Openspace Announcement Discussion with Jack Linden

People, why are you giving up the OopenSims up wehn you can still wait and do it in 2 months? If you do it now, you loose the only way to pressure them. Instead of threatening them to leave and all, you do it for real. Now they just need to wait everyone that isnt willing to pay the 50 Dollars more are gone and left are those who will pay anyway.

Also, its still 2 months till that new pricing will be done, if you leave your OS behind now and they dont change the pricing and simply take everything back, you lost everything and cant get it back.

Hate and agner are not good in situations like this, if you guys would think rational, you all would know that its true what I´m saying.

Also, the "I leave SL" thing is a revolving door: everyone who now says he/she will never come back, will be bakc in some weeks, months or years. Saw that happening in all kind of cummunites.

There is no other game in the world that charges so much to the paying customers and provides so little for the money. They are nothing more then an ISP, they provide the servers for people to conduct bussiness in.

LL only has to worry about the servers stability, that includes proving a stable client to use their services. Simply put, all they need to do is keep the machines running and upgrade the infrastucture to meet the demands that they are payed for. If they cant keep up with the demand the simple solution is to stop selling services they do not have the capacity to meet and upgrade the infrastucture to match the demands. THATS what they are paid for.


They do not have hord of content developers working constantly to produce new content for it. We the players do it all. Hell they don't provide assistance for 1/1000th of the support calls with in second life.. the players for the most part handle that too.

LL runs a bussiness with very little overhead and lots and lots of profit, they provide internet services to other bussinesses that operate on their services.

Its not a game at the money changing hands level.

If you were planning on investing in SL land and didn't take into account the possibility of a 70% shift in pricing then you're an idiot. This is like the third time LL have shifted prices by these sorts of proportions in 2 years. Full sims go from $1600 to $1000, estate tier goes from $195 to $295, mainland prices go from L$2/sqm to $16/sqm and back to L$2/sqm.

Fact is there is more land than people, cant any off you see that, do you want the laws of supply and demand change cos you don't like it, face facts and make plans to lessen the blow. FACT THERE IS MORE LAND THAN PEOPLE.

i agree with Linden Lab's change in pricing. its not about greed. its about using the product for what its intended.

I think we can see that. However, the solution to that is to raise the cost of the product and/or reduce the supply. As far as I can tell LL is still supplying new land (Nautilus project). It almost looks as though from LL's point of view there is NOT more land than people, otherwise why release more land onto an already glutted market?.

Furthermore, it's not the cost of the product they are raising .. it's the cost of maintenance, which affects those that have already bought the product. That doesn't solve the problem since the evidence is that people will give up the product, flooding the market with yet more unsold land.

It seems I am on the fast-track to what is quite possible for many people and perhaps insight of the future fall out.

I rented an OS sim 3 months ago. Reasoning was I was already paying $75 a month for several mainland areas (some of which were surrounded by ad boards, some were commonly driven through, and all were subject to intruders and griefers at some point). For the same amount (as the owner was doing this at cost), I could have an area the size of an entire sim and lots more peace and quiet. It wasn't a hard decision to make.

I had a house with scripted doors and windows, approx 25% water with 2 jetskis, 2 hammocks with poseballs, and a skydiving landing pad. I was usually the only one there, but there were times when 4 avatars were there at once. Prims were never maxed out and there was never lag on my or any of the 3 adjoining OS sims.

I placed my mainland land for sale, enjoyed this new found space and privacy, and never looked back... until a couple days ago when the true owner said I had a months notice to find something else as the OS price was changing and for them it was not an option to keep the several OS areas they had.

Well, today it seems they decided not to postpone the inevitable price change and cut their losses ASAP. The sim was sold to others to be used as one of the four required to complete a full sim upgrade. I have no problem with that, it is people trying to make the best of a bad situation. It is a lot cheaper to convert 4 OS to a full sim than purchase a new sim outright.

So now the mainland is gone and the OS I came to thoroughly enjoy is gone. Moving back to the mainland is not an option for me as 90% of it I do not care for. Finding another OS certainly is an option, but not at the proposed price level. It simply is not worth it to me.

