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Upcoming Changes for Adult Content: Motivations and Goals

Xal Dryke
Registered User
Join date: 24 Jul 2007
Posts: 150
03-13-2009 12:11
From: Ghosty Kips
I just thought of that. Well ... me personally, if I ran an "adult" sim and saw a kid avie, they'd get the eject/ban, but that's just me.


I don't agree with child avi's in general, but I completely respect people that play as one, and their reasons for doing it, and I too would ban one in an instant from an adult establishment.

However, I think it brings up alot of very important questions according to what Maurice said....

Are child avatars who are being played by age-verified adults, acceptable in the newly created adult sims???

If so, then are the actions of these child avatars played by age-verified adults subject to penalty when they engage in consentual adult behavior???
Vye Graves
Registered User
Join date: 22 Jun 2007
Posts: 249
"Motivations and Goals"
03-13-2009 12:11
This thread is about "Motivations and Goals". The opinion I find everywhere is LL doesn't like their core users, do not see a future in what they created, and would be happy to make SL a new thing entirely. Every single person that I have expressed that opinion to, including creators who make their RL living in SL, agrees with me.

Banks? F-you, eat the loss. Casinos? F-you, eat the loss. Buy an openspace today? Two weeks later... f-you the price you agreed to is invalid. Don't like it? F-you, leave. Mafioso mentality, with a prudish twist. Las Vegas without casinos and sex. Not even crappy stage shows or Celine Dion. Empty pyramids. Ponder it.

Business and education better users than us? Well, let's see if they pay, as we have, for years. They come to SL, build a ghosttown sim, grab all the free press they can, and leave. Virtual board rooms? Please. They have all the videoconferencing they need. Why make barbies?

Time and effort is being spent on this hamfisted dust-up, while untold numbers of feature requests by people who actually PRODUCE income for LL have been ignored, for years. I build 90% of the time when I am in SL, almost two years, and the same annoyances are still right there waiting for me when I log in, WHEN I can log in. I haven't been able to for 3 hours now.

Well, right now LL, those users you don't like don't like you, either. You are basically telling us once every three or four months, "If you don't like it, f- off". Sadly, we are the ones ready, willing, and able to pay you consistently for your service. We love the world you seem to be ashamed of now.

Like the Internet as a whole, when people who love the endeavor for what it is rule, it booms. The talentless, officious, administrative leeches wrecking SL will just get paid big to wreck some other endeavor after "our" world is gone or sold to Yahoo. On behalf of users who love the world you created, I implore you to tell THEM to f-off.

Please. ponder whether these motivations and goals really have any promise.
Talarus Luan
Ancient Archaean Dragon
Join date: 18 Mar 2006
Posts: 4,831
03-13-2009 12:14
More like "Puritan Papa Porn-Sensitive sunglasses". :D
Leather Chaffe
Supergeekolicious!
Join date: 19 Jul 2007
Posts: 10
Thank you for the de-spin
03-13-2009 12:14
From: Les White
Since i don't own enough sims to be able to log on today (go bots!) i thought i might take the time to clarify the FAQ for this topic.

Why is Linden Lab choosing to do this?

Because we are not very creative and our bottom line is down from our continued miss-management and incompetence and so we hired a corporate consultant team to help us find ways to attract more cows to milk. Our consultants told us that americans are country of paranoid delusionals who consider mixing adults with kids to be a Bad Thing. It's much better to raise dullards and suck on some prozak on the way to the beer store.

Why now?

Because our landmass continues to shrink faster then we can introduce new continents. With actual unique users and paid users on a steep decline we felt we had to do something to enable us to continue to milk this set up for another year or two.

What are the short- and long-term plans?

The short-term plan for this project is to become more attractive to other McCompanies with corporate mindset in the hope that we might be able to dump this limp platform before it goes splat. We do not have any long-term plans at this moment other then to retire to real life islands with large amounts of money.

Is this something that Second Life users have asked for?

Absolutely not. In fact we didn't bother to ask anyone other then our hired consultants.

How does this move prevent minors from entering Second Life or accessing content?

It doesn't, but that is not important. Reality is meaningless in the face of corporate image. If we truly cared about age we would put the age check on the Front Door.

Will this initiative affect Teen Second Life?

Not for at least a month or two. At that time it will enable us to merge both grids and allow us to print propaganda explaining how the grid has grow in landmass and new users! Teen Second Life has always been a red herring.

