ms frame time, not 80 ms.

If you want to know the details, the simulation engine is solving a set of matrix equations for geometry rendering in 3D simulation and texture-mapping for surfaces, light-tracing rendering for shading, shadows and light-reflection, and solving a set of differential equations for the physics engine.

The computing time for solving these equations is exactly the same for 4 OS sims and 1 regular sim because the geometry and physics are the same. It will not take 4 times longer to solve the equations in 4 OS sim than 1 regular sim because it is simply a space-dilation of expanding the area size. It will not introduce time-dilation.

Why? Because the simulator engine is solving exactly the same equation independent of whether you subdivide it into 4 regions, the math and computational cost is identical. It will not take 4 times longer to solve the same equations if you subdivide them into 4 parts.

In fact, it will save you time solving these equations if the 4 OS sims are non-contagious because of the edge-effect -- you don't have worry about the physics and geometry of the boundary if no neighboring sims are around. So theoretically, 4 non-contagious OS sims consume less computational time than 1 regular sim because of the boundary effects.

This is rocket science of equation-solver in numerical analysis for writing simulator code in computational science, dude! It is not for the faint heart. In fact, the exact same physics simulation engine and equation-solver are used to simulate the aerodynamics of rocket engines in flight simulators. It would be a laugh to think this is elementary math... This is solving a set of simultaneous differential equations and matrix-tensor equations, not just calculus!!!

Try write a simulator yourself and you will know what it takes to solve these equations, and the computing time involved. That is why Linden had such a difficult time articulating the technical issues they are faced with to make an average person understand the complexity. I am not speaking for them, nor do I want to. I just want to dispel the myths.

This horse had been beaten to death 4 times already. Does it need resurrection?

http://nwn.blogs.com/nwn/2008/11/mark-kingdon-on.html

In response to the above interview with Mr. Kingdon...

Dear Mark Kingdon,

I do not own an OS, but I am most certainly a Premium Subscription account, and have been one since joining SL in December of 2005. Thank you for informing me of just how immaterial my business for the past three years has been. Now I can focus all my energy on being a Free Account and exploring OpenLifeGrid. In December, when my Immaterial Premium Subscription is set to renew, there will be some changes. I will be vacating the mainland that I own in preparation of my move from Premium to Free living. I hope this will give you enough advance notice so that you might find a suitable replacement tenant. Oh maybe you can find one of the newbies fresh off of the Big Spaceship.

Sincerely,
Ryanna Enfield

In all seriousness, I'm deeply saddened, as well as angered by Mark Kingdon's choice of words. It makes me wonder what part of the community Linden Labs will anger next. I can say with much confidence, after having been in SL for three years, communication is still Linden Labs weakest point. Odd when you consider that SL is a very social environment.

Dear Employees of Linden Lab,

Who's watching Mr. Klingdon today?

http://nwn.blogs.com/nwn/2008/11/mark-kingdon-on.html

Okay, I've held back during all of this, other than to make a few comments about LL exercising faulty engineering and business analysis, and faulty business-decision and communications skills.

But this interview is just too much. Mark Kingdon voices so many demonstrable errors in fact that it's not just scary, it's terrifying--and it's actually even more terrfying that LL would hire someone of such shallow knowledge and perception to run the company.

I don't usually talk about myself in SL, but just to couch my terms in something credible, I have to say that I have graduate degrees in computer science and education. I help run a very profitable small company, and I am a senior systems engineer within it. I've worked in IT and engineering in severeal countries for several companies, ranging from Asia to Europe, and from multi-nationals to my own firm. Oh, I also have a degree in business.

I got into SL to learn the technology and try to gauge its effect on the future of society and technology. I've spent some time and skull sweat. I've done this on my own, because it is interesting.

If this interview reflects the true beliefs and ideas of Mr. Kingdon, and I have no reason to believe it does not, as Mr. Au is a very reliable correspondent, then yes, I'll admit it: LL and SL are in deep trouble. Mr. Kingdon's ignorance of the platform he is supposedly managing is obvious and immeasurable. I am shocked not only that he occupies his current position, but also that anyone at LL who has a shred of business sense allows him to speak in public.

I've always been a firm supporter of SL and LL, for many reasons. This inteview has shattered that faith, and prompted me to begin planning my withdrawl from the platform.

I cannot believe what I have just read !
M Linden has just destroyed what remained of my confidence in his business.
That's the first time in my life I've seen a CEO so ignorant of what his business and platform is.
As for, Premium members , I am sure they are sooooo happy to know they are "immaterial" to him (bitter laugh)
I bet the dollars people give for this will become "immaterial" very soon

Yeah I can honestly say that was a kick in the nuts to me too. But in a strange way I am not surprised. Since you dont have to be premium to own private islands, only mainland requires it (or at least thats the way it was last time I looked). I kinda figured they would close that loophole someday but I guess they just dont care to bother.