Which brings this simple reality - SL is owned by LL, but LL surely doesn't solely make it what it is. It is the people, the people's imagination, and the people's vision that give value and meaning to SL - be that IBM and all of their free money to pour into SL or the simple dress maker using a 512 sqm plot of nothing.

So what do they have in common? The fact that I don't have to spend a dime to enjoy either of their efforts or creativity. So what is the cost? To me, the little guy at the bottom of the ladder - nothing... I have $75 back in my pocket.

But the guy at the top of the ladder needed the steps along the way to get to the top. Not only are the real business owners and venturers going to feel the pressure from LL above; they quite possibly will also have to deal with a yet unrealized shift of the ladder stability should other little guys decide not to absorb what those higher guys are forced to pass on.

Granted, my view is limited to that of a 'renter', but I imagine the reactions from the 'bottom up' can and will take many forms - regardless of how the OS is used. And for those upset about how they are used, LL never made an OS TOS - they simply made recommended usages while condoning all uses. Don't blame the people who used what was given to them and their creativity or vision. Blame LL - the ones who turned a blind eye to all uses until after the fact and then tried to pass on the accountability from their vagueness.

Strange that this thread is called "Discussion with Jack Linden".

Hi, I just have a few questions about your explanation of why you wish to put a lot of your customers out of business. Outside of the placebo drivel about listening to us the core of your message was here:

“Thirdly, I wanted to clarify one issue. As mentioned in the post, Openspaces were intended for space, empty areas of ocean or forest. Take a look at the Knowledgebase article description here. By that criteria, the large majority of Openspaces have more going on than was the original intent. We are not suggesting this is a bad thing, and of course we’re delighted that people have found them to be so useful. And we’re not saying that everyone is abusing resources. We are saying that the use has changed, and continues to do so as people find more creative ways to use them. So the revised pricing is about recognising that change of use and the additional costs and value associated with it.”
First, IF the utilization of Openspace is a problem, I would like to know how lining your pocket even more will solve it? Perhaps I am missing something, if we are NOT abusing resources then I assume it costs more to have electrons SAVED on RAM as opposed to having them empty? So what are these additional costs? The comment about additional value I understand….one of your customers made improvements on his own time, with his own talent, and now you want to cash in on it.

I make this statement because I understand about vanishing items. Let us reason a bit, we (your customers) are not the apathetic idiots you take us for. It is a simple matter, and good customer service, that when an item vanishes to check the persons inventory to see that it was in fact missing….and the transactions seeing where he bought it, and that it was not given away. You could even demand the transaction number where he obtained it to lighten your heavy workload. You don’t. Why? Well, most all missing items need be replaced, this means somewhere along the line someone must buy additional Linden Dollars…..and I wonder who creates these (and profits from that).

Well, customers put up with this because to date you have kept your larceny within bounds for most of us. We CAN either replace an item or do without. Tier, however, cannot be put off, ergo you will be driving some to leave their land. This is not a wise business decision. I remember when SL was nothing more than space and we were floating eyeballs. A good 99% of what we have now has come from customers. What is happening here is exactly what happens at a military community folk fest, let me explain:

Folk fests for German/American Friendship are held yearly, with the profits being cashed by the military community….and what Government agency does not want more money? The labor is volunteer (like most of yours) so there is no cost there. The materials, come from the commissary which is not taxed. Let’s take a hamburger: it costs roughly .35 US$ for the ingredients (Patty, buns, lettuce, condiments), be generous and throw in an extra 5 cents for the coal to cook it. Labor is free (soldiers donating their time). So what does this Colonel ask for this hamburger? FIVE EUROS!!!!!!! Aha, greed. Well, it is also a bit of stupidity. Most Germans no longer will plunk down this amount, so instead of making .90 US$ profit from 100 burgers sold…he gets 5.60 US$ from one burger sold.
I see this as closely akin to what you are proposing. I see you trying to KILL the golden goose. I also see it blowing up in your face in short order.