Will this initiative prohibit certain kinds of content in Second Life?

We do not prohibit any content. In fact we make our living from the content that has already been created and we warmly welcome copy-bot at this time as we have critical mass and don't give a rats about the content creators who made this world. In fact we wont even police this policy change.

Second Life has always been an open environment; is Linden Lab deciding to abandon that principle?

As we have shown in the past with our actions such as the OS-Homestead bait and switch, we do not have any principles, therefor there is nothing to abandon. Pro quo.

Has Linden Lab consulted third parties as part of this initiative?

Yes, we've hired many consultants to help us find a way to improve our image. In fact we have more consults working on our image then we have skilled coders working on the actual platform.

Is Linden Lab trying to deemphasize(sic) the community so it can focus more on the enterprise market?

We are only worried about the image and not the actual communities that are here now. Our goal is to increase perceived shareholder value with a sanitation of the grids image without any concern for established communities since most of our numbers are made of non-paying accounts and kids.

If I have already been age verified, or have a payment method on file, will this carry over for the new initiative?

Yes, all 12 of our paying customers will be verified.

Will this bring any benefits for vendors in Second Life?

No. This will segregate users into regions and lower sales for all. Except on a corporate level. In other words, our sales.

How will this program help attract new users?

It wont, but it will make the platform more attractive to marketing divisions of McCorporations and raise our perceived shareholder value.

How will these changes affect XstreetSL?

XstreetSL already separates Adult content, so we expect no changes at this time.


My gawd that's brilliant! Five'll get you ten you nailed it exactly!
Sindy Tsure
Will script for shoes
Join date: 18 Sep 2006
Posts: 4,103
03-13-2009 12:14
From: Talarus Luan
Uhhhh....

LOL.. I was wondering if anybody else would notice what he seemed to be saying there..
Sonja Bolissima
Registered User
Join date: 10 Oct 2008
Posts: 5
03-13-2009 12:14
From: Vye Graves
This thread is about "Motivations and Goals". The opinion I find everywhere is LL doesn't like their core users, do not see a future in what they created, and would be happy to make SL a new thing entirely. Every single person that I have expressed that opinion to, including creators who make their RL living in SL, agrees with me.

Banks? F-you, eat the loss. Casinos? F-you, eat the loss. Buy an openspace today? Two weeks later... f-you the price you agreed to is invalid. Don't like it? F-you, leave. Mafioso mentality, with a prudish twist. Las Vegas without casinos and sex. Not even crappy stage shows or Celine Dion. Empty pyramids. Ponder it.

Business and education better users than us? Well, let's see if they pay, as we have, for years. They come to SL, build a ghosttown sim, grab all the free press they can, and leave. Virtual board rooms? Please. They have all the videoconferencing they need. Why make barbies?

Time and effort is being spent on this hamfisted dust-up, while untold numbers of feature requests by people who actually PRODUCE income for LL have been ignored, for years. I build 90% of the time when I am in SL, almost two years, and the same annoyances are still right there waiting for me when I log in, WHEN I can log in. I haven't been able to for 3 hours now.

Well, right now LL, those users you don't like don't like you, either. You are basically telling us once every three or four months, "If you don't like it, f- off". Sadly, we are the ones ready, willing, and able to pay you consistently for your service. We love the world you seem to be ashamed of now.

Like the Internet as a whole, when people who love the endeavor for what it is rule, it booms. The talentless, officious, administrative leeches wrecking SL will just get paid big to wreck some other endeavor after "our" world is gone or sold to Yahoo. On behalf of users who love the world you created, I implore you to tell THEM to f-off.

Please. ponder whether these motivations and goals really have any promise.


Well said :) couldn't agree more
Kisa Umia
Registered User
Join date: 27 Jan 2009
Posts: 1
Which Content is Largest?
03-13-2009 12:15
I am relatively new to SL, so I don't know for sure, the statistics of the populations.

Such populations as Mature Content stores, residences and Regions; as compared to PG Content stores, residences, and Regions.

I shall quote a member:

"And frankly you'd save us all huge amounts of heartburn and butthurt if you created an All-Ages Continent instead of an Adult Reservation."

If after reviewing the statistics; if the report reveals that there is a considerable higher population of overall Mature Content vs. a lower PG Content.

I agree, it seems logical to move PG Content to a non-Mature influenced zone.

