Feedback on Ad Farm Post - Part 2

This won't be popular with anyone who owns land or who buys and sells land. The only reason these these microparcels exist at all is because of land speculation. There's nothing creative about buying land cheap and then turning around and selling it for more money, but this seems to be how these ad barons and extortionists make their money.

The formula is simple, they buy a large parcel as it comes on the market from LL, then they dice it up into smaller lots, add some hidden ad farms and 16m traps around the parcels and then just sit back and wait to start hassling people so you pay them to go away. Ad farms didn't come from LL and neither did 16M roadside parcels. Sometimes it's not even the ad barons who do it. Sometimes business owners will do it to recoup some of the cost of opening a shop, etc... However it's done, it always starts the price of the microparcel skyrocketing while it diminishes the value of the larger lot.

Real estate speculation is the real reason that land becomes overpriced in some areas of the mainland and greatly reduced in others. Even without microparcels, dicing up 4096 lots into 1024 lots and then 512 lots jacks the price up solely for the reason of making quick cash turning over new mainland. I've seen it happen on the newest mainland continents up north. I bought a 1024 lot on protected waterfront so I could have a boat slip on the new land for exploring. When I found it, the price was around 12,500$, so it was a no brainer to grab and there were several around it for the same price. So I bought one. Next day I come back, someone had bought all the rest of them and had them on sale again for 14,500$ and on and on it kept happening until the prices around me were just ridiculous. Good news if I want to sell it, but instead of nice houses on either side I have bare slips and reseller shops, plus some red no entry lines. Really glad I don't live there.

So even without ads, good sims turn to crap very fast when greed is the only motivating factor when buying or selling land. So what should be done? Do we eliminate free market sales of real estate? Put some kind of price cap or time limit so parcel flipping isn't quite so profitable for these people? Maybe if you had to wait a week or a month before you could resell a parcel or parts of it? Maybe if you could only sell it for what you paid for it, unless you hold onto it for several months?

I'm not sure what the solution is, but it seems to me, that just like in RL, real estate agents and speculators really contribute very little to the community while exerting a great deal of control over it and taking a tidy profit from it as well. Talk about parasites. By the time most of us get to buy a mainland parcel, it's been marked up and resold a dozen or more times. So it's very clear what the motivation is for running people off their own land with ad farming, devalue it so you can buy it back cheap.

So unless and until this kind of activity is no longer profitable for speculators I don't see any end to harassment schemes and extortion in SL.

Anybuggy heading to Jack's OH today?

What time is it and how do I get there?

Will try but I may be running late if I can not get out early. It is at http://slurl.com/secondlife/Linden%20Estate%20Services/213/107/49 right?

If it's my parcel I will do whatever I wish within its boundaries (within the Terms of Service and the Community Standards).

Why? Because it's my land. I own it. It's mine. Even if it's a small parcel.

I can price my parcel for whatever I wish to sell it for. If no one wishes to buy it then I can either come down in price, wait for an interested buyer or simply take it off the market.

Why? Because it's my land. I own it. It's mine. Even if it's a small parcel.

I am under no obligation to sell my land simply because someone demands that I sell it to them. I am under no obligation (as long as nothing within my parcel violates the ToS or CS) to modify, change, or eradicate anything on my land simply because a neighbor or random busybody doesn't like what's on my land.

Why? Because it's my land. I own it. It's mine. Even if it's a small parcel

To own Mainland within the framework of Second Life one must pay to be a Premium Member and one must also pay tier fees if they own more than a total of 512-sq.m. As long as I continue to pay my Premium Membership fee and my tier fees I own my land. I will do whatever I wish with it.

I'm seeing far too much complaining within this thread (and related threads) regarding things like ban lines ("How dare the owner keep people off their own property", pricing ("How dare the owner set the price for their own land", and builds ("How dare the owner put that thing on their own land".

Here's an example of a small parcel which, according to you, has the "least investment" and in turn, also according to you, has the "highest social cost.":
http://secondlife.com/whatis/explore.php

This parcel went through three rules changes: The elimination of Dwell payments, the elimination of Developers Bonus Awards and the change in Event Posting rules (this change actually afforded the parcel /less/ "identical rights". Not only did it survive these rules changes, it's featured on the Second Life website, is mentioned in the "official" guide, has garnered tons of media mentions, and is even referenced in some silly song paradoy.

It was later sold by its owner for well over L$1,000,000.

And it's on a 96-s.m parcel.

That's more than L$10,000 per sq.m (which to some people within this thread is "land extortion".

But, according to you, the fact that places like the Elbow Room even exist is a "design flaw" within Second Life.

If other residents wish to have the same "rights" as me it's very simple: They can become Premium Members (and have the right to own land).

If people want less "greed" in SL then they should quit worrying about what other people (landowners) do with their own land and instead focus on their own parcels (and enterprises).

1PM SLT in the Linden Estate Services sim.

