adults, playing children, in mature sims

Have they given you any reason to believe that they are any better at writing contracts than they are writing code? or providing customer service? or billing customers properly, or - for that matter - even operating these forums?

Biz-speak types are fond of trying to find the "core competency" of their firm and concentrating on that. LL has outsourced billing, they've got a volunteer running the forums, they let others operate their servers, they have another firm send out their bulk e-mail, they've even farmed out bug fixing to an extremely devoted volunteer, and now they are having a third party tell them that we really are over 18 years old like we said we were. They even have a release manager write in the blog that he isn't really very good at releases yet.

What do they in fact do there? Is playing WoW on the company time considered a core competency?

The problem is not in LL, it is in our expectations.

Sorry, but you sound like the one with the mental illness. Take your threats elsewhere.

To be an *established* contact method it has to be agreed. The blog is mentioned nowhere in the TOS (and linked pages), and I have not entered into any additional agreements with LL on contact methods beyond the TOS. Hence the blog is not an *established* method.

Although the first four posts of the blog appear in the viewer, unless you log on mutliple times a day you are liable to miss a post, for example there were 6 blog postings this Wednesday; when LL announced the ban on gambling, it had fallen off the 4 items displayed in the client (and pretty low down the blog page itself) within 48 hours (anyone away for that week, or only playing SL at weekends would easily have missed it).

Matthew

Would also like to point out we all were just forced to agree to the new updated terms of service before we were able to log in this last week.... Nothing in the new TOS covers age play stuff .... So any changes before this new updated TOS we agreeded to should now be void if they were not added to it.

They made the effort to update the TOS and make us agree to it but didn't add the changes in the blog posts so that just tells me those changes are not valid anymore and are not agreed to being the newest agreed to TOS doesn't cover them.

Wonder what night school they hired their legal team from....

Also to add to the blog debate those blog posts are several months old and do not show on the log on screen. Anyone that joined SL (or was simply gone the few days) after they moved off the screen cannot be held liable for them. Therefor the blog cannot be a form of communication. You cannot expect every new member to read every single posts from a year+ of blogs posts to keep up to date with the TOS.

I don't think LL understands there are laws to obey about being a service provider as they claim they are. Some of those laws are broke in the TOS rules. No wonder the judge in that last law suit said the TOS has no legal standing.

If LL wants to be a professional company they need to start hiring a profession legal counsel to write their TOS.

I think the old saying "If you can't dazzle them with brilliance, baffle them with bullshit" applies to LL and their TOS lately. I don't even think they know what their TOS covers anymore.

I think if push came to shove and LL were challenged on this they'd lose. Not long back a phone company lost a case regarding announcing TOS changes via their website, even though people had to use the website to run their accounts.

Look, I'm not saying they're right, I'm just relaying what *appears* to be LL's point of view, based on their actions. Yes, they should update the TOS to reflect these changes, but they don't seem to think they need to. *shrug*

I'm not saying it's right, just that LL would probably take that stance if challenged. I do believe they need to update the TOS to reflect these changes, but they don't seem to agree. *shrug*

And just for the record it sounds like I am backing age playing. I am not and personally dislike it. Every time I see a child avatar I immediately get a WTF running through my head and a chill down down my spine. Somethings should just not be done in view of other people and that is one of them. LL made the effort to ban it but yet they are not standing by the decision. It takes minutes to copy and paste something into the TOS from the blog but they have not. Even updated it this last week and we all were forced to agree to it but yet nothing in there about this subject....

Yes, it's allowed.

Um, what? LL never said there was anything wrong with child avs in general, just with sexual interactions involving them. Unless you (wrongly) assume anyone with a child avatar is participating in sexual age play, there's no reason for your described reaction. As Mari said:

You may well be right, but in the context of the original question, who's going to go to Court and sue LL for not allowing them to simulate child abuse? Which is the way LL's lawyers are going to make it look.

