Openspace Announcement Discussion with Jack Linden

damn i know thats gonna suck i liked the sailing shows you did marktwain and this whole sham LL is pulling is horrible i just cant believe after all the money people have put into this they pull stunts like this on the users

But they ARE selling. For insane prices.

That is wonderful news for LL.
You (Linden Lab) claim they are not for use for anything else other than empty areas with trees then sell them to land developers and allow them to be able to make third parties owners of that OS sim and form estates and what are they supposed to do with it?

Create endless forests and rivers to do what exactly?
So you mean we are not meant to sail in these sims with physical objects in the form of boats that have scripts? Were we supposed to invite friends to meet us there and ask them to take off all prims that cost your sim in performance and remove all scripted objects?

WHAT A LOAD OF CRAP!

You made that claim mbecause you knew that they would not perform well for what they were sold as and you did not want to deal with the complaints so just claimed they were not to be used in any other way but hey sold THOUSANDS of them with no restrictions whatsoever.

Tell me please what the difference is "living" in a sim and having prims sit there in the form of a house or trees? having scripts that move a door or fish in the water?

Here's what me thinks, this has always been a SCAM! Sell them cheap get loads and loads of people to buy them then, raise the price and collect all the $$ from the ones that stay and watch all the others drop like rotten apples..

Oh, hang on there's another possibility, it might be, oh no surely not a company like Linden Lab was stupid enough to ignore the signs that what would happen if they offered cheap large land and did not put restrictions on them but just allowed everyone to do as they please.. then all of a sudden "uhhhh, derrrrrrr, uhmm.. i think we need to charge more"

COME ON! I have never seen such bad management. Guess what, it's the residents end up losing confidence in the grid. Why? because now all the open space sim owners have to pick up your slack ass management results and ask for more from their established owners and those people that have bought the land are going to walk away from their investments making a huge loss because you lot do not have a clue about creating a stable economy and a grid that runs on trust between it's occupants and creators and it's service providers.

Well done, once again, WE built it YOU fücked it up!

Lets watch this bomb explode in our faces all together shall we?

and my sim just gets right now atm I just check 353 in traffic. This is nothing more then highway robbery plain and simple.

Good idea. I'm going to vote on it.

I can see that the problem isn't the content (LL themselves upped the prim limit) but traffic, i.e. clubs and malls in OS sims.

LL describes and thinks of land in terms of sqm, most residents I know describe and think of land in terms of prims. I dont think any technical talk or warning in the world will change that and maybe ll needs to consider things from this angle too.

Evidently the performance of openspace is so bad because of the "overhead" in software to run the sims? So each openspace needs to run on the resources of a half sim to be able to be used like any other land and really be a quarter sim with more space, which is what lot of people want and need? If this is going to be done it would justify the price hike. Paying more per prim for worse performance isnt going to appeal to many peoplem but paying a premium to get a luxury product of more space I can see.

"If you wish to convert one regular region into four Openspaces, you can, so long as you still own at least one regular region after the conversion. Similarly, you can convert four Openspaces back into a regular region if you wish. Either way, there's a conversion charge of USD$100."

This seems to be solution already on hand for property speculators. and probably fix most of the problem as well.

NOW what ta heck with it, go ahead, raise em, when thos sl like games come out for the playstations and xboxes will all just head over there and you can kiss ll goodbye

You guys disgust me. This is the same BS, to be frank, LL pulled on us about a year ago.

I don`t own an openspace sims (Thank God), but to have hundreds, if not thousands, of people buying one because they could afford it at the $75 price, and now raising it with no grandfathering forcing some of these poor people to disown their land with only a 2 month warning is a very unethical thing to do.

I do not think it is wrong of you folks to see a need for this change and do it, but the way you all go about changing things is completely unfathomable to me.

I really think you need to stop posting, since you plainly are just stirring shit....the announcement has only been known to most sim owners for about an hour and the shock is still setting in. You are plainly NOT a sim owner, and really have no idea what its about.... your probably even using one of the free accounts that cause the vast majority of the system resource utilisation that Lindens so carefully fail to plan on.

If your not putting up the money...you have no comprehension of what this REALLY means to those of us who donate these resources.....adhering the the LL convenants agreed to at time of purchase....and just what the ramifications of this increase mean. If soemone increases their price by 15%....which is hefty but swallowed reluctantly in the real world....people dont flock away..but sales are certainly down. To increase by 66%...almost doubling the outlay for a non profitable purpose...WILL results in the destruction of that facet of the business.

