Feedback on the Mainland

Define advertising. Is a Relay for life board advertising? A shop sign? A mall sign? NCI sign? SL Shakespeare company production sign?

Needless to say, many private island owners have been doing exactly this sort of management for years. It's not an easy business because the cripplingy high monthly tier makes competitive pricing difficult (though not impossible), but islands have many advantages beyond price. Don't like those ad plots? There aren't any. Want to be sure nobody puts up a mall next door, or a banline? Done. Wondering why the sim has gotten so laggy? An estate manager can find who's running the crazy scripts. Need to report a problem to management? Their names are listed right in the covenant, and some of them may live in the sim with you, nipping problems in the bud before anyone has a chance to complain.

I applaud Linden Lab's efforts to become responsible estate owners, despite the possibilty they will undercut those of us who've been doing this for a long time now (and I wonder if they are even considering how that will affect the economy). But there's no need to wait for LL to fulfill their promises or worry if their customer support structure can handle this project. There are lots of private islands with land available of all sort of sizes and themes right now!

Is artificially lowered support really the answer, though? Right now, the Mainland has been left for dead. If support was equivalent to tier paid, the mainland should be paying next to nothing. Concierge and estate controls? Land control, script control? The ability to use megaprims? The ability to (really) keep out griefers?

No such thing on the mainland for the most part. And we pay upwards of US$600 a month for our mainland space. It ain't small potatoes, but again, back in the day, it's not like we had a choice. (And, sure, we do now, but only if we're willing to re-pay for every bit of land we've bought and write off those $1000's as an "oops".)

Do you think we have no position to raise an eyebrow ourselves for what amounts to no attention whatsoever?

By the way. If the Mainland does improve, if you don't think that LL will raise tier on us, you're mistaken. I'm fully confident that that they will, even if this isn't a home run.

Jack is a good guy. I don't envy his position. It's like giving someone a sheriff's badge and expecting him to clean up the entire Wild Wild West. Close to impossible.

I guess I'm still smarting from LL's empty promise to do something about land bots. And ad farms. Not to mention the very odd math they use to determine when to flood the mainland market with sims.

good post Jack and very welcomed. the mainland could add more value to SL in general with the type of approach that is coming. as both an estate owner and rl consultant to corporations, the current "free-for-all" of the mainland is often a point i have to address to clients

as an estate owner, i am not an island (lol, "no man is an island", sorry could not resist) and by increasing the value of sl to the rest of the world, you help insure that my investment will continue to hold it's value

thank you for looking at this issue and i look forward to seeing sl continue to improve and remain the metaverse leader

all of you at Linden pour your hearts into sl and approach all issues with incredible thought and passion that we never see on this side. i do not take you for granted

good luck! =)

I'm aware of, that private simowners have much more control over the land, but it was stated, that LL will compeete directly with the private simowners, so I was just wondering, if LL just wants to grab the $ and then don't care about them.
Last time I saw the numbers, there were more islands abandoned, than new coming up, so it looks like the plan is working.

Don't misunderstand med, I'm very much in favour of the new plans for the mainland, but if LL wants to make it like the private sims, then the tier simply have to be the same.

Cant read all the replies but I will post.
You say there may be no ad land available in the future what about the existing mainland if I want to sell and move that will make it harder for me to sell mine.
I like the idea however. Also, I do think there should be no ad's farmed in to any new rules on what they can do. How about just limiting the height of these ads?
Also ban lines are the most horrible. Please stop them. Ppl can ban individuals from there land or make them invisible please. It destroys my look when I have ppl come and visit me.
Thanks

And I have no doubt that it will be, if it is made equivalent. I really think that private owners have little to worry about, as I believe that mainland tier will eventually be equivalent *anyways*, even if we don't get equivalent controls and capabilities.

Well, there seems to be a lot of "the left hand doesn't know what the right is doing". And then there are promises that are "paving the road with good intentions" that never come to fruition due to shifting focuses and priorities.

I'm not apologizing for it. There are plenty of things I could rant on until i'm blue in the face (err...) -- but the SL Public Works folks and Jack *have* to some extent in the past put their 'money where their mouth is', so I'd say if _anyone_, give these guys a shot at it.

