Openspace Announcement Discussion with Jack Linden

When do you plan on having full avatar and scripting support? Without that, it doesn't matter what your prices and physics are like.

If performance is the problem, then please consider technical solutions. It would take little effort to implement input validation criteria that basically says "if max_agent > AGENT_LIMIT then max_agent = AGENT_LIMIT". Also, check out VServer and rlimit. Restricting resources for processes to allow multiple virtual servers to run on the same machine without one impacting the performance of the other is not a new concept. A technical problem needs a technical solution.

If there is another problem that requires a financial solution, then what you are proposing will make 3 openspace sims economically equivalent to 1 normal sim. Furthermore, you are suggesting that redistributing sims on servers to allocate only 3 openspace sims per CPU core is "on the table", which would make 3 of these sims equivalent to 1 normal sim in terms of resource allocation as well. In that case, I ask that we be allowed to convert 3 openspace sims to 1 normal sim starting now. I also ask that transfer fees for openspace sim transfers be waved from now until end of January, in order to encourage stronger estates to buy those estates that are shutting down the business and thus minimize impact on residents who may currently be renting sims in those estates.

The last time I checked "there.com", it required internet explorer, was windows-only, had negligible avatar customization, no in-world building or scripting, and no building or scripting at all except through an expensive process with expensive tools. There.com is like second life the way a paint-by-numbers set is like an art studio.

With all our knowledge about creating Virtual Worlds bearing in mind its US not LL that has created SL, We could have Openlife up and running to SL standards in about a year or two. LL may think they are another microsoft but reality they are nothing more than an ISP.

Thats my 2 pennysworth on the subject

you can move your shop to a full sim or mainland sim, sl screwed up they put 16 were 4 should have gone and the demand for the os sim out striped there ability to provide the resource's for them, basically they sold what they didn't have, now they discovered this and raised the price to slow or reverse the demand and provide cash to provide the resource's for those left, they will have to re engineer the whole concept, mean while they have a huge amount of mainland and full sim resources unused, much of this forum is about this, oh and snowflake who ever she is.

Thankyou, i know that well. I have been before on a fullsim with three clubs in neighbourhood, so i couldn't even walk. I do not experience any lag in my shop, so i think, also other opensims on the same processor will not do that. There are about 10-15 people along a whole day. I also have my home there. I will not give up my dream and continue to work for SL at the same time.

*** But that has not been my question ***

My questions is:

Why do only people that work hard for SL have to pay all the costs?

A lot of the discussion boils down to what 'light use' is. If it helps, this is the math I used when we went for an OS sim.

a) Lindens offered the OS sim with 1/4 the prims of a full sim. It is disingenuous to believe that they or anyone else intended that an OS would use LESS than this. Sorry, but human nature is always to use up to what you are given.

b) The OS sim architecture is to run 4 sims on a CPU. Assuming this, an OS sim has 25% of CPU resources. It already has 25% of the prim resources, so when calculating load I work on 25% of what is normally available.

Bear with me on this one and don't go to sleep in the back there. Be aware that the following is not .. repeat .. NOT authoratitive, but in the absence of anything else is what I work on.

My understanding is that a full sim works on a frame time of 25ms. (CTRL SHIFT 1, go to the bottom and expand the 'Time' line). The total frame time must be less then this otherwise the sim starts slowing down to handle the extra load (lag). Frame time is made up of physics, agent and script. Together these must be less that 25ms.

An OS sim is 25% of a full sim so lets say that the max frame time an OS sim can have is 6ms, lets allow for some unknown overhead so how about 5ms.

So for me, if my OS sim is bubbling around with a total frame time of 2.8ms I'm happy. Obviously LL aren't which is why they want to up my maintenace by 66%

Please, if someone knows better, correct me, but at least lets start getting a handle on this.

You are right i change my position it is just a game....
But games are still a business,

Football is a business too, and your either an owner, a venue, a player or a fan. The owners are there for love of game.. maybe... but mostly to make money. The stadiums sign contracts with the owners so they can in turn make money, paying the owner a portion of the profits. The team comes out to play and the fans in turn foot the bill.


