Feedback on the Mainland

I was just saying that any extra people that LL puts towards this effort are probably going to want to be paid.

If you want the mainland to be better managed, they need to hire people to manage it. That's all I was saying.

edit: I wasn't really responding to your situation, Michi - just took your question on if private island money was greener than mainland money out of context to point out that getting LL to do more work isn't free. I didn't make that clear above - my bad. Zoned mainland is, today, a tiny minority.

Its just speculation..Linden really has some brains up there and as most of us know Second Life has been mostly built from the great work of voluneerism. I just gotta say one way or the other its gonna happen. If SL is still around in 10-15 years people will look back and say, "How did that happen?" ...hehehe

Ok.. Understood Sindy. To that I'd say that its not exactly a 1:1 relationship. One -could say- that its those who *cause trouble* on the mainland that put forth the neccessity of more staff for this project.

On another note, the fact that the disparity was allowed to happen in the first place could be the "cost center" to it.

Trust me, if LL had responded to MANY early resident suggestions about the mainland back in the day, you could be assured of the following:

1) Such a monumental (and expensive) cleanup effort would have never have had to happen, and

2) Price disparity likely would have never occurred.

I really think this doesn't have to cost any more to enforce than does the current mess. Right now, the G-Team is operating with a set of truly bizarre constraints that lead to the absurdities referenced earlier in this thread, where notorious adfarmers file successful griefing ARs as retribution against neighbors who dare to obscure their parcels, but obvious ad/extortion schemes in blatant violation of the intent of existing policy go unaddressed despite repeated ARs. That all burns time. Confiscate all the fake advertising and extortion plots for once and for all, and suddenly there's plenty of time to do other stuff.

Ok, I didn't get through reading everything as I got started on this thread a day late so maybe this has been said before.

- A definition of what is an Ad needs to be established as well as what is considered appropriate use.

Right now, looking off of the deck of my castle over my gardens, I can see a good number of so called ads that don't really say anything but just show a picture of a scantily clad woman or two. Then there's the one that's off to my south that's just some sort of particle effect streaming up into the sky which has no apparent use at all other than to be an eyesore. I tend to ignore the ads, but when I'm trying to do a photoshoot in my gardens, they're a royal pain to block out.

Unfortunately, there's too many legitimate uses for small plots, tall objects and/or both so the real root of a definition should be the content not the plot or the object. Admittedly there'll be other ways to build eyesores to drive the neighbors wild, but that can be easier to determine as harrassment.

- A price cap on smaller plots can help. Right now, on the other side of my neighbor, there's a smallish plot (think it's 64 sq. meters without checking) that's set for just under L$5k that's got advertising on it. Drives my neighbor crazy looking out of her house at it, but she's already at her tier so she can't just buy it even if she has the money for it.

- Existing Governor Linden areas should be addressed. For instance, there's an apparent strip of land that is owned by the Gov for what could've been a road. Thanks to that set aside bit of land, it allowed the creation of all of these small ad plots. No one uses the road since it never got developed in the sim I'm in nor any of the neighboring sims though that hasn't stopped the ad folks from buying and advertising. Nowhere else in any of the neighboring sims are there ads that I've seen except right along that strip of land.

- Policy is good as long as it's firmly grounded and has a definite guidelines set. Leaving too much up to interpretation can cause all sorts of unintended results.

That's my two bits. With luck on these upcoming changes, the visual eyesores will be lessened so that I can enjoy the view of my gardens and castle as I had intended when I built them.

Grei

Thank you Zaphiry. This is important. Many people like Zaphiry may not be as outspoken as the rest of us here although they feel threatened by the potential of sweeping changes. The need to reassure them is of much greater importance than the loudness of their voice.

Jack,

I'm not sure if I'm more impressed with the decision to try and make the mainland a better environment, or your willingness to be active in the forums with so many negative nancy's running about. Kudos for any action that makes SL a better experience.

I'm not reading every post thus far, there are just too many. If this has been mentioned, I apologize for duplicating a thought.

You mentioned, as part of your efforts, to making views and such less obstructed. While some builds simply cannot be made invisible, there are thousands of walls that have been constructed simply to harrass a neighbor in efforts to bully them into selling, etc.

I would like to see a real effort to make these walls invisible from the harrassee's side. If someone doesn't want to see my build, I have no problem with that. And I would like to see a real effort in enforcing an 'invisibility rule' that says that putting up giant ugly walls that are put there simply to create hostility should be required to be invisible on the side of the harrassee, on a case by case basis I suppose.