The United sailing sims in Second life..... 120+ sims, mostly open space....have a low time population of around 1000 people, minimum, 24 x 7, and significantly more during big events. It has already been made very clear, and announced to the Second Life Sailing Association that these sims can no longer be supported but one of the major stakeholders. Now...occupancy...at any one time, versus overall number of people that use a facility, is about 10% of the overall. So 10-50,000 avatars will utterly and completely lose the one truly usable sailing location in second life, just because LL make a huge anit-trust decision.

Tell me thats good for second life? Tell me that isntills faith in the future of second life? Tell me that those 50,000 avis will remain in second life? Tell me that the 10,000+ avatars tat are in second life PURELY for the sailing...the locations for which are supplied almost exclusively from the pockets of generous benefactors....will remain in SL after this?

Bottom line...you cant.... NOW tell me this is a good decision by LL, and that the hundreds of commercial enterprises dependant upon that sailing community wont be impacted....and that the THOUSANDS of commercial enterprises that depend upon THOSE people wont be impacted? Right... I hear ya..... you cant....

here is a true victim....
I feel for you MarkTwain and all those who love to sail in your waters.

There's a lot of hue and cry over a seemingly arbritrary decision made out of the blue. (I suppose we should be glad they didn't drop THIS drama bomb on a Friday night?)

There are a hundred hells of better ways this could have been handled!

1) Temporary freeze on sales of opensims while evaluation is being conducted to see who the REAL abusers are - and who the owners of those estates are (perhaps lack of truth in advertising on the part of the estate owner, for example).

2) Grandfather in existing Openspaces *BUT* with scripts throttled. Those who are using them responsibly (hopefully) will understand this action, or at least be more willing to accept script throttling over a nearly 50% increase.

3) Understand that people WANT Openspace places FOR. A. REASON!

4) Understand the underlying reason, and market a NEW product accordingly.

5) Put the abusers of the existing Openspaces on notice that if they don't curb their abuse they will be moved to the new product.

Honestly guys, you've seen people exploit loopholes before, did you *seriously* expect people to NOT use Openspaces for residential and business?

Actually, I'm inclined to think you did see that, and were waiting for them to take hold as a viable market item before #$%^&'ing with it.

Wouldn't surprise ME at least.

*doubts the labbers will actually consider this, but hey... I can dream...*

So what they gave to months notice? Now my sim that i paid lotta money for is WORTHLESS. Whose gonna buy it and they know tier is gonna go up so high? If i sell and dont tell them but i know it then may be there gonna sue ME. Is LL gonna give back money i paid to them? They took my money then they made my sim worthless.

Think if u buy condo and u pay 100 thousands dollars for it. Ur condo fee is to hundreds dollars per month. Then the condo seller tell u Ah oh!!! We figured it wrong so now we gotta charge u THOUSAND dollars per month for condo fee. May be ur gonna pay obscene high condo fee or may be u cant afford it or dont like to do it. Then whats gonna happen? Ur gonna lose ur condo that u paid 100 thousands dollars for. No body is gonna buy condo from u bcz theres thousand dollars per month condo fee. If it happen u think theres not gonna be law suit???

LL sold sims and now they make policy that makes all open space sims they sold mostly worthless. Why? Bcz the servers cant handle it? No. Thats only there smoke screen. They are not honest. They got secret motive. I think they like to get rid of estate owners but i donno why. But im CERTAIN that there claim about server over load is total BS.

I dont think its gonna happen. LL made stupid business decision but there not total morons or they wouldnt have so big thing like SL. But they dont wanna have a law suit bcz may be stuff is gonna come out that they dont like to come out.

Lindens are just learning and following in the example of the US government. Let the middle class tax payers pay for it. I figure next month we going to hear how the regular sims are going to cost more. OOO better raise tier as well.

Hey Lindens have business class flights between Boston and Calif to pay for.

I may be considered one of those abusing openspace sims, I'm actually leasing one from the owner as a residence (oh the horror!) What else do you expect people are going to do with a sim that allows for a quarter of the prims of an island? Plant 3,750 trees on it? There's a reason why they wanted to support that many prims, and it's not to keep it open space. Regarding traffic, I'm the only person on the property 99.99999% of the time, and if I'm not, there's never more than three (except for one party I threw one time for my second rezday). Traffic count on it is a whopping 85. High-traffic sim, sure. Check out the traffic on the one behind mine, it's now got a club and all the people there firing off gesture spam and particles constantly, I'm sure that's worse, and I won't even get into script usage.

