Feedback on the Mainland

Jack

Just the fact that LL is serioulsy looking at the mainland gives me hope.

I have blogged and JIRA'd about ad parcels for some time now. I really do think there is a way to allow smaller parcels but not as stand alone. Yes there are legitimate uses for them, or at least say down to 64 or 32 m2 anyway. Rez or media areas come to mind. However, by requiring the owner of such a parcel to own the surrounding land on at least two sides, and allowing only one such subdivide per 512m2 parcel, it would allow the smaller parcels but would pretty much put the death shroud on ad farms.

Zoneing within limits is a great idea. It might be difficult to impliment in the older mixed areas, but if you grandfather in the current owners and make the new zoning applicable on transfer, that might also mitigate any damage zoning might have for current owners, yet allow a transition over time to a new standard for any area.

Some of the biggest blights outside of ad farms are LL owned parcels. Either abandoned or otherwise, these should all be immediately set to autoreturn just like the roads and waterways. As to the many 16m2 parcels now under Maintainence, I would like to suggest that be offered to the neighboring land owners to be incorporated into larger existing parcels. I have several like that adjoining my holdings in Gorynych and I have offered several times to incorporate them if allowed. That sim has a serious ad farm problem now with many of the little parcels being offered at 3000 and up for 16m2. However, since there are no longer nasty signs on them, they do not qualify for TOS violations.

I too find it sad, that while ad farmers blight the land, they do seem to get a very fast responce from LL. I had a wall that intruded onto an ad parcel by maybe .2 meters. It was returned to me and I had to IM the Linden who returned it to find out why that had happened. That is just wrong!!

So Jack, I am sincerely pleased LL is going to take a look at this. If I can be of any help at all, please do not hesitate to let me know. I am more than willing to participate in anything that will help clean up the mainland.

DRD

You can't hope to fix the mainland without recognizing one thing. Land prices have to rise and tier has to fall.

At the moment land is treated as a disposable commodity .. it is cheap to buy, expensive to maintain.

There is no incentive to look after, cherish, develop, beautify.

Much of the tacky commercialism .. yes ad farms too ... stem from the fact that each qm. of land has to earn a relatively ridiculous rate of return just to cover tier. Land is ruthlessly exploited and then discarded when it is of no use.

Turn that equation around. Make it in the land owner's interest to look after and develop their land. Until you do this will go nowhere.

LL must recognize its own responsibility for this. Tier is a tax after all. A land tax. Stop squeezing land and things might just improve all on their own. And that sort of economic solution is going to be far more effective than any micro-management, command economy, Three Year Stalinist Plan is ever going to be.

Perhaps, though, there are two things to recognize. The other is that this time LL must share the pain. Every initiative so far has been at the cost of, the expense of or the pain of the users. I will believe in this initiative when I see LL taking a hit in time or money.

I made this a little while ago and it shows the double standards of SL biggest merchant banker.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sn7cKVFXUkw&feature=user


Once again I'll ask...........

Can we have existing TOS/ Community standards applied regarding mature content and repetitive transmission of unwanted advertising? Do we need to form a network of people to go round ARing assholes? I have better things to do with my time but if it gets rid of some of this junk then so be it.

I haven't read every post in this thread by any means (and I admire anyone who has!), but just to throw in my own position:

I own 2560m2 on the mainland, and I also rent and share land on some private estates. On my mainland area I've made a nice public park, with statuary and natural areas and semi-ruined walls and that picture of dogs playing poker, and I'm very fond of it. On the land around it there have been at various times advertising signs, big ugly buildings, for-sale signs, lots surrounded by ban-lines, a "police station", small stores, and various other things.

I love watching the random stuff go by around my park, and I'd be sad if the place was to be made Noncommercial (or entirely commercial), or anything else uniform by Linden zoning. On the other hand I appreciate the predictability and control of the places that I use out in more controlled private estates, and I think it will probably be a good thing if *some* mainland is also zoned; just as long as a healthy amount of it is still open to anything and everything (within TOS), because imho that's where alot of the energy happens; in friction between things that just come together by accident...