Make your side any texture you want, but make my side invisible. Especially if it obstructs a lovely view. It's just so unfair to ignore the pleas of tier-paying members who bought land in good faith, and are now basically being harrassed and extorted by their neighbors.

Thank you for ANY efforts to clean up the mainland.

/me sends Michi a cookie.


You could well be right - I'm all for LL getting more done with the resources they already have!! - but I still don't think they can get it done by just making the rules cleaner.

I'd love for you to come back in 6 months and say "I told ya so!" (edit: and be saying it because you were right)

Jack how does LL plan on making sure the covenant's for the zoned area's are enforced? I own a residential community on an estate; and I take pride in my (zoned/planned) community. However 1 island can and sometimes is a full time job. Is LL planning on hiring more employees to ensure this plan is not just something that looks good on paper?

*Trin

Have you always spoken fluent ------inappropriate language removed by Katt Linden -----or is this a learned language?

They are already removed when they encroach, are excessively huge, or are suspected to cause a lag problem. Is there some reason you need them eradicated entirely?

1 have a set max price on a group of plots/sim (say X lindens per meter^2)

2 have some of the sims set to CHILD AVS ONLY no ads

3 get better with searches and clean the word salad from some of the descriptions
also have the locations in a search converted to actual links
and btw have a search return less than an eighth of a sim (this would remove the need for
ad farms)

4 in places that are privately owned have a way to retexture roads or have a way to mark a location as "NO ROADS"

5 if you need to move somebodies plot then PAY to have the move done (include free classifieds for say a month)

There's this thing coming along that's going to keep prices down: Competition.

They won't increase tier.

Mainly because I have a friend who always complains to me about her neighbors megaprim-only build being so incredibly ugly. It actually is pretty hideous but it's all within the bounds of their land.

Now I can tell her I asked and that Jack laughed at me and that she should drop it.

Jack Dear,

Please listen to these residents and their posts! Clearly they say one simple thing - they do not like "add farmers" and they want them gone.

At this point, the request I made to you, to initiate a login poll of "Do you like add farmers or not" is not even necessary, the message should be clear by now - make them gone!

Of course there are many other issues in the Mainland Land Management department, but the most important issue is that nobody likes these static ugly eyesores placed by scammers that do not even spend any time near their blight while we, the real residents that provide the beautiful content and appearance of SL as a whole tolerate this ugliness in hopes that one day, LL will assist in their experiment to make it better!

Why should we tolerate our day-to-day Second Lives living with add farm tactics just outside our windows? Why should we abandon Mainland and give our money to an Estate Manager to have a restricted life when we would rather live where we have been from the beginning?

My first parcel I bought was in Mocis, on the old Atoll Continent. After a time, I had more than 1/2 of that sim. But, it was because of one single 16sqm parcel owned by a member of the "Guild" that I left that and made a PRIVATE purchase of 1/2 a sim in Lunata, which to this day remains free of add farmers. I sold that land in Mocis, only to find that the protected land along the road was taken up by add farmers. Ashamed, I paid big money to remove those add farms, and again, I sold the land, via private sale to another major land owner of the sim.

This should not be happening! I should not have to pay 100 times the going rate for a sqm of land to some extortionists to make the surrounding sim representable to the newbies that come along for a visit!

Do not bend over and take it up the ass for these extortionists! Just forbid their practices! Their tactics do not benefit anyone but themselves and their methods only ruin it for every one else.

With much love and respect,

Dtyska

the changes you are hinting at are absolutely necessary. there are so many broken dreams on the mainland, so much work and expense poured into it in vain.

myself i am happy to have a freefloating sim in Otherland. i left the mainland long ago just because of the ugly and disappointing things you mention.

i wouldnt dream of returning.

Whaa...?

I and my partners own well over a sim on the mainland. You have quite rightly pointed out the most important matter to be fixed, *Advertising* specificly the ad farms.
There are other issues also, one we have found especially troublesome is long term unused plots. These parcels are both group and individually owned, have no activity and sometimes frustratingly ugly/incomplete builds. While not technically abandoned (someone or some group is paying premium membership and /or tier) it is impossible to communicate with the owners even to make a very generous offer to buy the land. We need Linden help in communicating with these people, they should be relieved to have the unused land off their hands and if they are not active in Second Life, their accounts reduced to Basic. I know this is not in Linden Lab's economic favor, but it will make for a more coheasive mainland in the long run. Lindens feel free to contact me for specific examples!