Another concept I am surprised that LL does not do, is to have servers.

= Mature server (SL Time zone)
= PG server (SL Time zone)

= European Mature server
= European PG server

= Even paid, Member servers.

Imagine how having separate servers would dramatically lower any lag.

The Mature server would have all the Mature regions remain where they are, no moving, no distress, no concerns for compensation.

The PG server would remain the same for it's Region's.

Honestly though. In real life we have a blend of Mature Content and PG Content, aka Porno Shops, Leather Bondage Shops, and PG Content, parks, museums, McDonalds (TM).

One reason I came to Second Life, was that I could have this second fantasy life; be I Vampire, Furry, Angel or Demoness, or whatever floated my boat. I soon discovered the creative power and tools provided by LL, tutorials and links; which further secured my desire to stay with SL. But I found that the variety of one Region to the next, the excitement of "exploring" was yet another aspect of Second Life I appreciated; I felt that was one of the key elements of SL, to "explore". With the way I understand it. I won't be exploring any more, I will be tagged or Regions will be tagged. I'll always be switching what I wear or wonder if what I am wearing will boot me from a Region because of it's content. Not that I am this nudist skipping through the park, <chuckles>

With the new development, I do not foresee any more "exploring"-

Earlier one member mentioned something, which is implemented in IMVU (Instant Message Virtual Universe); they use a credit card to verify age (with attached one time $19 fee- be interesting to see if LL does this too), this flags the member with AP (Adult Pass), which allows that member to buy Mature content and open Mature 3D chat rooms. When an AP member enters a PG room, if they are wearing Mature content, the Mature content is not seen; and Mature content said is scrambled. This alternative route might be a gentler direction to achieve the same desired results.

I would like to say, all in all, in spite of upcoming changes, I am planning on staying with Second Life. And I would like to thank LL for the most part in providing this Virtual World to experience, and it is only to evolve and improve over time.

-Kisa Umia
Anny Helsinki
Registered User
Join date: 23 May 2008
Posts: 50
03-13-2009 12:17
applauds Ivy
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Fenix Eldritch
Mostly harmless
Join date: 30 Jan 2005
Posts: 201
03-13-2009 12:21
A lot of posters here are fairly old with almost no post counts... People who just never used the forums? Or Alts coming out of the woodwork? :D

I will admit there is probably a lot I am still uninformed about as far as this issue goes. So I will try my best not to speak out of passion and reflex emotion. I am unsure about this whole censorship issue. Going on what I currently know/understand, I am not in favor of it on principle.

These posts nicely sum up my current standings.

From: Gaynor Gritzi
I posted this on the New World Notes blog, but it's worth posting here as well........


Interestingly, Stephen Fry (noted egghead and entertainer) had this to say the other day - not about Second Life, but about the internet in general, though it's equally applicable......

"This is an early thing I said about the internet at the time things like AOL were still huge. I said it's Milton Keynes, that's the problem with it. It's got all these nice, safe cycle paths and child-friendly parks and all the rest of it.

But the internet is a city and, like any great city, it has monumental libraries and theatres and museums and places in which you can learn and pick up information and there are facilities for you that are astounding - specialised museums, not just general ones.


As important as the more traditional cultural institutions?
But there are also slums and there are red light districts and there are really sleazy areas where you wouldn't want your children wandering alone.

And you say, "But how do I know which shops are selling good gear in the city and how do I know which are bad? How do I know which streets are safe and how do I know which aren't?" Well you find out.

What you don't need is a huge authority or a series of identity cards and police escorts to take you round the city because you can't be trusted to do it yourself or for your children to do it.

And I think people must understand that about the internet - it is a new city, it's a virtual city and there will be parts of it of course that they dislike, but you don't pull down London because it's got a red light district. "

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/technology/7926509.stm

From: Deltango Vale
It bears repeating that Second Life is VIRTUAL, VOLUNTARY and ADULT. There is a huge difference between SL and RL. Seeking to apply RL standards to a virtual world is silly.

VIRTUAL: There is no safer place on Earth than the privacy of your RL home. In SL you can:

- live without fear of physical injury
- retain complete RL personal privacy
- mute an avatar or an object
- teleport to a different location
- fly to a different location
- build house in the sky
- disable particle rendering
- log out

VOLUNTARY: One must sign up for an account.

ADULT: No kids allowed.

