Do we have an "SL-Killer"?

I told you what I mean by it, you know what I mean by it. I told you why I think it matters, you know why I think it matters. Argue that my definition is wrong, fine. Argue that it doesn't matter, fine. But making stuff up that you know I never wrote? That's just lame.


Um, what on earth are you talking about. I've explained at great length that this is about the culture, the society, the experience, the conceptual distance between consumers and creators.

It's got nothing to do with whether your sofa is "valid". The world isn't the "sofa", the world is the people, the environment, and the intersection between them.

It's got nothing to do with whether you, at this point, late in the game, are using the tools in a way that takes advantage of the "world"ness of the system. It's not about you, it's about the difference between a culture of hermit creators and blind consumers, and a culture where there's a whole world of alternatives from people who occasionally rez a prim (or a mesh, or a snarfdoodle) through to, yes, the inevitable hermit-creators.

And it doesn't matter if OpenSim is 100% compatible with SL, because everyone who's legally moving a script from SL to OpenSim wrote the script in the first place, so they can fix it.

Ok City = Region (like a sim).

Yes, you have to see a loading screen to travel from City to City. However look at it like this: If a region can be 3000 x 3000, that is equal to 121, 256x256 SL regions - or if you really do the math (like someone else just did for me over yahoo! hahahaha) you get 137 SL size regions out of 9,000,000m2, which is a 3000x3000 region You can have a A LOT of content in that place - there are no prim restrictions there is no fee for region size - the region owner determines that. So, basically one can have a 2004 SL experience map wise, hold more people than SL could through 2005, inside Blue Mars with content that can be absolutely stunning, numbing - intelligent creations - animals, pets, robots, etc, a full MMORPG of your own design, or whatever... So yes you will see a loading screen from City to City, but it is quite possible you could join BM, find a community and live your virtual life there with more content available to you then you could ever explore, being updated however often creators update, and never leave that City - just like SL, almost - i think a little better than SL now in that regard...

I, for one, am orgasmic at the prospects...

I couldn't go anywhere where I wasn't free to build stuff. Now I've had a taste at it, no advanced graphics or extra prims would lure me.

I think there will be a valid market for Blue Mars.

Since LL has managed to piss off so many of it's userbase and worst to come when everyone is aware of the Adult Content policy...BlueMars could be a viable alternative for that 3D VW experience.

E.g A Stripper who is NPIOF working in a Strip club and doesn't want to adult verify, might opt to take her stripping talents to Blue Mars eventually.
E.g Maybe a land baron who got burnt through the Open Space Sims debacle, might consider investing and buying/creating a City on Blue Mars.....and commission Content Creators to build it for him/her.
E.g Joe & Jane Schmoe might be fed up with all the lag on their home Sim, so setting up home on a Grid with better graphics and stability might be a viable option.

Maybe people have gotten bored with SL, maybe some need a new beginning, a new identity, something new, something fresh.....umpteen reasons for at least trying it out.

.....the list is endless, but most certainly there is a market. Customer service will be a key factor, allowing adult stuff, sex animations etc...will also be key for mass appeal.

Making stuff up? I quote you each time, as I am doing now. It was you who used the phrase 'playing sillybuggers with definitions', when it is you who has done that throughout with your ludicrous definition of a virtual world, while ignoring how the industry defines it, how the conventions and virtual world shows define it, how wikipeadia defines it, how the creators of virtual worlds define it, and the writers on books on how to create a virtual world define it, how Mark Kingdon defines it, and the list goes on.

You choose to ignore all the people who state in these forums that they have no interest in building in SL, nor with watching others while they do it.

Here is a challenge: try going to RaC and ask any girl there looking at those wonderful skins and hair if she has ever watched the creator making them. When they say 'no', ask them if they care.

Try going to the Heart Garden Centre, and ask the folk looking at Lilith's lovely creations the same two questions.

Try going to Stroker's and ask the same two questions to people looking at the sexgen beds.

Try going to VRchitecture and ask the same two questions to people looking at ArchTX's wonderfully designed homes.

Then try sending an IM to any of those creators and ask them if they prefer to create with an audience or alone, or if they collaborate on their designs and creations (ArchTX is on this forum, so he will probably answer this one himself). All the creators I have ever met in SL build alone (unless they are customizing for a particular client), apart from the occasional girlfriend who hangs around waiting for him to finish so she can whisk him off to that new hair store she has found.

You are in such a minority with your view of SL that you really are in a world of your own, so in that respect feel free to define it however you like, but it is NOT a definition of a virtual world that the overwhelming majority of SL users recognize.




Culture, yes; society, yes; experience, yes; 'the conceptual distance between consumers and creators', what absolute tosh, the only 'conceptual distance between consumers and creators' that the overwhelming majority of residents in SL are aware of, is the price.