But no, I'm not putting down any wagers, either.

OK, so LL will employ people to manage 5000 sims, that means that the sims will cost more to run, but tier wil be cheaper than private sims that need no LL involvement??

Something dosent add up.

LL employs around 300 people, total, from the person that makes the tea to the CEO.
There are approx 5000 regions to be managed
If everyone becomes an estate manager, that is 16.6 regions per person. that is a lot of work, so now who looks after the servers, updates the code, runs the company. hmmmmm.

As has been stated, this is just another way of advertising new regions for sale by LL, another way to make money and force out private island owners.

Big Brother is taking over.

This Change will eliminate 75% of your Customer base Are you ready? Linden Labs! and no i DONT have any ad farms , just Clearly now more then ever , i can see Secondlife's orginal Vision of be anything do anything slipping away, How about renaming Secondlife to Restricted Life ? Loyal Customer to linden labs since 2005 continuously watching them make mistake after mistake then they put up those survey's " IS sl better now then it was 3 years ago answer is NO is worst now then 3 years ago how about eliminating bots and campers? to free up them resources ? Bring back some old school things to SL to encourage people to stay , participate in secondlife like LIVE HELP, Like ratings on people profiles

Kudos to LL for a step in the right direction with Zoning. As for IW advertisers; I will hold off on that until ALL the details are told.

I do have one concern however. This new plan seems to only include land owned or going to be owned by Gov't Linden (Linden Lab) and not existing land owners. I fear that ppl will continue to move away from smaller private lots to more of LL owned land. Leaving the private land owner with worthless land. Very much like what is happening now with Bay City. I would think that the interests of your customers would be of concern to you also. Why not give us the same tools you have so we can also help create zoned areas. I for one would rather work towards a common goal than watch my investment become part of the new world zoned order coming from LL.

*Trin

ad·ver·tise (dvr-tz)
v. ad·ver·tised, ad·ver·tis·ing, ad·ver·tis·es
v.tr.
1. To make public announcement of, especially to proclaim the qualities or advantages of (a product or business) so as to increase sales. See Synonyms at announce.
2. To make known; call attention to: advertised my intention to resign.
3. To warn or notify: "This event advertises me that there is such a fact as death" Henry David Thoreau.
v.intr.
1. To call the attention of the public to a product or business.
2. To inquire or seek in a public notice, as in a newspaper: advertise for an apartment.
[Middle English advertisen, to notify, from Old French advertir, advertiss-, to notice; see advert1.]



Yes to all. They are all advertising something.

Keep an eye on such parcels for a few months. Generally such pricing is intended as a personal joke (except for ad farmed lots). Lots set to such levels rarely if ever sell at those prices.

I realise it's hard to define and make choices but so are may real world problems that as a society we manage to solve. I trust the community to collectively discuss and define it if we give people chance and a structure to do it in.


For what it's worth my opinion is...

I doesn't matter what something is actually advertising. It doesn't get an exception because I agre with the cause because I recognise that this is subjective. If I want adverts I don't like banned the cost is that adverts I do like are banned too for other peoples benefits. I don't get to murder people I don't like either.

There is a distinction between an advert (bad) and a sign (ok).

So for your examples...
Any board advertising - yes if it can be seen from someone elses land.
A shop or mall sign - no
NCI sign - sorry don't know what this is to comment.
SL Shakespear... - If this is a sign on a theatre no. If it's an advert somewhere else then yes.

eh... I've seen them sell. Sometimes people just want to get rid of the problem, and realistically, paying the "extortion" prices is honestly the only way to actually do it a good lot of the time.

It really only has to happen once or twice in a blue moon for it to pay off to these folks.

I have not read the all comments made on this forum yet, but I must say these words before this forum fills up with multitude of comments and this important LL POLICY QUESTION is buried again.

I would strongly suggest that this comment should reach the upper echelon in LL, and the ones that runs the BUSINESS SIDE of LL and not the "techies" with all due respect.