When I first started, it was laggy, but I could live with it. Wasn't quite as laggy as the mainland. I considered it a great deal. I went from half a sim on the mainland at $125 a month, to paying L$28,000 a month (about what, $90 to $100?) to lease an openspace sim instead, knowing full well that it supported half as many prims as what I had on the mainland. I'm leasing it for more than the owner is paying, but I'm not allowed to own one anyway, since I don't own a real island (nor can I afford to, not even close, fugget aboud it), so I don't personally object to them making a little bit of a profit on it.

Since then, the sim behind the one I'm leasing, owned by the same person and on the same server, opened a club, and the lag on the one I'm leasing skyrocketed beyond belief. But I've stayed there anyway.

Now LL wants to raise the price by $50 a month. Joy. So that increase will be passed on to me of course, meaning now I'll be paying $140 to $150 a month on this property, with worse lag than the mainland thanks to the new club, and only half the prims of what I used to own on the mainland?

I will be leaving this sim. I'll just go homeless and save up to buy some beachfront property on the mainland, and go back to owning half a sim there again. It is still only $125 to own half a mainland sim right? Or would somebody like to lease half an island to me for $125 a month?

Bad move. I wish the owner luck finding another sucker errrrrrrrr customer to lease this sim after I leave it.

Sorry to read that, Cinti

Welcome to LL rules

I`m sorry

This seems to be what LL enjoys doing to their customers. (Research the time when they upped the PI sim tier from $195 a month to $295!)

They picked a really bad time to do this as well. The RL economy is down the drain and people are not as willing to spend money as they used to be.

Wrong, wrong, and wrong.

I knew LL was going to do this and I posted a warning on it in the main forums over a month ago about the misuse of the OS sims.

I own multiple sims but I got away from the Openspaces when LL screwed me on my very first one. I was not impressed with the performance of the one I had either.

If you think I don't know what I am talking about you are dead wrong and I suggest you do your homework before making personal attacks against me or anyone else.

this is a bit different Snow and yeah this is more than an opinion.. it's a fact. As for no legal ramifications.. all it takes is pissing off enough people and this time they may have just done that. There is also a difference between raising prices with normal range (4 OP sims priced at 125 USD each = 500 USD a month, 150 USD more than a full prim sim) but this behavior certainly could possibly been seen as antitrust type of behavior. Hey, i'm no lawyer.

As an owner of an open sim I am quite upset with this whole thing. I bought an open sim for several reasons:

A) I couldn't afford a full sim.
B) I wanted a place where I could live and set up a place for parent support group.
C) I wanted a place where me and my one renter / friend could hang out and not be bothered by some of the more questionable activities that go on in SL.

A few months ago my dream came true - we have our little island - that is mainly waterways where we like to canoe - my 4 or 5 (yes - only that) parents come on Saturday mornings to discuss the challenges of raising a child with autism and the rest of the time we hang out and chat.

There is no business going on - no clubs - no unethical immoral activities and now we get punished for everyone else's activities. Gee - SL is following suit with the rest of society -- let's punish the whole instead of the few that have created this mess. So what I would like to know -- is SL going to refund our purchase prices?? I mean honestly - I'm not IBM here and I have no lucrative SL business generating me tons of Lindens. It was a bite for me to come up with the money to follow our little SL dream and I'd like to know what SL is going to do for us that will probably have to give our sims up. I'm fairly certain with all the people selling their sims the market is going to be flooded and drive prices down. Can you say Merry Christmas?

then i`ll bet every one in this thread will laugh their asses off when you _bitch_ when LL raises the fees of normal sims to be in par with voids, $495 a month, between their complaints to LL

i see that happening if they pull this shit trough now...

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA, you couldn't have called out her trolling any better Chris!!!

Wake up Jack!! Time for one of you Lindens to man up for what trouble you caused and actually try and answer some of these posts!!!!

Well could you start talking straight Jack? No one really believes that LL didn't know what these sims were being used for. In 2006 as founder of SL New England, I rode on a sailboat with you to discuss sim crossings. We sailed past homes on every one of those open space sims. Don Linden a developer was called in to test server city allocation and it's affects on sim crossings of open spaces in my complex. You are the person who told me in IM about the designated owner and in world payor function when I came to you to ask how a UK friend of mine could 1. own an open space w/o owning a full sim and 2. get around VAT. I've contacted conceirge dozens of times on the behalf of my open space renters to discuss performance and had countless Lindens on my sims.