By 'valid' I was referring to the creation experience, not the sofa, I think you deliberately try to misunderstand. Whether you like to build on a platform, at 4000m, with your status set to busy, or in an opensim sandbox, is precisely the same experience. One of peace and quiet, with no interruptions. By all means, cast aspersions on creators who like it that way, and call them 'hermit creators', perhaps the next time you are creating a texture in Photoshop (because you cannot create a texture in SL, there are no tools to do that) you will invite us all around to your house to watch you in action, and offer advice. Start ordering the beers and the deckchairs now (this is getting so laughable). And by all mean, call all the people who do not come to your home to watch you in action 'blind consumers'.




Of course it matters! Why do you think people are up in arms about it? Oh, I forgot, you are in your own little world, where normal rules don't apply. But I will try to explain it to you anyway (not that it will help much). In the opensim irc channel we had a script writer who had spent weeks perfecting a script in Opensim for a really nice vehicle he has been working on, getting the physics just right. He then copies/pastes the script into SL and it doesn't work, and he has no idea which of all the LSL commands he has used in his 10 page script is the one causing the problem. Others then shower the channel with similar stories. Sure, just tell them it doesn't matter, tell them to stop whining and get it fixed, if you want to be on their mute list.

And as for 'legally moving' scripts, you also forget (maybe its age) all the open-source scripts in the script library, so the users of these scripts did NOT write the script in the first place, but wish to modify it for their purposes, and have the right to do so. Try looking up the term 'open-source'.

Rock

"Playing sillybuggers with definitions" doesn't mean "consistently using a definition you don't agree with", it means "changing the meaning of words every comment".

You don't agree with me, that's fine. But deliberately ignoring WHY I'm using the term the way I am is a whole different kettle of fish.

I didn't "ignore" it, I explained very carefully what my reasoning was, and made it absolutely clear why that wasn't relevant.

Again, you're twisting my point.

Then say that.

YOU accuse ME of deliberately misunderstanding? YOU? Holy crap.

*plonk*

Absolutely. I'm not for one minute saying that it can't be successful. This thread isn't "Will Blue Mars be successful", it's "Do we have an SL-Killer".

Personally I think it's very possible to have the feeling and aspects of community in a virtual world without actually doing the building inworld. Rock seems to agree, Argent Stonecutter, not so much. Perhaps it's time to agree to disagree?

Sometimes people find a niche for themselves in one world and don't like the idea of having to start all over as a newbie in another. Sometimes people are intimidated by the software. Sometimes people are afraid that this new world will change the one they are in and they fear that change. Sometimes people need to find a way to demonize the unknown so they don't have to address it. These are concerns better dealt with internally than on a forum methinks

I'm excited about only showing my finished work. Being able to know that everything will be perfect when I upload it.

I'm more curious about stuff like - what does the avatar mesh look like - how much customization of personal space will you be able to do, will you be able to buy a large object, like a house, and rez it on land you rent ...

I think we've already established that BM is unlikely to kill SL. It is unique and there are people who are happy here and likely won't ever try anything else. The discussion has moved on to the differences between the two and the impact that BM will have on SL. It would be great to get back to that now

My biggest concern would be land prices changing in SL. I own a number of sims. Time will tell how that pans out I guess.

+1

Avatar mesh - TBC
Customization of personal space - TBC
Buy a large object, like a house, and rez it on land you rent - TBC

All these should be answered when the Server/Client beta starts in June, and I have those questions and a 100 more I would like answering too.

For example:

In early testing, clients that logged into Blue Mars arrived at Beach City, next to some boards with images of other cities on them, clicking one sent you there, similar to clicking on a SL teleport board. In the Sandbox you move from City to City by selecting the one you want from a Menu. I cannot imagine as BM grows there will be a 1000 boards to click on, so I really want to see how that one will be handled.

How do you position or resize goods in BM if you do not have creator status? I think Jim implied that tools like this for residents was being worked on.

Will there be any fees for uploading, as in SL?

If I want a city for the purpose of hosting a concert, holding up to 5000 people (avatars), but concerts are only once a week, will I be charged for the resources 24/7, whether used or not, or will it be useage metered?

Will they be charging European customers VAT?

Will there be some kind of world map?

So many questions, so much impatience

I really do hope that the beta goes ahead as scheduled, betas in the past have not been reknown for being on schedule :\

Rock

IF Blue Mars allows sex.

It is over for SL.

Only the diehards and those that require an inworld building tool will be staying.

Sex got SL where it is today.

If Blue Mars cities can do as they wish when it comes to sex...You can imagine what is going to happen.

hey Briana,

Earlier in this thread you mentioned that you had access to the BM world?
Is that really true?

The reason I ask is that someone else on another forum said something similar, then
someone else pointed out that they were experiencing the levels in the sdk.