Thanks, Jack and Linden Lab for this new, much needed direction. I'm a relative newcomer to owning land, yet I've been very frustrated about the advertising issue and the lack of action on several AR's I've filed. I even tiered down so I could try out renting land on a private estate, but I still think the Mainland can be a great place to be, as well. I think it's excellent that LL is finally gearing up to take action to improve the Mainland, and I'll be very interested in seeing how this plays out. Definitely some thorny issues here, so cudos for tackling them! Interesting times ahead, I'm sure.

Several folks seem to think that advertising is needed everywhere in SL so business can flurish. BS! While it is fair to allow businesses to advertise, it is also permissible and fair to allow that advertising to be controlled. Mature Adverts in PG sims should not be allowed for example. And the situation with the ad parcels is completely out of control.

I for one, think all the ad poles and signs are totally useless. I know that for myself and most of my friends, (I have not polled them all), we boycott anyone who advertises on any ad parcel plot if it is know that they do that. I also inform the advertiser of this. This partains to SL and RL companies that use these plots.

The tiny seperate parcels that allow the ad farm type of advertising to exit have to be eliminated. Whle there are many reasons to have a small seperate parcel in the middle of your own land, or on a border of your own land, there is simply no reason why anyone should be allowed to have a stand alone 16 or 32 m parcel in the middle of my land, or adjacent to it. Owning four 16m2 parcels in a diaginal line along a linden road or waterway, has only one purpose, to put signs on them, and that is the issue.

No advertising by sign or chat bot in any residential area. No more ad plots, period!

DRD

Actually, in my case, *I* owned land in the sim first. However, I don't believe that does, or should have a whole lot of bearing on the argument, which is why I didn't bother making it myself.



I have no idea what your intent is, nor what you "really do". I can only go by what you say, and when you say, in several places, no less, "All land trades are suspended until further notice.", I take that to mean that there are NO exceptions.

I am aware of the imperfection of communications and dealings in SL; I never spoke to that in my responses to you, and none of what I said was meant to be accusatory. Simply that, if you say/do X, then, without more information, someone else will likely do/say Y as a response.

I have noticed that to be a significant issue dealing with you and Dave here in the forums, at least. I think you all tend to not communicate about your situation very well, and cause some of the ire that ends up getting directed towards you about your microplot collection. I have no doubt a lot of it is unfounded and unwarranted, and is guilt by association, but at least some of it you could avoid by trying to present a more civil attitude.

I haven't had the pleasure of dealing with you in person, but I would have hoped that it would have been a pleasant one. I always give everyone, even A. Holetard, a chance with civility first.



Oh, I never claimed otherwise. I would never demand it, but I also have to expect that, failing a trade, I have to make do with whatever you leave me with, which is no different than dealing with a land extortionist. If I fail to deal with them, then I am left to deal with the plot configuration situation under the exact same circumstances. I did not say you were no better than a land extortionist, but effectively, the results would be the same. Anything you read into those words beyond that is completely of your own fabrication.

In actuality, I am trying to get you a roadside plot more in the center of the sim, in exchange for the hole in the middle of my plot, which is 20m or so from the road. I had every intention of initiating being polite and friendly. However, with the absolute "All land trades are suspended until further notice" posture, and then with the posting of an impossible condition for them to be resumed, I made the quite natural deduction that I am now SoL in this case.



Again, you are being reactionary; I only refer to that because that's what the result would be. I am left with screwing my build up because of someone else being intractable. Despite your best intentions, taking the posture of "Until LL gets their house together, screw the community", even if they were going to be nice and fair to you is not winning you any friends. Again, the image problem you and Dave seem to have where you are bringing at least part of it on yourself.



You trading plots is completely tangential to the problem. Whether or not Linden Lab does anything about the land extortionists / adfarmers, it shouldn't have any impact on your willingness to be a good neighbor to those who feel the same way. I am not expecting any privilege from it, just trading fairly and reasonably, under rational and common sense pretenses. Failing that, *I* will be doing more with less.

You don't have to tell me about sitting idly by.. I started a war over this BS. I have been VERY active campaigning against it, and I won't stop. The jerks threw the gauntlet down, and that's one thing you just don't do with a Dragon.