Isn't this the same thing? If the Owner (LL) demanded more money then the venue can possably make (sim owners) .. then there is a major problem cause the (renters) fans are not just suddenly going to jump at the opportunity to pay a 66% price increase on the ticket value and the venue (sim owners) would be forced to not have the team (Sims) play there any more.

LOL ...so.... ok I guess you are right...its just a game.

sad fact of life im afraid, morals exist only when you can afford them, but they have promised to help.

As Jack states that the majority of these sims are being "abused" we're into custom and practice territory. Linden Lab never expressed that they should be used for anything else but they also never said they couldn't be. Indeed they basically implied that you could use it for anything you wish, but if you want decent performance you need to ensure light use and if you're engaging in heavy use then Linden Lab won't support you.

Nowhere did they forbid usage other than open waterways or forests. Indeed when they were voids they were being rented out. It is disingeneous in the extreme for Linden Lab to now try and suggest they were only ever meant to be used for forests or open waterways, both of which of course could involve heavy usage.

However selling the product as a stand alone sim really does imply it's not to expand an estate and no matter how much Linden Lab point to the knowledgebase article, this product would not have sold in such great numbers without people using them for residential purposes and Linden Lab damn well know it.

I think that the "unintended use" that Jack Linden spoke of is not simply utilizing 3750 prims.

The unintended use is for people who own a single full sim to buy a whole bunch of unattached OS sims, advertize them as places where there are no covenants or neighbors or restrictions, even setting up websites for that purpose, and then transferring "designated ownership" of the sim to the person who bought it that included concierge level support and the ability to resell to another resident with transfer of "designated ownership."

It was a way for people who could not afford full sims, to "own" open space simsl with all the rights of sim ownership.

Secondary markets, such as terraforming and sim development, began to flourish.

I feel so DIM for not knowing people were doing this.

It has been what game companies would call an "EXPLOIT":

"In the realm of online games, an exploit is usually a software bug, hack or bot that contributes to the user's prosperity in a manner not intended by the developers." (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Exploit_(online_gaming))

Jack Linden has said this as clear as day actually (now that I can see it, that is): people using the ability to sell detached OS sims to other people and transfer to them "ownership" privileges is an exploit of the policies set up for open space sims last spring.

They are simply doing what all gaming companies do when they uncover an exploit: plugging the hole. And the people who took full advantage of the exploit, those "land barons" who bought up and sold scores and hundreds of detached openspace sims with transfership of ownership rights and concierge level support to go with it, are having their lolly taken away.

Just as in 3D games, exploits ruin the economy. We have seen what this one did to the land economy in SL.

People who got concierge level support with OS ownership could actually have been paying $75 in tier for support at a level that usually costs $125 per month [I think I finally understand something Carl Metropolitan has been saying all along about there being no coincidence that the tier increase matches the level required to qualify for concierge-level support]. OS "designated owners" have been getting this level of support a lot more cheaply; perhaps this was another one of the unintended consequences of the policy changes last spring.

It is right to plug the hole - IF simply raising the tier will plug it. It seems to me that the way to plug the hole, however, is to stop allowing people to purchase detached OS sims as well as raising the tier on them. It has CERTAINLY been the right decision to end the practice of permitting transfer of "designated ownership."

We can't know if LL ever plans to allow individuals to own OSs without a qualifying full sim, or if it was ever a plan B or an ultimate possibility. But regardless, it is clear to me now that it SHOULD cost more to own an unrestricted open space sim.

I don't think this is about the heavy use of them, but more of supply and demand.

More openspaces were bought than you expected, so you up the price for a higher profit, which is a very popular buisness practice for obviouse reasons.

A shame you lie to the residents for the real reason huh? The only extra costs I can think of you guys having due to the heavy use you werent expecting, is bandwidth. I know how much bandwidth costs, and these price raises are deffanately not for "more maintanance"

If this is not a legit interpretation of use for a quarter-powered sim, then I *really* don't know what LL intended with them.

I hope you weren't accusing JR on this because you would be showing your lack of knowledge. Maybe you should check his website - he makes very clear what they are, yes, not everyone does but JR certainly has...

People who engage a thread just to be contrary as a way to "give their opinion don't suck? I guess they swallow

Not only this Ciaran, if I understand this correctly, then OpenSpaces will not appear in the land search. Not sure how this will work out as this will mean more work for the estate owner to give permissions on the land, as the land sale feature will be disabled. This is worse than a 50usd increase.