So just stop. Stop right now.



On this day in 2008 almost 2.5 years after starting in the SL real estate game, I have completely lost all trust in LL. LL touts itself as an economy but you obviously have no economic skills or brains to bring some in. Linden Labs condescends to us land owners all the while not admitting that land is what keeps SL afloat at the current set up of it's economy. You can't do ANYTHING in SL w/o someone owning land. It's just a fact.

So be up front and tell us like it is. Linden Labs wants to be THE landlord in SL. Is it that hard to just admit it. Honestly you are embarrassing yourself with posts like this. You talk yourself in circles.

I've asked you Jack no less than 12 times to speak specifically to old tier full sim pricing. You will not answer. You have typed to my face, Barb I'm too busy to get back to you about things as simple as how many changes in designated owner would be done w/o a fee. It is quite insane all of this.


So Jack tell me. My class 5 50 usd/mo open spaces? Those wont see a tier increase will they? One argument to remove the grandfather on the os is that they are class 4. Mine aren't! So they will be staying 50usd then?

Also as many have said, going to give us a break on conversion since you basically FUBAR'd this? And again Jack, my 195/mo private sims.......Class 5's btw...when are you going to up those? What you don't seem to comprehend Jack is that thousands of us are doing this land thing with a BUSINESS PLAN. We know what we paid, we have an idea of break even and what when we buy or sell we try to make a fair market value on it. But what ties our hands is LL's obvious incompetent to understand your own f'n product.

What is Second Life Jack? Do you even want us here? I would regain an ounce of respect if you'd just come out and tell us that you don't as land brokers/sellers/developers/creators/agents whatever. But you won't say it. However, your actions speak volumes.


Barb

What PRECISELY did you expect, do you have any figure to supply to us, instead of that very vague formulation?

And linked to this… why do you provide Openspaces with EXACTLY THE SAME CAPABILITIES AS YOU DO FOR NORMAL REGIONS EXCEPTED FOR THE NUMBER OF PRIMS (3750). You are allowing 100 concurrent agents, no real script limit, etc just as you do for normal regions.

From your own word, Jack, you mean that Linden Lab "technically" allows us to get 20 or 30 or more residents on an Openspace but that WE SHOULD NOT, that we are "technically" allowed to run 500 or more scripts but that WE SHOULD NOT. Or did i miss something?

In addition to one regular island, I currently own two Openspaces each running with 8 agents limitation, each supporting about 1500 prims (less than half the count), none being for the purpose of rent or resale, and none being used for clubs or commercial malls. My plain purpose is to have fun with a couple of firends on these two regions. Still, while reading your above statement, Jack, i do NOT EVEN KNOW whether i’m within the range of your “expectations” or not.

Does this mean that allowing 15000 prims onto a CPU is acceptable for normal regions, while allowing 15000 (3750*4) prims onto a CPU is not acceptable for Openspaces? (ok, agree that the number of concurrent agents might be higher in some rare occasions onto 4 Openspaces than on a single normal region).

Indeed…. and I’m pretty sure most of us are definitely interested in spending (currently) $250 for buying the land and being billed a $75 monthly fee for gazing alone all day long at a nearly empty region.

Sad to say but by the end of November i’ll have to abandon one of my two Openspaces to Governor Linden.

In return you will get a $125 monthly fee from me instead of $150 right now.

I have not lost any renters, Chris, and I am under no obligation to discuss any of my personal financials with you or publicly here on the forums. How rude of you to call me out in such a way because you do not agree with my opinion. If you feel so inclined maybe you could make your bookkeeping public if you feel it is appropriate.

I have already posted my story about my OS in the main forums but I will post it again for all those like you who are angry with me for being right.

I purchased my very first OS at $425 when they became available singly. Shortly thereafter, LL lowered the price to $250 and told people who purchased them at full price that they could return them for a full refund. I also had a chat conversation with LL stating the same, so I submitted the ticket to have it sent back. LL took back the OS. A few weeks later my sim was gone and I still had not received my refund, so I contacted LL wand was told "we're very sorry, but there was a mistake in telling you that you could get a refund. You may not get a refund."

So my sim was gone, and I was out the money. Every other person I contacted through concierge just told me how sorry they were, that it must be very frustrating to me, but yes, it was in the TOS and there was nothing I could do.

Eventually I talked to Spike Linden, who gave my money back. I vowed at that time not to continue purchasing from LL and I have remained true to that promise.