And if you Do have access to the actual BM world, how the heck did you get it?

All I have been able to get so far is the sandbox viewer, ( I have'nt tried the crymod sdk yet)
and the viewer seems very limited and clunky so far.

Taking in all the details that I have so far and trying to visualize what kinds of challenges it may pose for creators from SL I thought of a few possible concerns.

Ok focusing on the dev status for the moment (region / city owner level), what is the minimum
price for buying in? I know they will pay for concurrency need after the initial costs on a ongoing basis. So I am wondering what kind of nut it will be for those considering that. such as current SL sim owners.

Another thing I wonder is what level of tolerance they will have for diversity of design intentions. If people pay for their own region will they be able to do whatever they want on it?
We know that there are plenty of sims that do not necessarily make money in SL yet they are free to do more or less whatever they want on it.
What I mean is I wonder if there will be a quality bar to surpass to be able to make your region "public".

What if a person has more money than talent thus has the means to buy a region, but fills it
with sub par content, does'nt make any money and does'nt care but just wants to show
people his stuff.

What if our preconceptions of what we will be able to do are naively optimistic. As the strategy and structure of BM seems ideally set up to accomodate corporations. There may be
a possibility that what one of our sucessful creators might put out in terms of a region's content may pale in comparison to the content available provided by large corporations.
As I think that what will be available in terms of content provided by mesh import will vary massively depending on the creator.

It seems to me that the prim concept while yielding a huge number of possibilities, it seems
that everthing built of them is somewhat self similar. Yet that does give a certain leg up to creators who excel at creating with them. As evidenced by the number of SL creators that got hired during the rush of corporations that did enter into SL.

Ok on a different perspective, assuming that a SL creator or group of creators manages to create a cool region on BM without being completely outmatched by some company dealing with similar content, how will they make money?

Will there be a market for premade strucutural content (prefabs) for example.
I could be completely wrong but it doesnt sound like there will be much of a market for textures if it is only the minority that will be able to create content.

I suspect that there will be a market for land rentals as alot of people would want to have thier own space next to awesome content. Being able to rez your own house on a plot of land may be problematic depending on the rules held by region owners of course.

The idea that content will disapear if a creator leaves the world will cause buyers to primarily want to buy from those who convince them they are in for the long haul.
What I am thinking is that if BM is a big draw for corporations, which I think it will be due to
concurrency and beauty and stability claims, it may be pretty tough to compete with.

What one of our best builders may create for a region could turn out to look like a lemonade
stand compared to what a corporation with a huge ad budget may create with a team of professional 3d content creators.

Yes, I can actually log into the Blue Mars World server. Not just activate 'levels' in the SDK.

I got in by means of a private project.

No. I do not think so.

Sure these big budget people may be a step ahead when it comes to things like animation because of access to the funds to support the expensive 3D stuff, but I have seen people make crazy awesome things in SL that are equal to what you see on Renderocity or Daz3d.

SL has had professional artist here since the start.

As with anything - people with the most money most often have access to some of the best resources and talent.

I do not think any other content creators in the field of what i am doing will be topping what i am working on in Blue Mars any time soon after it goes public.

Couldn't agree more, Briana, about sex being what will be the biggest draw if allowed. I think that not allowing it would be a bad decision.

Here's some links to give SLers an idea of what people created in real 3d programs look like. Animations can control every aspect, fingers, eyes, mouths, everything. And they don't have all the bizarre idiosyncrasies that the SL avatar mesh has. It has yet to be seen how the avatars of BM will look but here are some links to the potential. It's not hard to see much more realistic sex will become with avatars like this - oh and note the clothing isn't painted on the skin:

http://renderosity.com/mod/bcs/index.php?ViewProduct=66452

http://www.renderosity.com/mod/bcs/index.php?ViewProduct=71393

http://www.renderosity.com/mod/bcs/index.php?ViewProduct=70874

http://market.renderosity.com/mod/bcs/index.php?ViewProduct=64759

http://www.renderosity.com/mod/bcs/index.php?ViewProduct=71356&vendor=276283

Yeah I think I read you mention that somewhere. I suppose your probably under an NDA concerning the project. But can you reveal how you got involved?

Whatever the case it is impressive you were able to get directly involved so early.

That would be a huge draw if they have Daz level meshes for av's. V3 and V4 are pretty
heavy in terms of vertices. So I suspect they might go with a lighter version. I think I remember V3 low res version that was only slightly more angular. I think they probably had thier av's created under a private contract it would be interesting to know more about their
av details.

A huge amount of SL content is created by those who do NOT live off their SL incomes.

Your criteria for "success" is unnecessarily restrictive.

The things Ceera mentioned would keep me from being the least bit interested in being a content creator for BM.