I haven't. I wasn't posting looking for a fight; just letting you know how I will cope with the situation no matter what. However, I am always open to a fight if someone REALLY wants one. >

Lots of excitement about this... I will watch to see what happens and hope for the best. Still I wonder how the Lindens will be able to resolve conflicts that they never see, interests that are opposing, but bring real money into the system, and abuse.

.... watching...

In the world of advertising there is something called "reach". This is the size of audience exposed to an advertisement through a particular medium.

Think about how this pertains to ads in SL. How many people will a particular ad on an ad farm reach? Only the residents who visit the sim.

How many people visit most residential mainland sims in SL? Very few. Of those few, how many actually read the ads? And of them, how many take action based on that exposure?

The answer, of course, is next to zero. These ads are completely ineffective.

But wait, if they are not reaching anyone and no one is taking action when they see them, why do ad farms continue to proliferate?

You can tell me it's because they are a good way to advertise your goods or services. But there is only one real reason: They exist to extort money from nearby residents. Because the only people the ads reach are the neighbors who are willing to buy their view back.

It's dirty (and ugly) business.

It's been said earlier in this thread, but with half-sim tier, purposely all old mainland, I add my voice to the chorus asking that you not ignore existing mainland with any new policies. SpamTowers and the threat of SpamTowers has driven most of the buying and selling decisions I've made over the years. I've paid ridiculous prices for a neighboring parcel for sale just to prevent the SpamTowers and land cutters, and I'm done with it. Not only does it cost me $$$, it also prevents a legitimate new neighbor from coming in to add to the cooperation and eclectic creativity that the mainland at it's best can provide. Existing mainland needs protection and eradication of the SpamTowers more than new mainland.

I also join in asking that existing mainland infrastructure not be ignored by the LDPW and similar initiatives. I applaud the efforts so far (still not sure why I now get bugged any time I drive past the sandbox in Obscure, or why there are spots on Governor Linden owned roads where the parcel is so small that a 19prim vehicle is returned to inventory, or why there are areas where jagged ban lines cross into a Governor Linden road), but I think existing roads (and Great Walls) should be traversable also. Protect Linden waterways also by eliminating encroachment. While there are legitimate, attractive and useful ways to encroach on the Governor's land, one selfish builder should not be allowed to use a building to completely block access to Linden waterways (no ban lines allowed next to the Governor's land?).

Bloomin Mole is my hero! Give that rat a raise...or at least a Public Service Award. Drivers on and neighbors of Routes 1 and 2 owe a debt of gratitude to Bloomin Mole and the whole LDPW team.

I am in support of legitimate advertising, and I think there should be community standards regarding the same. I don't see much legitimate land-based advertising in SL at all, and I think I should. The builders and owners of SpamTowers are *not* in the advertising business. Oh, and btw, Weedy Herbst is done a dis-service by being categorized with these weeds - he/she has never been anything but a considerate and flexible neighbor...that little empty square doesn't hurt anything at all.

Thank you for giving me confidence and hope that the mainland that built SL into what it is today will someday have the value-adds necessary to justify the premium price paid for it (and the long-term revenue generated from it), instead of being treated like an abandoned wasteland filled with trash washing up on the many gems that are to be found there.

well it sounds very serious, and it restored my trust in LL to come up with a sollution for the ad-farmer neighbours, like raymond said if they take away the extortion profits there will be few left.

I'm sure this has already been mentioned,
but I will add my voice to the idea that the #1 management step that LL can take that would have an overall positive impact on the mainland is setting a minimum parcel size.

The Sim I am in currently has countless 16 sq. m plots that are making swiss cheese out of the landscape. Some have ads on them and other are set to no access or for sale at 50+ Lindens per sq. meter.

All this subdivision and fragmentation of land makes buying a decent plot of land on the mainland much more difficult than it should be!

Thanks for opening comments on this important issue.

Wow, just saw all this.

Jack, this is awesome. I'm sure there won't be perfection - but to do nothing at all would be worse than trying things, even if they ultimately don't all work.

People can quickly sense when there is sincere change and effort, and will stand with you in such case.