While I realize there ARE stupid and apathetic people out there….the Democratic Party is proof of that…..please do not assume we all are. Somebody, always realizes what you are doing, even when you play a shell game. Buy your new Mercedes next year, you can drive one more than 12 months you know.

What i said in my last post in reply to this was inverted.
Although i agree with lucinda (more land than people), the laws of supply and demand state that if there is an oversupply of a product then the price of that product must fall in order to attract people to buy said product.

What is happening at the moment is twofold
a) LL releasing more land onto the market
b) LL are raising the ongoing cost of using the product to an extent that the owners of the product are planning to return it. This further gluts the market

THIS IS A EMAIL THAT I GOT FROM 1 OF MY RESIDENCE I AM A CO OWNER OF THE SCOTTISH SIMS IN SL WITH MY PTR LAKE RHODE THAT IS GOING TO GO OUT OF BUSINESS JUST LIKE A LOT OF OTHER PPL
[11:05] Harriet Gausman: Hi Tonie, I flew around the estate and nearly cried when I saw all the empty parcels. Why have people left so soon. I think it will be all sorted soon. I have a feeling. But what I wanted to ask is are you considering turning some back to regular sims. I would do what I could do keep Milk Wood and if it meant purchasing it again as a sim then maybe. I don't know it depends on how much it all is. How much my tier would be if you continue to keep the estate. What a dreadfully sad, time. I would hate to lose my wonderful Milk Wood and I know my members feel the same way. There is nowhere quite as special. Anyway, keep me in the loop. I voted NO today and will put some of the protest posters around the place also. Harri

IM SURE MANY OF YOU OUT THERE HAVE EMAILS FROM YOUR RESIDENTS LIKE THIS IF U DO PLEASE POST THEM. I THINK THIS EMAIL SAYS IT ALL !!!!!!! THX HARRIET

I'm sorry I dont have time to read all of this thread and the forum interface sucks so searching is futile also. I apologise if this has been asked and answered already..

Where can I find the guide and benchmarks for a "good neighbour" opensim? I've looked everywhere since I first got my two sims several months ago. Never found anything that tells me what I should keep an eye on, what can hog shared resources and/or degrade others' performance etc.

How do I tell, from looking at my statistics bar, if I am an overloader or not?

Ummm

What economics classes have you taken, they must have differen laws of supply and demand where you come from .. normally when suppy is higher then demand prices go down, not up....... its when there is more demand then supply that prices go up.



Shakes head, if your going to try to troll at least kinda know what your talking about.

Wow, 200+ pages of folks mostly saying the same thing over and over.

Yet I don't see a response from the Lindens on this.

Is it not obvious, from just the responses on this thread, that you need to reconsider this move, Mr. Linden?

IF this change actually happens, then it's impossible for me to believe that there is not the hidden agenda that so many have spoken of in this thread. Linden must want you folks to abandon your OS SIMs.

LL releasing more land to the market... then raising the costs of its major competitors (us) to double what they charge for the same ammount of land is by design. I don't see it as anything else.

What better way to fill your properties then by driving your competitors out of the market.

I wouldn't say an idiot, not everyone has a lot of time in world nor have they experienced the changes in pricing in the past.

At the beginning of the hype, private estates sold for $1375 (if I remember right) with a recurring cost of $195. OS was available then too, sold in lots of 4 for the same price as a regular region, but 1/2 the tier collectively.

Since then, the price of estates has increased to $1675/$295 recurring when class 5 servers were introduced. There was a huge uproar at that time by residents, namely because of the short notice given. A window was opened where premium residents could purchase a class 5 at the old rate of $1375/$195 and be grandfathered (which is still active today). Upgrades to class 5 for private regions were offered for a fee. OS were offered in blocks of 4 still, but at the new price for the old amount of prims. Justification at that time for the price increase was costs were compared with others in the industry and LL found themselves at a much lower rate (I'm too lazy to research the blog that far back to provide the link).