The low barrier for entry into content creation is one of the great things about SL that BM doesn't have. It helped to create a world with an incredible wealth of content very quickly.

Due to the barrier for entry for BM content, it'll grow much more slowly. Presumably, typical quality will be significantly higher due to the higher commitment and of course the better engine.

I doubt BM will kill SL, but I do suspect that at some point, something much like BM will kill SL. SL will have a hard time upgrading to a better engine without breaking massive amounts of content. People will demand products that require much more sophisticated development models than SL currently allows.

For example, imagine making a kiss animation where a body part of one avatar -- say his hand -- knows where a body part is on the other avatar -- say, her cheek. Can't do that with BVH animations, but eventually it will be technically possible and people will demand the results. Hobbyist content creators like me will be out of luck.

So, I agree very much with Argent in what he likes about SL -- it's what I like too. But I'm pretty confident that eventually we'll be out of luck in that regard, since most people are consumers, not creators.

Of course, the price tag will go up as a result. Expect to pay more for your virtual toys. At least, at first. Eventually the market size and zero replication costs will bring down prices on old but still high quality content.

But relying on commercial content makers will slow development considerably, unless the market demand is bigger than I expect it to be. If BM (or something like it) kills SL, it won't be soon. And it won't kill it without sex!

How exciting that you are working on Blue Mars. Can you drop any hints or is that forbidden?

I'm looking forward to trying other virtual worlds. The oppressive atmosphere in SL is unfortunate and counter to creativity in the long run. Of course, a corporate environment in a virtual world would be also, as they usually pander to blandness in the name of propriety. It's at least limiting. I hope Blue Mars or other future virtual worlds will not be like that.

Only thing keeping me in SL at the moment is to see and share what people create.

Looks like SL is going the corporate route anyway so no reason to not try other places at this point.

Oppressive atmosphere in SL? You're either much too sensitive, or hanging out in the wrong places.

I hope they do, as it will open up many options, and appeal to more people, and if it's a world for adults, it should be an option, imo. But I hope they learn from LL's mistakes, and zone things from the start - just like real cities do. Residential, business, and XXX zone. Maybe there are much better ways to do that virtually than literal zones, who knows. Real world limitations need not apply in so many ways I can't even really imagine.

If they are going to do that, then I hope they learn from LL's mistakes and also decide upfront what will be necessary to allow people to do some of those things. And I hope Credit card or other such would be enough because I will not register with Aristotle for love nor money.

So Ursula doesn't bother you?

Value judgments on me as a person are not necessary here.

This barrier right now is artificial, purely speculation and currently right now more applicable to beta stuff than post launch.

I would not be surprised if the barrier is not much different than SL:

1. You choose a region more suited for your virtual life or content you wish to produce
2. You apply to the region owner to be a content creator or resident
3. The region owner checks you out to make sure the content you want to produce is proper for the region and/or that you understand the restrictions and rules that apply for content to be sold here.
4. If you are looking for land, you probably get some different type of access that allows you to rez content purchased in world but not upload your own content (i.e. randomly prim tossing to build and script a widget).
5. As a resident you will probably live under a covenant which means you agree to the rules of the region whatever they are.
----------------------

Now that is the most basic scenario.

OR if you really want to have fun:

1) You pick your RP region and log in.
2) You are given an inventory pack for the game
3) You join a faction or begin adventuring / exploring immediately in an area the size of 9.000,000m2 (about a continent equal to 137 sims), experiencing all types of weather, terrrain, flora & fauna, animal creatures, NPCs, up to 5,000 other concurrent players and whatever else - If you can think of the game, then you can do many if not all the aspects of it in BM - including custom interfaces totally alien to what you are used to - if so needed.
4) The possibilities are endless...

There are some limitations i do not like. The lack of there being a contiguous map to travel between ALL the regions - but on the other hand you will never have issues of "Mainland" and all the gripes that go along with it.

What will be interesting will be the types of regions that go up and their purpose.

It is very much possible as an individual with a small team, to make your own world within Blue Mars and charge a subscription fee - but your world can be total alien to other Blue Mars regions and seem as if it is a game or world unto itself. Your Blue Mars experience can be in a vacum or in a community.

The choice will be yours.

Wow sounds cool.

I'm not clear on one point - will the person be locked into their original region, that they sign in with, or will they be able to teleport to other regions?

Is it up to 5000 people in a given region? Or in the entire game (I assume the latter)?



If people can build and own their own regions it makes sense that Blue Mars would allow sex as one option to choose from.

You can go to any region you know of. How this is going to be incorporated has yet to be decided. However, as i said before...You could join a giant RP region and never ever feel the need to leave it since it has everything you need for your RP life there and more. But you can travel between any region that is accessible.

Yes the number of people allowed in a region is going to be in the thousands...Not 40-100.