I strongly suspect much of the mainland is owned by a relatively few accounts and thats what is driving his comment. Premium dues just dont stack up enough to hurt thier bottom line when compared to island fees and lindex fees.

One thing this makes me more certain of. That mainland tier hike is coming and sooner than I honestly expected.

Sighs at yet another LL mess and wonders why I let myself get caught up in the whole situation. Result was way to predictable.

On the high side its nice to know things dont change much around here.

One very dissappointed 4.5 year resident heading off to bed no longer wondering whats going to happen.

Dark

You guys have to see this

www.youtube.com/watch?v=MoQh4R1-Vjs

I think they are offering the service some time next year. It is light years ahead of SL
So if nothing else looks like SL has some serious competition just around the corner

Looks like the decrease in customer satifaction may be more important shorter term than I thought.

What will be very funny is that when some people have converted 4 opensims into a full sim, we will certainly have another Jack Linden's announcement stating that this "huge amount of new full sims was not expected and in order to improve your SL experience , we will have to increase full sims fees by 67%"...
Knowing him now I am sure he will add "people abused by converting their OS in such a large number"...

Something I've seen themed throughout the replies here is the notion that this is some kind of punishment. I'd like to address that.

This is a business decision by Linden Labs to raise their pricing. They've decided to build a fiber optic run for their server clusters, connecting all of their data centers. This is a very expensive prospect.

What they have chosen to do is to pass this cost along to you and I, rather than using the money we've already invested in them.

This isn't a punishment, it's a calculation. They believe that everyone will complain and cry, but ultimately continue pouring money into SL at an equivalent rate. I'm sure they've done extensive analysis on this whole thing, including the percentage of tier fees that will be lost versus dollars gained from increased fees and they believe it'll come out in their favor.

If you are truly upset about this, simply stop spending money in SL. Not just your tier fees, but everything. Stop buying skins, and clothes and furniture. If the SL economy comes to a screeching halt (a scenario I'm not even remotely considering will happen, since most people will whine but not actually take any action to alter the situation) they'd listen. Until that happens this is all a waste of time, energy, and server resouces for the forum.

If someone is making a plan to organize this kind of reaction en masse, please IM me inworld, or message me on here. Elsewise, I'll consider this a place for people to vent ineffectually before running back into SL and buying some hair and complaining in there with their friends while they shop...

When gambling was removed because of US puritism a lot of gamblers headed over to hipihi to continue spending their money.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XNdqJcmbMBI
has a view of Hipihi. Its still not as advanced as SL but fast closing the gap.

Just another virtual world creeping up to make a lot of unemployed Lindens soon

As an owner of two full and seven open sims i have simply had enough. I recently turned in three open sims because of the crazy real world economy and now I plan to turn in the rest because of this joke of a move by LL. I have read a lot of comments and speculation about people abusing the open sims and of course everyone knows this is simply not not true. People were only using what LL gave them to use and it would be silly to suggest that they could even attempt to do otherwise.

I suspect there is a bit more to this story. It is more likely that LL is facing some of the same serious financial issues that the rest of the world is up against. I am sure a lot of regular SL residents, like me, have been actively cutting back lately as they started to see their investments erode and their economic power dwindle in RL. I think it is also true that LL is probably suffering a drop in their corporate support as well. Most companies would be hard pressed to invest in SL when it is on such shaky ground and their own liquidity is at risk. Corporations, just like you and me, tend to drop (or cut back on) so called frivolous expenditure when times get tough.

So what is a CEO of a game company to do? Well he can try to recoup by increasing the prices to its most popular product. 66.6% on the most popular product will probably drive revenues quite high. While they are at it they can hit those lowly non-profits and educational programs that don't really contribute to the bottom line. Honestly this is the way I think they are reasoning with themselves.

Like all of you I really love SL. It is a phenomenon unique in history filled with the spirit of great people from all over the world. Unfortunately many of those great people just can't afford to go on paying exorbitant fees per month when, in their hearts, they know they know LL has made it impossible for them to earn anything back. I commend all of them for trying though even though I can see by these messages that many are throwing in the towel.

I guess it might be an opportune time to take a look around and see what some of the other (hopefully smarter) CEOs are doing in the virtual reality space. I hear good things are happening out there. Maybe this is just what they needed to get some real visibility as people look for alternatives. They tell me that lag problems are rare and that the platforms actually work without expired sim hand offs and other such unrepairable bugs. The prices are supposed to be within reach too... imagine that.