By definition, everyone in SL is an adult. That means one has passed through puberty, has learned to relate to people and become responsible for one's decisions - including the decision to be in a virtual world with other adults. As an adult, one recognizes and accepts that people have different styles and tastes and that rudeness or harassment should not be confused with sexuality. Welcome to adulthood, folks.


It really seems pointless to try and censor material in an adult world... and a little insulting at the same time. On one hand, I can see how many people get emotional about seeing something that offends them. I can see how that emotional knee-jerk response of outrage can lead to complaints sent to LL... but that doesn't make them completely right. We all have our own views and opinions and being an adult means we learn how to deal with what upsets us. Hell, being in a diverse global community means we all need to have a tougher skin.

And given the nature of this virtual world, it is so much easier to get out of and away from upsetting situations.


On the other hand, I can see the desire to have a more "friendly" environment - especially for businesses, educators and of course, the teen grid residents.

If I may be so bold, here is a suggestion:

1) Re-instigate some actual form of age verification upon account creation. That will greatly help keep adults off the teen grid and teens off the main grid.

2) Leave the main grid alone.

3) Leave the teen grid alone. With it more difficult for underage people (who can't deal with offensive material) to access the main grid, the teen grid will begin to flourish.

4) Create a third "grid" as a mid point bridge between the teen and main grids. Both adults and teens would be able to access this third grid, but not the other's. Businesses and educators wishing to appeal to both crowds could setup shop in this third grid which would be policed to ensure a friendlier environment for all ages. Residents who feel the main grid is "too offensive" could be welcome to live in the middle ground. And teen gridders wishing to collaborate with main gridders could do so here.

I sincerely believe it would be more effective (and more respectful) to do something like this rather than what is currently being proposed.

It's not that we're all sex/violence crazed people, it's nothing like that. I feel it's more about the whole principle of the matter. We feel we're being treated like children who can't decide for ourselves what's offensive or not. And hey, for some people, they can't handle some material. In that case, a better environment might be what they want/need. Hence the suggestion of a new grid.

I've tried to choose my words as carefully as possible... but I know the instant I hit the submit button, I'll find something I wish I had said differently... oh well, here goes...
Anny Helsinki
Registered User
Join date: 23 May 2008
Posts: 50
03-13-2009 12:28
Fenix. we dont need a third grid, we need democracy!
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Ghosty Kips
Elora's Llama
Join date: 2 May 2008
Posts: 2,386
03-13-2009 12:28
From: Vye Graves
Please. ponder whether these motivations and goals really have any promise.


Awesomeness.

I am an artist. I'd never shown my work to outsiders before SL, and only after a couple of other artists saw my work and encouraged me to do so. Now I actually pay my tier with the lindens I make from the little gizmos I build and my art.

But, you know, artists don't pay the big money, corporations do. As many times as I've read now that some chick sunbathing in her garden isn't going to be relegated to a distant continent, personally it affects me very little. My art is quite PG.

But, I want the freedom to put a prim penis on my head at a party without the thought police showing up (assuming I'm in a Mature sim, of course). Or, put a penis in a painting without getting carted to SL jail because a kid avie looked at it.

I do not want teens in my SL. Period. I do not want to have to shelter my expressiveness because a 16 year old might be looking that I don't know about.

But, I also do not want to have anyone tell me I have to uproot my business to another sim because I put a winky in a picture.
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Maelstrom Janus
Ban Ban Lines !!!
Join date: 4 Jul 2007
Posts: 1,220
03-13-2009 12:28
Well I was about to buy some land today... but SL was non functional so while trying to find a status page amid that horrible mess that is now the blogs page I came across this little gem...

In my humble opinion all this nonsense would be laid to rest if Lindens simply cancelled 'free accounts' and made everyone a paid cstomer..i.e paid using a credit card or pay pal which you generally have to be 18 or over... it might also cancel out all that nonsense of masses of inanimate alts clogging up regions to.

Of course Lindens never take the straight forward way of doing anything. In my opinion this is just another one of those ridiculous smokescreens for all those issues which REALLY matter like improved and sustained performance and tier charges.

In the meantime I currently live in a mature region which as far as I was concerned meant I could have cybersex - which i'm not ashamed to say I enjoy - anywhere on my property... am I now led to believe that my land could be rerated and outdoor virtual sex made 'illegal'...