Since then, Havok4 and mono were introduced grid wide.

Then LL releases the OS regions with a prim allowance matching the cost of 1/4 of a private region as well as promoting a sale of full sims for $1000/$295 (which of course created another uproar for those who recently (at the time) purchased a full sim at $1675.

Then you have day before yesterday.

===========================

This is a bit off topic, but while typing the above list of events, it came to me.

One thing the Lab has been consistent with is their initial lack of consideration for those who have done recent purchases when they introduce price changes. It seems it's always an afterthought brought on by an enormous amount of negative feedback by residents.

I know there are a number of LL employees that do care about the residents. Torley is always just crazy everywhere all the time. Pathfinder was literally in the face of residents during the Havok 4 implementation both in world and on the blog. I could list many more but we all know them. My point is the time to be the most considerate is the time we're impacted negatively the most--our checkbooks. Putting a wall down 2 months out & saying "you're all screwed" just put you right back in this position yet again.

I know you're a business, but has the past not taught you anything? Yes a penny saved is a penny earned, but you were(?) ready to rape ALL OS owners. Is this pattern going to continue where residents have to threaten to set fire to a paper bag full of dog poo on your corporate welcome mat to get an ounce of fairness?

YES we want SL to be successful, by far more than what you've already achieved. We want Philip to be 95 riding in his hoverround to his great grandchildren's desk so he can lean over and mumble "I started that $hi7", but how many more eye-in-hand bootprints are we going to have to bleach out of the backsides of our clothing?

They are. See http://blog.secondlife.com/2008/10/29/update-regarding-the-openspaces-announcement/ .

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OM0g-7sZeSo

i still love you , SL

Jack,

Not surprisingly you made this announcement in such a way as to create a panic. Now, in light of the reaction, you are "rethinking" it. The problem is our fellow landholders are at months end and either have to pay the piper or pack up.

Since the news of this debauchle has spread like wildfire the tenants on many estates are proactively making the deicision for them by packing up themselves and abandoning their parcels.

Your lack of a clear response here is costing us dearly. 300 people at office hours to hear you cherrypick a few questions to answer isnt the discussion that needs to be had...

Why won't you admit your responsibility for creating this mess in the first place by ignoring the pleas not to glut the land with these OS sims? You were warned by many of us and you ignored those warnings because you could not resist the increased tier fees.

Where is the acceptance of responsibility for a poor decision and the apology for having created this mess? Instead we get an irresponsiblly abrupt rate hike and are facing a mass exodus.

Do something responsible to bring this to an end. Lets have the final solution before everyone has to pay their tiers again.

Answer the tough questions for a change.

Nothing changes on this round of billing or the next one..

Sindy, think about the end-users, can they believe their Landlord holds their land? would theiy pay them and the landlord is leaving with the money without saying goodbye?


LL has more than one time destroyed believe in words, think about the people they steal whole shops and LL allows it ( because they didnt do anything against them, like against thieve-land-bots)

Addressing 300 avatars in a laggy region in-world, while cherry picking the questions is not a responsible attempt to address the issues. The questions are here by the 1000s, in the discussion thread they created for the purpose. The reponsible thing to do would be to roll up their sleeves, sit down in front of a browser, open this thread, and start responding.

People by the thousands are abandoning their land as we speak because it is the end of the month, we need answers, now. Its costing real money, right now, and instead of doing anything about it they are busy connecting their pixels to their overburdened simulators and having "lets pretend" meetings.

The questions are here. The answers should be here.
The problem is now. The answers need to be now.

I am thinking about the end-users. Hopefully, these estate owners who are talking of bailing now and screwing their users over will think about them too and give this a little time before they jump ship.

I understand that nothing changes... in terms of price hikes from LL.

You do understand that residents are already packing up and leaving? They arent waiting to hear what will happen next.

THey need to hear from the lindens what the final solution looks like, yesterday.

Nothing changes for them, either. The landlord has two months to wind things down properly, should they choose. If you do not trust your landlord to do so, maybe you're renting from the wrong person in the first place.