I am going to vote on this issue with what really counts - my money.

Private island are the most regulated, most policed, most policy-enforced region in SL. It is hard to believe that Private Estates are abusing the land-use, when I have not seen any private island estate that does not have a long list of conditions on the covenant.

The fact is, most private islands are residential, not commercials or club use. They rarely have avatars staying for any long periods of time in these private homes.

If the tenant violates any of the conditions in the covenant, they will be kicked out in no time.

Compared to the mainland where there is no covenant, no police, no one will ever kick you out, everything goes, and that is where the abuse is.

Just because they have beautiful builds in the Openspace, it does not mean they are abusing them. They cannot exceed their prim counts. What measures does Linden use to measure abuse, except for hunches?

If they build clubs in Openspace, the traffic is usually only momentary, lasting maybe a couple hours at the most. How many clubs actually running full populated with dancers 24/7?

The only ones that are populated are the camper bots, which happens more so in mainland, and is an independent issue from Openspace sim, as Jack admitted too.

Linden still have yet to show any hard facts/data to support its assertion that Openspace is the source of abuse. If there are abuse, the percentage is really in the minority given the strict covenant building and population code in most Private Estates.

Linden thinks the price hike will only affect Estate Owners, but the fact it, it is the tenants that will foot the bill. Effectively, it is killing everybody, except maybe those TRUE ABUSERS who live in mainland where everything goes with no covenant to enforce.

Nicoladie Gymnast wrote a rather well detailed description on how simulators worked. In it he describes how avies create lag because of the asset server load created by the avies having to load textures within the view ditance radius. Yes, that does create quite a bit of lag, especially when the viewer is broken and continues to demand texture downloads despite having recently loaded them. So, the problem, though correlated to the number of avies in a a SIM, is highly exacerbated by this viewer bug. Any claims of abuse lie with the Lindens themselves for having released a massively broken series of viewers. Further compounding this problem is their lack of work to date on trying to resolve it. Asking for more repros on something ovbiously and blatently broken is not true work. Fix it and watch the entire grid load on the asset servers and the network drop five-fold.

Fix it and Openspace 'abuse' will go away, and yes, what remains might be over-avied OS sims, but that can be fixed by lowering the max avie limit on OS sims to 1/4th the limit on full SIMs.

My trust and respect for the Lindens will be thoroughly destroyed when this viewer bug remains unfixed until after January. And yes, there is practically nothing I can do to influence our Lindens because they truly hold all the cards in their favor. Yes, I was a sucker to have been baited into paying the setup fee for an openspace SIM, and the best I can do is cut my losses having been switched to a massive price rise. No, not playing that game, I'm dumping the OS sim soonest. And since I never expect to go to that cesspool called the mainland let alone buy a parcel there, I don't need to continue my premium account. Come annual renewal, I'm going basic.

I shall live free and wander, visit friends, gather in public spots, window shop, and help OpenSIM grow and get better.

To: Mark Kingdon take a look at your house before placing the blame totally on the OS Sims.

Yes there are very good examples of them being abused for example one I looked at last night with a traffic figure of 92000 and campers spread across the entire map with frame times in excess of 50ms.

But to my point I/We maintain a retail location on the mainland in the last 4 days I have had to issue problem tickets two times to have it reset because of a massive overload of the sim time other.

Running in excess of 20ms driving the frame time above 40ms solid. This was with a normal load of avatars, 12 to 15. This is a retail Sim.

I also sent in a detailed trouble ticket with the location of trash dropped on company land and abandoned first land plots.

After the first reset this class five server came back to life and ran for 30 hours or so before problems began again.

Your people came down and cleaned up the trash and again restarted the server. As of now it is back running in good working order. It will be interesting to see when this server again runs out of memory and has to go to the swap file.

This is just one of your Sims on the mainland and from what I understand there are 5000.

If even 10% of them have similar problems, and the number is much greater from my observations, there is a great amount of lag coming from them.

Perhaps you need to do a little cleanup and diagnosis or your company lands before laying such a heavy blame on the OS Sims.

Any OS that has any significant traffic is certainly suspect as they do create lag, but take this to the owners who are abusing the system instead of making such a sweeping decision.

Oh and as far as your interview, if memory serves me there are 75,000 to 90,000 premium accounts required to own land on the mainland. I know they all do not pay the $9.95 per month as I do not. I pay quarterly, but even at that level if you do not want the six hundred thousand dollars in subscriptions and the tiers generated by them I will send you my bank routing information and you can just send it right over.