I think the new policies have a very fair chance of working, but it will take time. Zoning new sims is likely to cause a slow drift of home owners towards residential sims, providing that no ads and such are allowed in them (I think that's the intention). There's no normal reason for land in a residential sim to be cut smaller than 512, so making it a requirement that cutting smaller parcels needs 'planning permission' could be part of their covenant, or if cut smaller, nothing visible can be placed on the parcel. Someone who needs a 16m can buy a larger plot, cut a 16 out, and sell what's left. That's probably what 'legitimate' 16m users do anyway.

It would be very good if the landowners in existing, no covenant sims could opt to have have a "no ads" covenant applied to it - 100% land owner agreement required - or even a residential covenant applied - also 100% agreement required. Or even parcel owners being able to opt in - and once in, the parcel stays in with no option to opt out - even if it changes ownership, and even if it's cut into smaller pieces.

There is a lot of mainland, and I can't see it being really cleaned up unless landowners can opt in to covenants. I can see it being improved with the new policy, but I can't see it being really cleaned up.

If LL do it well, and keep it up, then I can see it shaking out over time as home people migrate to the better sims, and leave the not so good sims to people's other needs.

Those two statements are at odds, and that's what this whole thing is all about. People are using land as a tool for harassment and extortion. Just as people use prims and scripts to grief other residents, people are also using land to do the same thing.

So, while your "utopic" view of land ownership would be nice if it actually existed, the rest of us have had to put up with crap that should have been nipped in the bud over two years ago.

So, yes, you can do whatever you want with your land as long as you don't use it to abuse your neighbors. That's what this is all about, and crying "freedom" in some William Wallace-esque fashion isn't remotely representing the issue at hand.

Freedom comes with responsibility. People who shirk that responsibility don't deserve the freedom.

Yeah, sorry to say, but abuses by people like you who think that because they "own" (a very loose term in SL) they can do anything they want to their neighbors and the community in general without a thought as to how your behavior affects others and the value of their land. Frankly your "ME, ME, ME" attitude is what is wrong with this place. We need a little more "WE, WE, WE" for a change and it looks like maybe we'll get it October 1st.

So read the fine print, because technically, you don't own squat, none of us do. Your land can be taken back at any time for any reason. So keep acting like you're the only one who matters and see how far that gets you come 10/1.

*sighs and rolls his eyes*

My statements are not at odds.

There are already rules in place to deal with harrassment (whether or not the Lindens wish to enforce the rules already in place is up to them). There is no need for additional rules to deal with adfarming.

As no one is under any obligation to purchase land that they feel is priced too high there is no extortion. If they wish to buy the land in the spirit of "societal good" then they may do so however I am under no obligation to thank them or to give them a parade.

In situations of "parcel cutting" the buyer had an obligation to inspect the land prior to purchase.

What I have a problem with is when people complain incessantly about ad parcels which violate no rules.

If someone wants to place three prims within the boundaries of a 16-sq.m parcel, the prims do not encroach upon other parcels, the prims do not emit spam, sounds or particle effects outside of their own boundary, the prims do not display imagery which violates the Tos or CS then the parcel owner is well within his rights. They can even turn on banlines and set the parcel price for a bazillion kajillion dollars if they wish.

As long as people don't violate the ToS or CS they are well within their rights to do whatever they wish with their own land.

However, as the current version of the ad farm proposal includes language regarding no ban lines then I'm opposed.

I have no issue with Land speculation as such, although I agree this practice appears to contribute very little to the community, however these people could be seen as investors, effectively helping to support the platform, by paying tier on quite a lot of unused land.
Don't know how much land is held by land sales groups, but looking at the map this could be a considerable amount between them.

Yes there will be hangers on looking for a little profit and this will most likely increase in areas of uniqueness like roadsides, waterfront and any other areas with special characteristics, supply and demand will always increase prices in these areas.
There is a point though, where the price exceeds demand limiting turnover and effectively keeping this in check, due to the tier prices.

However the micro parcel market is completely different, feeding on the investment a resident has already made to their land, this works by effectively threatening, pay the price or be threatened with adverts, vending machines whatever else we decide to put here, true it remains speculation as not every user is going to give in to this pressure.

Then it seems to sink to a new level, as in the example posted above, where if the parcel fails to sell as the resident holds out, they are contacted weekly, being harassed and hounded over a prolonged period of months!

At this point we have now gone beyond extortion and the seller has entered into a campaign of victimization and harassment at a whole new level.

Ahh... would you please list my "abuses." Having neither violated the Terms of Service nor the Community Standards I'd be very curious.

Assofaras as "we" I'm going to stick with "me." My obligation to anyone extends to and ends with myself.

I'm well aware that Linden Lab can revoke any resident's land at any time for any reason.

I did not, like I did before, read all postings. I am getting very tired of all of this and you can check my rez day to see for just how long I have been tired.

However at the point I stopped reading it was all this squabble about ads
This has barely anything to do with advertising at all

What prompted me to finally stop reading and post were a few people worried about "people who advertise" and "legitimate advertising" and so on.

It make me sick to my stomach that this has gotten off track like this. I have lived and conducted my business surrounded by lag, crap, particles, extortionists and on and on since I came to the mainland many year ago.