This is another example of why the blog is not a good medium for policy changes. (Hopefully) there will be some formal process and review before something goes into the TOS. However, the blog tends to be far more informal and this can lead to lax language being used which causes problems (and generally a PR disaster).

There is of course Daniel Lindens infamous "broadly offensive" blog - not only is the phrase "broadly offensive" ambiguous (does it mean extremely offensive which I hope was the intent, or just vaguely offensive with broadly being used as in the phrase "broadly speaking", but the blog directly contradicts the Community Standards (which Daniel apparently wrote!).

However, Robin's posts about paedophilia tended to talk about "age play" rather than "sexual age play" or "paedophilia" (and I think it was really these latter she was banning not all age play), hence causing a lot of confusion about whether child avatars were banned, clubs imposing minimum height restrictions etc.

Matthew

Yes I know and stated such. However I do not approve of it and do not feel at all comfortable with grown adults acting like children.

I have been in SL long enough and seen plenty of children avatars having sex with adult avatars. I wrongly assume nothing. I don't care if they are having sex or not. I have a 10.5 year old daughter and it bothers me fully grown adults would try to simulate someone her age.

However I do not go around telling them how I feel nor do I go around AR'ing them even when caught in sexual situations. As long as I am confident there is not a real child on the other end of that avatar, and I am (simply because no kid that age could hold a dialog like that), I leave well enough alone.

My main bitch is LL's complete lack of follow through.

It goes farther than that. The child avatar thing is just a minor thing. The entire TOS is a law suit. If LL pulled the plug on SL tomorrow and Anshe Chung (along with others) lost a million USD in assets I bet she would quickly file a law suit and have little trouble winning the case even though the TOS says otherwise.

The very reason you state is why LL is getting away with it however. Most people would not bother filing a suit and just move on. Not like it is hard to create a new avatar from a new IP address anyway. ID check? Enter anyone's address apparently.

The problem is context - do the adults considering themselves simulating sex with a 10 year old? or simulating sex with a 30 year old dressed in a (fancy dress) schoolgirl outfit?

One is morally and legally wrong - the other is just kinky.

Matthew

Hm.. sorry in first place my english is far away from perfect to write things about this case,
I like to write... the words are there *smile but I simple can't spell them.
I'am a Child Avi. and please do so and check out my Profil in SL if you like.. I think it says everything.

I think the main Problem from the most User here..
You see a Child Avi in this Game and only thinking about Child = Sex. why...?

If I see a Fury Avi I don't call for some Dragonslagers or Knight to bring him down..
If I see a Vampiere running around I don't look if I have some Cross in my Inventory..
If I see a Soldier running around I don't call Mr. G.W. Bush and ask him if he planing to invate SL for his Oelreserves.

This problem is in your mind... not in the mind from this Player who create a Child Avi.
Reason to be a Child... sure
I never have the time in RL to be a Child. I'am from Thailand.. School time from 8 am until 5 pm every Day sinze I went to school in the age of 5.
After I grow up to 8, I have to take care for my younger Sister until my parents come from work.. mainly until 8pm.
After 12 Years off School I start to studdy in a University... now I'am 23 and nearly finish.
If you ask me.. I have a beloved Childhood, nice Perents, always a roof over my head and some Money to spent.

But I never have the change to be just a Kid... Dress like a Princess, playing around like a Kid do.. and this is what I do know in SL.
My Ac. is 7 Months old. I start SL als Woman and after around 1 or 2 weeks I change my Avi. into a Child. I'am realy happy now how I look.. and how I can act like a Child... hanging out in Playgrounds, playing with our Toys and Pets.... and so on.
I must say the most other Kids I know have the same reason to be a Kid like I have... and thats is the full Story.
Right now I looking even for nice SL Game Perents... to live with them together, play with them as a Family do normaly.... but for sure.. don't becourse I like to have Sex.... ts ts.

Dit you think the other way.. ask your self why.?

Some Adults can't become Children in RL for medical reason.. or the just work to hart in there Business when the are young, and now the time past by to getting Children in RL.