Good luck!

Hey Ewan Mureaux - I had to laugh. The resident you talk about in your video, Cytherea Eagle, whose poor little parcel is blocked by the ad sign, is an ad farmer. ROFLMAO She has a habit of buying up parcels around her ad parcel by blocking the other advertisers and rendering their parcels useless.

This is also the ad farmer who got my wall returned, mentioned in an earlier post. LOL

DRD

As a whole im very much for this, spam towers ,advertising, dildo missle silos. LL gave us our freedoms and they were misused.
I would like some more details on how LL is going to change coast lines as i live on the old continant on a LL water way that leads out to a LL sea i was very lucky to get the land for the price i did and hope i dont wake up one day to find the water way filled in .

By the way what happend to the anoucnments on the splash screen!?

Hey Ewan, you really need to finish your dinner before making movies.

Just kidding. Probably voice was doing its normal clicking and smacking which is why I avoid it like the plague it is.

Timo linked it to me earlier today, and it is pretty good. Though the subject of the movie is an easy target.

yes she is a fine caracter, after offering half the price for a parcel of her, she doubled the price, and replaced her ad-sign with a green glowing monster, lmao at her block

On the issue of ban lines and zoning may i suggest you create "open" only zones where ban lines are not allowed and zone them in avenues or corridoors within the other zones. This would allow more free low level air travel on the mainland either by vehicle or avatar.
It is likely you could combine this within commercial only zones as these are unlikely to need ban lines in the first place.

This aside great policy change... im jealous it will be like playing Sim City on a grand scale XD

Minimum parcel sizes is not the solution. Deleting the accounts of ad farmers is the solution.

There are valid uses for small parcels so please discontinue trying to promulgate a code solution for a lack of policy and lack of policy enforcement in a manner that makes people know "it hurts to do that".

I do hope LL intends to remove ad farmers from SL period and return the carved parcels to adjacent legitimate land owners or use them for a tree or bush.

Advertising should be limited to sparse and well designed signs only along roads at ground level and blocked from non road view by trees and/or berms. These signs would be owned by LL and advertising would be purchased from LL in the same manner as classified advertising. Purchased ads would be randomly rotated around the controlled advertising units that would also be present in welcome centers.

I am more concerned with existing businesses and privately owned existing parcels being excluded and land devalued as a result. I would hope there is also a plan in place for existing parcels.

*Trin

One of my first ever, they got better.

Lets be clear, she's a tool but its very obvious a few of them (100% sure have witnesses) work as a cartel (if its isnt all of them).

True story.........

We have a 1/4 sim roadside for sale, I go to potter around on it and spot mr slbay (i'll use company names cos they are public) is hanging around so i immediately take it off sale and ban him. Two minutes later "kalyra real estate" show up and tell us we are bullies. They then inform us that they will mess up the parcel next door. Sure enough not long later it is purchased by sahani estates and divied up between bte global (yes i know they are the same), slbay and kalyrra real estate. And up pop the huge floaty, spinny, particley ads.

I hate anecdotes. but the point is they work as a pack and they know what they are doing is hitting people where it hurts.

I have a simple house, workshop and a small art store high in the sky, over a plot of water, with nothing on the ground. Why in the sky, well it's a matter of common sense and courtesy. I just didn't want to obstruct anyones views.

Every tool can be abused. Zoning and convenients are tools which can cause more harm then good if applied improperly or without flexibility.

Yes, Ad farms are an eye sore. But don't forget: backing up inventory, or areas in malls to unpack your purchases.

Yes, Huge and Mega prims can be an issue. Used properly in moderation they are not an issue.

In the end my only advice to the Lindens is to not strangle the life out of their world with too many rules. A set of guidelines in the covenants section and a person to contact for each sim may be the best way to go.

Never forget the Linden's rule the roost. Please don't take offense I say when it comes down to it Second Life is a place to go play. We can always pickup our toys and go home if we don't want to play here.

I'm fairly confident that responsible, responsive estate owner can do much better for their tenants than LL is likely to do in this last gasp effort to grasp at any straw that might halt the freefall of mainland values.

I applaud these efforts even if they are too little too late.