To me once again I see this as another 'poke in the eye' for those who pay premiums, tiers etc. and basically keep SL running...

In the meantime if you could let me know if my land could potentially be rerated so I cant enjoy a virtual sex life (one of the main reasons for my originally joining sl- and forking out my money) Let me know because if this is the case I wont bother buying...oh and -by the way that means you wont be getting as high a tier charge from me as you would have guys - Im sure thats of little concern when it comes to protecting freeloading brats wh shouldnt be here in the first place eh...
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Bluephoeenix Paine
Registered User
Join date: 2 Jun 2007
Posts: 4
03-13-2009 12:28
From: Rini Copperfield
.

Unfortunately, no matter how much one tries there's no way kids are going to be kept from adult material on -any- game. Many parents in fact, don't monitor their kid's internet usage, like many parents don't monitor what they watch on TV, or listen to on the radio, or play on their video game systems. It's unfair to punish the rest of the community because a handful of parents aren't doing their jobs.



I agree with you on that. I monitor my teen age daughter's movements all the time. well because i care! I am not going to put my responibilty into other hands. I say this to those slacker parents. Be a parent or don't be one. That means don't have the kids!! you don't want the job, don't take it!!!
Arishia Nishi
Registered User
Join date: 6 Feb 2007
Posts: 13
Non-Adult Content areas make more sense.
03-13-2009 12:28
I think it makes more sense to make a non-adult classification. Let the people that want to restrict content set up their own areas. That leaves the default as open and creative and unrestricted. It just makes NO sense to me to make the default classification a restricted one. That says that the cultural norm is the restricted one. I think the norm should be unrestricted, and if people want to restrict what they experience, they can create sub-sets. Please think about this. The idea of second life has appealed to me BECAUSE it is an open creative enviornment. Also, what a fight you are setting up defining the normal or default grid.

Why repeat culture wars in second life? Don't we have enough of that in the real world?
Liza Levenque
Registered User
Join date: 31 Aug 2008
Posts: 1
Just like in the real world...
03-13-2009 12:29
Such a wonderful idea, let's make Second Life just like the real world: where everyone just clicks a button, and they never have to see the things of which they are embarrassed or which they fear. Nudity, violence, obscenity, poor manners, unbrushed hair, and nose boogers, all gone with a single click. (Note: I think it should definitely be a RIGHT click.)

And, thankfully, it will only be the "Adult" areas. Those vile netizens. Yes, let's make SL "separate but unequal." It was good enough for women and blacks for a hundred years in America (though truthfully still true), and it is still good enough for the gay and lesbian community (among many other groups). But, wait! That's it! Throw all those groups into "Adult". Throw them all in! We don't want women, blacks, gays and lesbians mixing in with our pure and high ideals. And, call it the Third Reich Life. SEIG HEIL! SH! SH!

I love this idea. (Oh, and yes, I am one of those vile persons.)
Anny Helsinki
Registered User
Join date: 23 May 2008
Posts: 50
03-13-2009 12:36
From: Maelstrom Janus

In my humble opinion all this nonsense would be laid to rest if Lindens simply cancelled 'free accounts' and made everyone a paid cstomer..i.e paid using a credit card or pay pal which you generally have to be 18 or over... it might also cancel out all that nonsense of masses of inanimate alts clogging up regions to.
.

first, u can buy CC on a petrol station, so no one asks for ur age, paypal i will not use , because it isnt secure.
LL will not accept my age-verification, because i am from europe, and the data the ask are prohibited to offer,

so let the ten grid where it is, the main grid too, who wont see naked legs on mature sims can leave the place

atm, i would love , LL would have some working people doing their job!
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Anny Helsinki
Registered User
Join date: 23 May 2008
Posts: 50
03-13-2009 12:37
From: Arishia Nishi
I think it makes more sense to make a non-adult classification. Let the people that want to restrict content set up their own areas. That leaves the default as open and creative and unrestricted. It just makes NO sense to me to make the default classification a restricted one. That says that the cultural norm is the restricted one. I think the norm should be unrestricted, and if people want to restrict what they experience, they can create sub-sets. Please think about this. The idea of second life has appealed to me BECAUSE it is an open creative enviornment. Also, what a fight you are setting up defining the normal or default grid.