That single statement was the most irritating thing I have heard in this total issue.

I have been a premium user since 2005 transferring the account to my active avatar as I grew and changed. With this single statement you have made me think do I really need the 1500 square meters I have on the mainland. Why not just close it and use our main facility on an Island, full btw, and terminate my premium account that still receives the 500 L stipend each week.

Once the words are spoken you can not take them back and this to me reflects the arrogance that has become the company you represent.

Quite disappointed to say the least

Yeah. The Mainland market is in collapse (L$750K half-sims that won't sell notwithstanding). Prices were in free-fall for a while, such that the last attempts at auctioning off hunks of Gaeta went without bids. (I actually have no idea if those things ever sold somehow, or if they still belong to the Governor.) So, a few months ago, they stopped regular Mainland auctions, hoping prices would recover. For a while it seemed it might be working, but then there was a slump again. Then they announced the revised adfarm policy. Lately I've noticed a slight firming on the bottom of the Mainland market, but I can't guess when full-sim auctions will resume. Sometime after these little Nautilus City parcels clear the auction block, I think it's fair to assume.

There's also a chance that, when they resume, they'll start with "zoned" sims (as distinct from the "themed" Nautilus City parcels), whatever that ends up meaning. They could be quite appealing, but we've had no information at all yet about what "zoning" is going to mean.

Well, I kind of hope not. Some things are not quite accurate about the description... mostly, things described as happening on the sim are--in SecondLife--actually performed in the viewer. Sim processing is held to the minimum necessary to make everybody's viewers see (more or less) the same events happening in-world; the viewers do all the rendering, lighting, particle effects, smooth rotation, avatar animation... lots of stuff that might reasonably be considered "simulation"--it just doesn't happen on the server side in SecondLife. But anyway, I agree that this all has been hashed out enough that very few readers of this thread are interested in details here.

And I think we're all coming to more or less the same conclusion: Without information that we do not have, we simply cannot assess the impact of OpenSpaces on the backend services and networks. For example, LL *may* have information about which asset server calls stem from OpenSources--but we don't. We certainly don't know how much of any disproportional impact from OpenSpaces is attributable to design, as opposed to subtle usage patterns that are only apparent over large numbers of sims. Trying to second-guess LL's claims of disproportional OpenSpace impact is hopeless: we have access to almost none of the relevant statistics, and we can only speculate about whether LL has collected and analyzed them.

That's not as big a problem as some people think, because the sims use a Squid cache and deliver the textures to you from that cache rather than having to go back to the asset server all the time. The biggest hit from avatars these days is apparently from the presence table (formerly the presence server, now part of the database servers) and groups.

From M, in http://nwn.blogs.com/nwn/2008/11/mark-kingdon-on.html,



From M, in http://gigaom.com/2008/10/30/protest-threatens-linden-labs-profitability/,


It would seem that neither open space sim owners nor premium accounts are important to their business model.

If this is not true, I hope someone from Linden makes some sort of statement about it.

Firelight

Yea, we'll seee how important they are when some larger land owners start to pull out.

LL will have a clearance sale from all the abandon land LOL.

"In the next few days, however, Kingdon says the company will post an update to this policy which will incorporate feedback from Openspace owners."

Yeah so much for LL letting us know whats happening

This just came over concierge group chat:

[5:36] Jack Linden: Yes, we should have a detailed update for everyone before Thursday [5:37] Jack Linden: I'm pushing for tomorrow morning. I'm hoping that M will blog then

LMAO.............M is CEO gives an interview and makes statements like this........

I have heard many things from businesses who commited suicide through bad policy decisions and dumb statements.........but M I think this statement of yours regarding premium accounts being immaterial is gonna go down in history as one big ARMEGEDON STATEMENT

I cannot imagine that M has a professional PR dept. who writes his speaches or prepares him for interviews.......because no PR professional would ever allow such statements to go out to the press

Having worked in advertising, for many years, for one of the worlds biggest advertising agencies I would say LL has created one mega image problem.........and I don't think the company I work for would even take on the challenge of trying to remarket and improve the image of LL..............would be like flogging the proverbial dead horse

There is no amount of damage limitation that can be done to erase this blunder.......WOW and I thought bringing in a top manager was gonna make things turn round in this virtual world I love so much...........how wrong one can be

All this reminds me of a great english TV series..........Only Fools and Horses........I think even Del Boy could run LL better....... and in the wise words of Del Boy......YOU PLONKER !

A real case of the blind leading the blind .


Take care M..........see you on another virtual platform........rofl