But given that LL has established de facto contracts with mainland owners (and I would think that includes many ad farmers and data farmers) the Lab is not likely to have nearly as much latitude to correct these problems as it may imagine. Just say I'm not holding my breath to see much meaningful change unless it comes from residents themselves.

If I'm wrong I hope the surprises are pleasant ones. But I'm not banking on that.

When a discussion is highly serious, as this one is, I believe that contributors should say where they are coming from so others better understand their main points. My comments are made from this background:
* resident 22 months.
* always wanted to contribute to the social experience of all.
* never wanted to be a business person.
* was homeless, then First Land owner, then larger-scale developer.
* always only interested in mainland, not a separate private island.
* first built a large public park on 88,000 sqm. The park has good visitation and I receive compliments from pleased visitors.
* built some mid-scale sims for the entertainment and education of SL residents.
* built a large-scale campus for my RL university with, so far, 35 buildings and activity centers on 40,000+ sqm.
* I am entirely public-service oriented for the good of fellow residents.

Jack, your words sound good, even hopeful, but please let me offer this thoughts:

* I like the college town atmosphere of the mainland around my university campus. There are many ways to build a campus in SL. Lots of institutions buy islands in the SL ocean so they can control usage and keep out unwanted people. However, since our RL campus is embedded in a small town and our students experience a mix of social environments, I wanted something more real for the Second Life campus. So, I bought land on the SL mainland. The surrounding area in the region and nearby regions is much like a typical college town with residences, small shops, a mall, fields with rolling hills, and the Second Life ocean. If restrictive covenants had been in place when I started in SL, I wonder if I would have been prevented from building a university campus or a public park?

* With global zoning, will future SL residents be prevented from doing whatever they can imagine? LL's "whatis" page says, "From the moment you enter the World you'll discover a vast digital continent, teeming with people, entertainment, experiences and opportunity ... be surrounded by the Creations of your fellow Residents ... a place dedicated to your creativity. It's about dreaming of something one moment and bringing it to life the next." Would free-form creativity be dampened or stifled by new rules? Could it be possible that you might dream of something one moment, but we prevented from bringing it to life the next moment?

* The many ad-farm land extortionists have ruined a good thing for the handful of serious retail and corporate advertisers. I strongly support First Amendment freedoms in RL, and by extension in SL. Advertising is important, protected speech in RL and should be in SL. However, just as smart communities in RL have found ways to reduce the general ugliness of billboards and unplanned urban blight, advertising could be controlled to a degree in parts of SL.

* SL residents are a diverse, multifaceted, pluralistic, global population. Who can say what is the best experience for each resident? You say mainland life is too dynamic and unpredictable for some residents so you plan zoning to meet their needs. This is an unsettling thought if their needs require the kinds of inaccessible privacy that could cover activities and lifestyles that in RL we would think of as violations of human rights. One of the great strengths of SL has been the unfettered contact with the international multicultural population. That contact has allowed the vast majority of residents to gain appreciation of different cultures as well as see first-hand how repulsive bdsm and Gor can be.

* Some of the concerns you discussed must impact very small groups. For instance, you mentioned areas of problem terrain, especially coastline. The SL viewer splash screen always has put forth coastline as one of the most attractive qualities of SL. As in RL, I imagine there are those who wish to be landlocked and others who would long for the water's edge. What is the complaint that requires an intervention by LL?

--Stone Semyorka

These announcements are always met with cheers and fears.

I love the fact that LL will start to enforce a few things into getting some residents to behave when they are making life difficult for others (ad farms) and even provide communities for groups of people to gather (covenants).

What I wonder is how this will affect mainland currently for users and what rules be in place. Personally I love mega prims and have seen great works (IBM's use of them) but cannot understand why others use them (large walls that stretch 50 - 100 meters above ground level). Also what communities will LL recognize? Are these communities going to be only PG or is LL gonna take active roles in mature rated communities as well. Are the areas gonna ban mixing business areas with personal ones?

I can't wait to see what happens but gonna hold off a bit before I pop open the champagne on this one. Alot of talk but not alot of details about what will happen exactly...reminds me of the verification posts.