In addition, future use will be monitored and abusers will be educated.



So it appears that LL is zapping the OS estate owners on this one. I bet ya, if LL remains quiet on alternative options, that many estate owners will be holding the bag in December due to the lack of confidence in the overall SL population. Especially since LL does not interfere between avatar to avatar affairs, there will be a rise in theft of funds. Very unfortunate. All of this trickles down to the consumers paying the tiers.

It may be me being mistaken here, but I actually don't think that is true. The ones having concierge status are the landowners paying LL for the sims, regardless of which person or group the land is set to, just as it is with normal estates.
It has always been my impression that this was *specifically* the reason for not lifting the "you must already own a sim" restriction when lifting all the other restrictions on openspaces; to ensure that support was filtered through one concierge-level landlord, as all other rentals.

LOL... yes you are correct. All these games are also businesses. And they are all in existence to make money. The Owner does need to make sure they do not over-price their "product". I suppose only time will tell whether such a 66% increase will fly with sim owners or not. I suspect it will, just as those abandoned seats at the football game are filled with a fresh supply of "fans".

I'm quite sure that everything I have to say here has been said before. But, as I don't have the opportunity or time to read all the previous responses and posts, you'll have to forgive my redundancy, as I would like to add my voice to the din.

I work with the Justice League Unlimited in SL, and I rent an "Open Space" (void) sim from one of the leaders of this organization. It is largely uninhabited, supporting only a mainly vacant "Museum" and a second "island" area intended for smallish presentations to assist the SL community (on subjects such as security and the like, or for meetings of outreach or self help groups who do not have their own space in which to meet, held at no cost to them).

What puzzles me is why it is LL is balking at peoples usage of these sims (unintended or no)? Perhaps it was the intent that they be water or forest land... but, if LL did not restrict residents ability to do other things with these sims, is it really a surprise that we have?

SL is supposed to be resident created content. You have left many things wide open in order to allow us the ability to create this world *without* LL handholding us. Why then would there be any surprise that we have again drawn outside the lines?

If it were really a major issue for LL that these sims be kept to such a very narrow focus, one would think that those restrictions would have been built into the sims themselves... no build... no terraforming... whatever it is that would be necessary to keep their use to the "intended purpose".

But... to raise the cost to near that of a standard sim? When we have less than half the prim? Where is the incentive to *keep* these sims?

If it goes the way LL has stated, my landlord will relinquish her "Open Space" sim... I will rent a parcel someplace else in order to keep our outreach programs going, and for nearly the same prim I get in the Void sim, I will pay less money.

This is an anti-incentive for people such as we... people attempting to do good works with the SL community. People interested in aiding LL at *no charge* in helping their clientele.

Some food for thought.

~Fenix Harbinger

Certain types of Residents qualify for Concierge service, which entitles them to specialized support from Linden Lab. Concierge users are Residents who meet any of the following criteria:

Own an estate (private island/region).
Are the payor for an estate.
Pay tier for more than a half region's worth of mainland parcels.

If you look at some of the websites and ad where people are selling OS sims with "designated ownership" you will see that they specify that this comes with concierge-level support.

I am not sure what the mechanics of this has been, but it is clear that "designated owners" of OS sims have been getting concierge level support.

the reasons of the Linden are not good.
Why ALL must pay for a MINORITY?
I am thinking to abandon SL....
Robroy

This has happened with an NFL team in RL. The team was losing and many people did not want to go see, so the owners were losing money. They demanded 5 years free rent at the stadium.

What eventually happened was that the city who hosted the team then passed a law that caused all citizens to pay for unused stadium seats through their taxes.

It wasn't popular, but the city government got away with it.

Hmm. I'd missed *that* twist. Does that mean I can get a refund for "under-using" my openspace?

ETA: That grates somewhat against the general "you're on your own; we'll not help you with openspaces" vibe, and honestly never occurred to me.

Firstly I would like to thank Jack and the Lindens for organizing and/or attending the meeting and being so patient with all the chatters who continually talked throughout he meeting thereby reducing the number of questions he could answer.

I do believe that the extra burden of the OSS was not foreseen by LL. While I think they did anticipate a certain increase of the double prim effects, they probably did not anticipate the huge number of scripts and avies on them as produced by malls and clubs.