I also recently had to tier up and i use the land tab on SEARCH to find the land to fill up tail end of my tier as all that was left in my sim as extortion, garbage and lag left and right. That is was most people use. Spinning rotating uglyness to "sell" land is never needed, just like in the example of a poster early on in this thread.

for goodness sake you can just set your map to show you what land is for sale if you prefer to use the fly-around-and see method, however unlikely that may be

During the two/three days that I spent looking for land, I did not see one single "legitimate advertiser". What I did see whas the wreck of the mainland. chop up sims, ad farms..... and worse of all, landscapes and neighborhoods... just.. simply.. RUINED

so will everyone just stop trying to side track Jack about boohoo what ifs that are of no concern to anyone.

and IF they are, they are so few in number that 1) well you have to break some damn egg to make omlette 2) they do not seem to be concern enough to have yet posted on any of the thread of this issue 3) they know, like myself that successfull ads for their SL businesses are found elsewhere and not on a bunch of garbage prims littering the mainland landscape

Which imho is most likey why Jack ditch the licensing thing. I hope he realized that the only people who will have sign up where those looking to find a way to keep creating the garbage and extortion that they are currently doing.

I tell you the last time we all gathered here to discuss this, i found hope when many people said they got responses to their ARs. Well i decided to (again) AR the mess that surround me every day i log in.

Still no response (yet) even though the worst was from Governor Linden (yes i did AR her!) because people are use the land for their own purposes simply because AUTORETURN was not on.

unlike many who I read before I got so upset, I have hope on this change to what Jack said he would do. Hope that it means he understand this has only to do with advertising as it is used as a tool (one of many) to harass and extort and ruin the mainland in the process.

That's the attitude that caused the Elbow Room to empty and the people to over to The Pier. In fact it made The Pier.

In such instances the resident can Mute the seller and thus no longer be contacted by the seller of the parcel.

Except for one problem: there ARE NO RIGHTS for ANYone in SL. LL dictates what can be done with land, just like any estate manager can. It's LL's land, we only rent it from them; no true "title or deed of ownership" is conveyed. If they decide tomorrow that no black prims will be allowed on the mainland, guess what? Everyone has to remove them. Yeah, it's an absurd example, but the fact remains that they CAN make that restriction, like they CAN make ANY restriction they want, for their own benefit, or the benefit of the residents who own mainland. THAT is what this is all about.

*shrug* Personally, I am glad they are taking action. Property rights, even in RL, are not absolute, and are even less so in SL. People who abuse the PRIVILEGE of holding virtual land should lose that privilege.

I don't think that these are new rules so much as clarifications and specifications of existing rules. At least, that's my hope in how they are coming about.

And, it would seem, the Terms of Service and Community Standards are indeed shifting to disallow certain behavoirs.

Whether or not the Elbow Room is empty is up to its present ownership. As I no longer own the Elbow Room (I sold it) I'm under no obligation to wonder or worry about its day-to-day affairs.

You might wish to take up its present state with its owner (over at the Pier).

This will be changing with the new rules on 01-Oct-2008



I don't believe this was a proposal and up for a vote.

No. It was you, Elex.

*sighs and rolls his eyes again*

We exist within whatever framework of rules they wish to provide for us. In the event of any rules changes I always abide by them.

However, as there are already a number of things within the Community Standards and Terms of Service which apply to abusive ad parcels I'd rather see those particular rules enforced rather than a new set of rules (and the ensuing non-enforcement).

I was thinking about it, though it means sneaking off from work a little early..

Will the ad farmers (again) ask Jack over and over how they can get around his new policy?

Will Talarus explode??

Will Sarah finally just lose it and kick the bejesus out of whatshername??? (I'm bringing my abranimations mud wrestling pit, btw)

Did Jack get to sample a twinkie before he left SF????

It should be good..

Hmm... I'm not sure why anyone would pay L$1-million for an empty bar. Doesn't make a lot of sense.

Based on my own recollections the bar was always packed.

Whether people want to hang out at another gathering place or not is up to them.

And my "attitude" is what built that bar.

But, okay... I'll take the bait... so... Phil... could you please point me in the direction of the page on the SL website showing a photograph of your handywork? Or.. failing that... could you please tell me what page of the strategy guide I should turn to to see it? Or... maybe an issue of The New York Times mentioning it... because I'd really really really like to see what /your/ attitude has been getting you.

Anyway... getting back to the main point: I'm opposed to restrictions on ownerships of small parcels which do not violate the current incarnation of the Terms of Service and/or Community Standards.

Nope, it sure isn't.

However, Jack Linden asked for feedback.

I'm giving it.

Your brain blew up more than once, even trashing the place - same attitude as you're displaying here now - and the last time you drove everyone away - to the Pier. You made the Pier

If they paid what you said, they were out of their minds. You'd already cadged significant amounts of money from people, in a pretense of joint ownership. I hope they all got their fair share when you sold. I think I'll check on that.

I'll give you one thing though. You did create something different which was popular with a few people. The club was packed regularly, but it wasn't popular in the sense that other clubs are popular (lots of people in them), because your's measured only 10x10, including a bar, and it doesn't take many people to pack a place that tiny. But it was different because it was tiny - nothing special, but different.