Why repeat culture wars in second life? Don't we have enough of that in the real world?



that is already been given, its called PG -sim
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Pygar Standish
Registered User
Join date: 15 Aug 2006
Posts: 25
03-13-2009 12:40
"A lot of posters here are fairly old with almost no post counts... People who just never used the forums? Or Alts coming out of the woodwork? "

People who can't log in because the grid has been closed for at least 3 hours this morning. (like myself)
Anny Helsinki
Registered User
Join date: 23 May 2008
Posts: 50
03-13-2009 12:40
From: Liza Levenque
And, call it the Third Reich Life. SEIG HEIL! SH! SH!

I love this idea. (Oh, and yes, I am one of those vile persons.)



that was mean :)) dont call puritates as hitler-fans, they dont know hitler in usa, other they wont support the websites support his fans
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Fenix Eldritch
Mostly harmless
Join date: 30 Jan 2005
Posts: 201
03-13-2009 12:41
From: Anny Helsinki
Fenix. we dont need a third grid, we need democracy!


The best case scenario, yes, I agree!
Bluephoeenix Paine
Registered User
Join date: 2 Jun 2007
Posts: 4
03-13-2009 12:41
From: Robert703 Trafalgar
Hi,

What I would like to see are these 3 labels attached to each sim where content of a sexual nature is carried, especially when looking at the in world map. There are areas I would like to miss on my random wanderings. So these labels would help.

AS = Straight content(inc fetish)
AG = Gay
AT = Transvestite etc type content.

Thank you.

Let me know what you think.

Regards.


Are we a bit intolerant?
beatrix Muircastle
Registered User
Join date: 19 Jun 2008
Posts: 18
03-13-2009 12:44
From: Ghosty Kips
Grid abuses and TOS infractions aside, of course ...

Why would you go to a mature sim if you don't want to see what's there? You wouldn't, right?

Doesn't sound like you need a filter to me.

*sighs* I've said it 5 million times already. mature doesn't only mean sex. it could be mature just so you can rp with weapons, drink, and swear. I go to mature places to shop, rp, and shoot stuff. all I want is a warning so I don't accidentally walk into a sexual situation and get reported by some zealot that thinks I'm there for sex. I'm a child av so I'm not into that. I really want to not bother anyone.


maybe there is a way we can do this simply without up heaving everyone and screwing people over. like I dunno a filter on accounts of people who ask for it so we can not tp into a store/sim that allows sex and sexual items? moving everyone doesn't make sense, there is still the search and still lms to worry about. its seems like a lot a trouble for nothing.
Pygar Standish
Registered User
Join date: 15 Aug 2006
Posts: 25
03-13-2009 12:45
"You're devoting all this time and resources to a problem that reflects 4% of content?"

Yes, the Lindens are either totally ignorant of logic, or just simply do things to make people angry like I said in my previous post.
Bluephoeenix Paine
Registered User
Join date: 2 Jun 2007
Posts: 4
03-13-2009 12:49
My little idea on this mess. there are some whiny babies out there who can handle the adult grid. Um...it's an adult grid! There will be sex, drugs, war, and so on. Those who don't wish to go into the Mature sims should not go in. Period. There are plenty of PG sims they can go into and enjoy. They can enjoy SL like many others do, but they chose to go into these sims and let their jaws drop to the ground and go tattle to Linden Labs. Change this for me because i don't know how to use the tp system!!! those big bad Avatars who are (insert what ever) are hurting my feelings, are making me feel uneasy, etc. I say this to you. Grow up. Or get out. You don't need a baby sitter. I feel Linden Labs should leave the grid how it is. Period. To bad so sad for those who can't handle what is going on in the adult grid. If SL is to much for you I suggest you log out, cancel your account and find another game to play.
Maelstrom Janus
Ban Ban Lines !!!
Join date: 4 Jul 2007
Posts: 1,220
03-13-2009 12:51
From: Anny Helsinki
first, u can buy CC on a petrol station, so no one asks for ur age, paypal i will not use , because it isnt secure.
LL will not accept my age-verification, because i am from europe, and the data the ask are prohibited to offer,

so let the ten grid where it is, the main grid too, who wont see naked legs on mature sims can leave the place

atm, i would love , LL would have some working people doing their job!


well Lindens should block applications from those countries where credit cards are available to those under 18...or perhaps refuse cards from those companies which allow under 18s to buy cards...

vat was applied to all europeans is it too hard to research those companies who permit under 18s a credit card ??
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