This kind of Adult you will find here in SL as well, and now the are looking for a Child to take care.. just spent there love on a Child the never will have in RL.

This can by a reason (back to the first posting) why you see a Adult Man and Wife running around with 3 Children... the are just happy together.. and nothing else.

I hope I open some mind.. and you maybe re-think about us SL Children as nothing else than all other Avis. who playing this Game for have fun.

Thx
Bunchoo

What can, and can not, be done as a child avatar should be common sense (though why they call it "common sense" when it's so blasted rare, I'll never know).

People KNOW what is right or wrong. If they don't, then they need professional help, which neigther we, nor LL can provide. LL only makes rules to cover their butts in courts (and against irrate parents that can't be bothered to look after their own children).

However, every bit of mess with the ToS, CS, and other such Rules and Regulations from LL could be avoided if LL would simply grow a brainstem, think about all the possibilities, and have ONE person at LL (with exceptional legal, and exceptional public relations skills) do all the announcements to the Residents.

I say one person to avoid the he-said-she-said arguments because of people not knowing what is going on. Obviously, that one person would not be able to field everything personally, but with a small team they could. That one person just needs to be the one in charge and the mouthpiece to the Community.

In short, LL needs to act like an adult.

~Jessy

This pretty much expressed my initial reaction to this--and if any amount of vitriol would discourage another round of this shameful witch-hunt, I'd be tempted to chime right in.

But that would not be understanding of those folks who have real issues with child AVs. Some individuals have inappropriate reactions to child role-play--perhaps reminded of painful experiences in their own histories--and it's ungenerous to denigrate them or judge their reactions as other than genuine.

Unfortunately, the forum is not the place to help these folks work through their issues. There are professionals, both in RL and in-world, who can help. One stage of therapy may involve child role-play, in the therapist's office or in-world; some child AVs are at that stage now.

Nice post. I would never play a child Av or be a 'mummy' in SL because I do have a young son in RL and I use SL to get away from RL stress of motherhood when my son is tucked up asleep. I can though see reasons why others would want to both be a child and have a child here. We are all acting out our fantasies, whatever they are, and there are those who had unhappy childhoods who want to do be a child again to experience a happy childhood, some will have unhappy adult lives and yearn for the innocence and uncomplicated life of when they were young. There are those that would love to have kids in RL but just can't and so here in SL they can live out that dream.

I don't know why SL 'children' get such strong feelings, some on this thread show they really find it objectionable. Why is it any different from those that like to be fairies, vampires, dragons, rabbits, robots etc? It's all fantasy, bringing out an inner self.

There is a big difference between those playing families in SL to those using the platform to satisfy paedophile yearnings and those supplying paedophilia for profit. A lot of the kids in SL are probably playing kids due to having RL experience of it as a child so very unlikely to practice it themselves.

i have no problem with child avs. in fact i think theyre kinda cute
ill also state for the record that i have no problems with people that ageplay, or roleplay rape/abduction, wear nazi uniforms, or run casinos.
sl is fantasy, see. it seems a lot of people cant tell the difference between fantasy and reality.

Because though you may view sl as fantasy, for many people what they play out in SL is reality in their mind that for whatever reason they are not able to do in RL. Just because its happening in a virtual world does not mean real life feelings and raw desire are not at play.

I don`t get into the whole child avi debate, I couldn`t care less until it involves child avis engaging in sexual acts.

but it doesnt involve actual children, so i dont care.
i reckon its better to have them getting off here than sending out to get off somewhere else...

I was wary of the child avi's at first myself. Then I met Mari, her SL Dad Laurance, and their family and friends. Mari has spoken eloquently here on it in past threads. Anyone wanting to understand it should contact her. I'm sure she will be pleased to discuss it with you.

Really, nothing more needs to be said on the subject.

Very good post there but just as some people have a brain and can realize a Av child, furry, scaley or what ever is nothing more then data...some people are just way to stupid to get that..they think AV are people (like their hot av REALLY looks like them ROFLMAO)