New mainland comes in grey and green or green and grey.

OK, I read them all *whew!* So I'm quoting some ideas I like, including some ideas I've modified, and remarking on one I don't like.

Ideas I LIKE

IBME Swindlehurst #33
1. On any change of ownership, prevailing zoning/covenants for the immediate area are implemented.

Soraya Till #47
A good first step would be to ban all those flying "For Sale" signs.

Melodie Darwin #54
No access lines should not be allowed on land that is for sale. Period.

MarkByron Falta #55
4) Allow members to donate a certain percentage of each region to Governor Linden for use as public park land.

My Modifications

1. No temporary prims on plots under 64sm. They just use up resources by tricking the system.
2. Have zones that are "no ban lines" areas.
3. Make like it's the *gasp* real word and limit the type and size of advertisements. Most towns and cities do it. For example, say there can't be billboards bigger than 5x5x1m, no poles bigger than 10x2x2m, and no spinning signs bigger than 2x1x1m unless you own the land for at least 50 meters in every direction.
4. Make more themed, planned areas (like Bay City) but leave some areas without zoning for people who want more freedom. Bay City is very easy to move through because it has lots of Linden Land and all the roads attract businesses (who don't WANT to put up ban lines).

An Idea I DON'T like

Karl Herber #133
4) An object on any parcel must not be higher than the length of that parcel's shortest side.

Reasoning: This is unfair to people on rectangular or irregular lots & would destroy parts of Bay City

Thanks to everyone who takes the time to read this. Thanks to Linden Lab for this discussion and for not limiting us to 150 responses.

I agree with Talurus. #44

Go after the people who are the root of the problem.

No matter what you do, their ugly natures will find a way to bring discord to SL.

It won't be enough to Zone, etc unless you have some sort of standard of how residents treat the SL experience. The Ad extortionists are just trolls. Focus on bouncing them and a major problem is solved quickly.

One of the big benefits to me of mainland is the ability to simply go exploring. Whether it is by flying, or using a vehicle on existing roads, a boat on the water, or a flying vehicle, just being able to freely move about and explore and not run into a wall after 256 meters really is an attraction. There are some fairly serious deterants to this though. When traveling the rivers for example, the edges of the linden protected water are not visible as a road is, and crossing the corner of a parcel near its prim limit gets you bounced off into limbo and your vehicle returned, hopefully, ( often it ends up as litter someplace, though all I create have the Cubey Terra locator nag in them). The ideas expressed below are aimed at making that experience better.

So:

How about objects with seated avatars being treated the same way as temp. This would allow vehicles to pass across parcels that have less than 32 prim available, and keep them from getting bounced and their vehicle returned. Since the vehicle is transient and in the region already, it would have no impact overall, unlike temp rezzers etc.

Or, maybe when parcels are set to allow group only, or nobody for that matter other than the owner, make a five or ten second delay in the effect. While I know it would open a slight window for griefing, it would greatly enhance the ability of residents to fly or operate vehicles over the mainland. This delay WOULD NOT apply to residents specifically banned from the parcel.

And lastly, while I know this one will raise hackles - remove the ability to block the passage of objects. Again, while this might open up a slight window for griefing, it would have a great benefit to vehicle use, and no rez and auto return would limit the effect to 1 minute.

Just some dreams... not expectations

DRD

A max price per sqm should be set at X times the average price of whatever.

Hi Jack,

Thanks for your thoughtful post about this increasing problem. My first thought is that like, gambling and age-play, real-estate extortion has legal ramifications in the real world. As SL has used the real estate model it is becoming clear that you stand to face several lawsuits, some of them class-action, based on real world law.

Personally, I was thrilled when you threw out the gambling and thwarted any chance of pedophile rings finding an easy home in SL with age-verification. Everyone survived and SL continues to grow. I hope you make the same wise decision here.

When I was in my first second life I ran into a group of these folks. I was a newbie, they knew it and they managed to get a few hundred dollars out of me just to make them go away. That was money from the real world transferred into SL to stop harassment and threats. If it walks like a duck...



I agree whole-heartedly with Raymond's solution. Although this may not be feasible or adequate for this situation it would bring more peace to the mainland. I have often said that if people were forced to look at their own ban lines they would find better solutions.

It would be really nice if you could institute a vote for some of these issues where feasible.

Good Luck Jack - You have a lot of support from the thousands of good people who want to see SL succeed.