In any social, political or economic system, where people are involved, there is an interaction of structural and functional aspects. Every system has two concurrent aspects, normally called CONTINUITY & CHANGE. While change is a must of the functional side, and especially required to deal with arising new challenges everyday, change in strcutural side is rather a drastic step, and should normally be avoided unless extremely necessary.

And if, and when, structural change is necessary, it is imperative to have an in depth study of the probable future direction such change will lead to. What current issues be solved, that off course you d know because that's why you want change, but you must think what new issues would arise because of the suggested change in say 5 years, and how they would be dealt with. And, if those issues would again require you to make structural changes in near future, STOP & RETHINK THE DESIGN. It will save you trouble, money, labour and resources in the long run, and would bring a success that would be labeled as glory because of the strong foundations you would have with a large and stable clientele.

"But, we have stable clientele!" well, that can be debated. Hire a social scientist and ask him/her to explain what I mean by 'stable clientele'. Just the number of sims that pay you money regularly does not mean stable clientele unless the business model is akin to the one of a street hawker.

If it all sounded googledegook to some fellows, let me straighten it out for you. Since the day I have joined SL, I have seen apparently haphazard, disorganized, almost whimsical structural changes coming out of the blue that seriously affect the whole set of rules the game is played. At one hand, LL wants to lure big business to SL, and on the other constantly keep changing policies with total disregard to how it would affect in-world social, political and business dynamics. The result is ABSENCE of STABILITY and consequently trust that is required to launch something big. I cannot be sure that the next morning I'd wake up and LL would have a new policy that avatars with names starting with letter S must not do business in SL.

Say, in your country, every other week the government announces a new law, annuls a previous one; Fed come up with new rates, etc etc: what effect you think it would bring to the society and every aspect of it including economy? You are running a world, remember?

The most recent example in SL, is change of policy regarding openspaces. How many times do you expect the businesses to rewrite their business plans, take losses, rethink strategy, liquidate assets, change logos on their sites etc to cop with your out of the blue decisions that change the whole structure. There is nothing wrong with having any policy as long as you don't change it every next morning you feel enlightened with an idea to add 10 bucks to the bottom line for this month without fretting over how it would affect in the long run. SL would be much more colourful, and with stable clientelle if it has millions of residents with one sim each compared to a few residents with millions of sims each, and also the satisfied residents that don't have to rethink their survival or existence in SL every other month because of a new policy decision.

All that said, wish you good luck with this new planning. It sounds good, but please do your homework and do not readily change it the next month after you have implemented it once. Think that NOW, what you might have to change after implementing it. People would welcome all the pain at once, if it means there would be no more or little pain for the rest of the times.

While I agree with the part about making mistakes, the fact of the matter is that SL has NEVER been "be anything do anything". There has been a ToS for a LONG time, and it has proscribed quite a wide array of activities and behaviors since the service was created. This is nothing new; in a "free" or "anarchic" society, there will always be some people who will take more than their fair share, ones who commit the Tragedy of the Commons. Without rules and restrictions, the society will find itself unable to self-sustain, and it will wither and decay into chaos. Sometimes, these problems don't appear initially, and only come about as a society matures, which is why any "laws" also have to mature with it. This is (ostensibly) one of those situations.

Adcertising is a part of life in the real world, BUT you will not see huge hoardings in the middle of a housing estate, or in the middle of a country park, a lake, or any place of that type, however you will see them in the centre of the main shopping areas of any city, and by the side of main roads.
easy answer apply the same rules to SL, advertising is allowed where it is appropriate, and banned where it is not.

@167 well said sir.

Sorry to burst your Bubble but Linden labs did advertise in there orgainal vision , SL limited to your own Mind, Be and do anything in Secondlife! I do own a buisness in SL i dont have ad farms , and i own Mainland after 3 years of paying my tier i shouldnt have to close down my business because of zoning issues its complete bullcrap and i am imagine alot of other business owners will be pissed , i am pretty sure there will be a major lawsuit agaisnt Linden labs about this if they force business that have been in sl for year to move to private sims

Oh they sell, but nowadays a lot less than they used to, thanks to the efforts of many residents who are now fighting them instead of paying them off.

BTW, in response to your image question of whether or not the signs on the tree amount to an adfarm, I would say no. They are quite obviously intended for your customers/tenants/visitors, and could not possibly be considered intrusive or offensive under a rational advertising policy.