As a business, I do believe they should be able to increase the prices some for those who are abusing them. However I do believe that 67% is too high. I also believe that the educational sims should not be penalized for others "abuse"

Since the suggestions that have been offered such as monitoring, bandwidth level charging etc would only cost them more for LONG TERM increased resources in hardware and personnel I do not think those are viable alternatives.

After having given this much thought I would propose the following solutions:

1. Those that have less than 4 sims are probably not using them as huge profit generators nor for clubs and malls. ( I only have one attached and can assure you it was not a profit center nor a heavy use OSS). These should be offered the option of keeping them attached to their sims at the original 75mo cost with limits on prims (1875) , avies and scripts. Since those who do have the OSS have received some benefit from them, It is not entirely fair to ask for a 100% credit on them. If returned I would propose a prorated credit as follows:
ownership less than 60 days full credit of 250
Ownership of 3 months 230 credit
Ownerhip of 4 months 210 credit
Ownership of 5 months 190 credit
Ownership of 6 months 170 credit
Basically a credit of 250 less 20 per month ownership for those who owned them more than 2 months. Of course this only would apply to those who bought them after the announcement of the double prims offer and who own 1-4 sims attached to their full sims
Note this would not apply to those who have 4 OSS per full sim. Only the first 4 for their original full sim and if they are attached to one of their full sims.

While I realize this will place some burden of SHORT TERM resources in manpower to make these determinations of ownership, it was after all the poor forecasting in resource usage that caused them to make the original offer. Therefore they should be willing to accept some of the responsibility for the sake of good customer relations.

2. Educational sims - These groups do have budget constraints. Most of them have already prepared and submitted bugdgets for the 2009 year. Therefore they should be allowed 1 year before the increase. The increase after that should be 15-20% of the original price they were paying NOT the same price as other sims. To charge them the same price as non-educational sims would deter not encourage the flourishing of education. Also keep in mind that for every student they bring to SL, LL stands to gain that student as a future SL proponent and customer long term, thereby increasing L brought into the community. A sound marketing strategy in my opinion. Microsoft used this strategy. By offerring discounts to students and educators as a marketing strategy they increased the number of future microsoft users.

3. Customers with over 4 sims not attached to their original full sim:
Offer these a period of 30days to convert their OSS to full sims at no charge.
If they decide to keep them offer them the option of 3750 prim sims at their current rate of usage at your proposed price increase. Most of these fall into the heavy use category and can probably absorb the price increases. As well they have probably recouped there initial 250 investment.

4. Make a decision in the next 7-10 days regarding this issue. This will allow the current OSS owners who rent out the OSS to others the time to notify their residents. These residents are afterall entitled to fair warning.

The conversion of these OSS to full sims should help the overall full sim market and still allow those who use them to make profits.

5. Going forward prepare worst case scenario analysis of your land offerrings and make a risk analysis inorder to determine the appropriate pricing while also taking into account the effects on your main sim market and private sim markets. In addition consult with marketing, PR, and customer relations to determine the effects on customer satisfaction and future sales potential.

I hope you will seriously consider and decide to adopt this proposal.

Here is the current price breakdown for what people must pay for concierge service:

1-Own an estate (private island/region). $295/mo

2-Are the payor for an estate. $75/mo

3-Pay tier for more than a half region's worth of mainland parcels.$125/mo

So what LL has effectively done is to cut concierge service to people who should not have been getting it in the first place, but are because they are the payor at $75/mo.

They have done this in 2 ways, by first raising the price, and 2nd, making certain that the payor is also the owner. They ARE grandfathering to a small extent to allow people who are the payor but not the estate owner keep their concierge status for the time being.

(Effective Immediately

We will no longer allow the Owner of an Openspace to be changed to a different resident than the Payor. Initially we will not enforce this change on Openspaces where the Payor and Owner are already different but in those cases the only change allowed will be to set the Owner back to the Payor. This doesn’t affect the parcel level rentals, this is just focussed on the whole region rental of Openspaces.)

I can definitely see why they are doing this. It has to be a HUGE drain on the resources to provide concierge service to everyone who pays $75/mo, especially when they aren't even the owner of at least a 1/2 sim.