I observed an interaction today between a Linden and a landowner who had been targeted with an AR by an ad farmer. The farmer was obviously responding to the failure of his extortion attempts, and filed a spurious report complaining that his "access" was restricted.

In light of the conversation, along with this thread, it becomes clear that whatever the emerging policy is, it will be no relief for those of us currently contending with ad farmers on the mainland, and that enforcement on the mainland will continue to be arbitrary and favor the extortionists over those attempting to create a compelling VR experience for their tenants and visitors.

To solve the problem on the mainland, we need a policy that seizes extortionist parcels and reconnects them to the surrounding land. We also need a lower "standard of proof" so that obvious extortionist parcels can be ARd and seized before the honest landholders have to engage in protracted dialog with the farmers. It might help for LL to police these transactions better and set up "sting" operations to catch the cutters.

We don't need zoning or governance to tell us what we can or cannot build on land we own. We need common sense to prevail. We need parcel-block-cutting and parcel-donut cutting outlawed, and we need the existing blocks and donuts rejoined. We need enforcement that honors the spirit of the existing policies and lets us get rid of visual spam and useless empty advertising parcels that exist only to pollute the search space.

The only "bubble" you are bursting is your own.

Sorry if you bought into marketing hype, but the ToS has been there from the beginning. You didn't get to harass people back then, you don't get to harass them now. Nothing has changed about that. That never was, and never will be, part of the "do anything, be anything", despite your absolutionist take on it.

You also haven't read much of the posts or Jack's responses where existing mainland zoning is more than likely not going to be a part of this initiative. So, your business is safe. My business is safe. Zoning will only initially affect NEW sims. IE, ones which haven't been created yet.

Won't making new "Zoned" mainland regions further devalue existing mainland and estates? I understand You need to sell a product, but how many times can You repackage it?

Please remember each time You make a drastic change in policy You can severely effect Your existing customers investments, business plans, etc.

I do not see LL's new ideas for the mainland as competition to private estates. Unless they hire 1000s of G~Teamers to manage the mainland, LL can't compete with a well managed private Estate. =)


I appreciate this forum Jack.
Alisha

Look at the date of ownership. In nearly every instance, it's likely we were there first. Not one person has any right to expect us to do anything with our land other than be. Especially those who came along much later.

Clearly, we have no intention in punishing anyone because of LL's policies. It's a matter of viability. When we were flush, we could afford alot more time invested to re-create neighborhoods, we made every effort possible although we understand sometimes IMs get capped or messages are inadvertantly deleted. Sometimes crashing shortly after login causes messages to poof. We are not perfect by any stretch of the imagination, In fact, we traded a plot less than an hour ago, by someone who worked very hard to clean up Watershade sim and presented themselves in a very kind and supportive manner. I didn't have the heart to refuse them, so despite it all, we are willing to make exceptions.

Trading land to help your boundaries is a priviledge, not right to be demanded by anyone at will. We had numerous people request land trades, where they own some shit plot in between the walls of a fort or enclosed in some adfarm mess, expecting a trade for our roadside plots (when they don't even own the adjacent land) and extorting even higher prices. This has caused us to inspect every situation in person, before responding and performing any transaction. I must say, by and large... those who make requests are very polite and friendly.

Even though you stipulated to our position (for the mostpart) the word "extortionist" dropped into your post in a very accusatory way and all that does is put more distance between us when it comes to resolution. We have been around alot longer than extortionists and resent being lumped in with them simply because it's easy to say, particularily about something which is "Johnny-come-lately" to us. We have a very real problem with that and unless something gets done about it, the situation can only get worse.

Ad cutters and land extortionists are a bane to our existence. We could trade every single plot we own with the neighbors and it will have zero effect on Linden Lab under their current system and policies. It's by no means an affront to you directly, but we simply cannot stand idlely by, while Linden Lab's inaction causes us great hardship. We have to draw to line somewhere, by doing more with less.

Simply put, lump us in with extortionists.... you'll be ignored. It settles nothing, other than pitting resident against resident because of failed policies.